New European cup. (Or whatever it's called) Qualification agreed? Part 2

First topic message reminder :

A continuation of the previous thread. For everyone with more to say.

camou - plural of camel

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

quinsforever wrote:what has changed is that camou has been brought to heel. he has backed down on FIRA (something all 3 articles agree on i believe).

  

What a bizarre interpretation. Camou is allowing the PRL a lifeline you mean rather than "brought to heel"

I prefer it my way. if it goes under the auspices of the 6N committee (all 3 articles suggest this) that is directly contrary to the article 14 in the newly approved french Participation Agreement (La Convention). so yes Camou has been brought to heel. maybe by the celtic unions, maybe by the IRB. who did it doesnt matter.

It isn't really though, is it? Remember that FFR were party to the 5 Nations agreement. It isn't likely that Camou would then make it conditional that LNR sign an agreement which contradicts that. The 5 Nations agreement allows room to change the name of the organising committee from ERC to ... something else.

actually, the french PA reconfirms the 5N statement. hence why i am saying that if the 6Nations organisation is taking over, that is a definite backtracking by Camou, he of the many humps.

The 5 Nations were always open to RFU/PRL taking part, thus 6 Nations. The French PA, as far as I am aware, states nothing to contradict that view:

"...........in accordance with agreements for the organization and management these competitions , it being specified that the date of signature of the Convention in managing these competitions is the ERC body......"

I really can't understand why you view this as Camou in retreat. He isn't, or at the very least there's no evidence presented here to suggest that he is.

where's that whatever icon again

3 articles suggest it, but time will tell.

Intotouch wrote:"Camou, he of the many humps." What??? Now I'm really lost. Is there some strange medical condition that the poor man suffers from? Camelugbyitis? Recurring ERC compounded by permanent PRL? Main symptoms to include uncomfortable lumpy growths near the FFR...


"I don't know  Headscratch  I would argue that it must depend on the terms & conditions of the contract, whether or not any signatories could be held liable, but others have argued that should ERC cease to exist then no contract is binding."
Ok so basically this may or may not be a solution and the contract may or may not be binding and the English and Welsh may or may not join the new comp. Glad that's cleared up.

What solution? ERC disbanding? That isn't what is being discussed really. It came up during the course of discussing certain points within the 5 Nations agreement.

quinsforever wrote:where's that whatever icon again

3 articles suggest it, but time will tell.

Aye, better for the British press to portray a retreating Camou, than a weak RFU.

Hey that rhymes! I'm going to write a song about it   

If some of the reports I have read are accurate, Camou has softened his stance on a FIRA controlled European competition. The FIRA controlled competition being talked about wasn't next seasons, but the following seasons, although, I think, Camou may have been attempting to use next seasons competition as leverage to force the FIRA agreement for the following season. This is in keeping with the French PA. It was also reported that it was Lapasett that intervened, encouraging Camou to soften his stance.

you write the poetry, i'll write the music

to the tune of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnfKmNRfLYU

There may be trouble ahead
But while there's MacCafferty fly-ing using his pants
Let's leave the Camel in France

Before the HC is dead
Before they ask us to play with ourselves (!) and while we still have the chance
Let's leave the Camel in France

Soon we'll be without a Cup, saying oh holy fupp, and then
There may be teardrops to shed
So while there's Wilko, and Giteau and buddies in France
Let's give the new cup a chance!

I may be in a minority but isn't it a good thing if (and we don't really know) Camou is willing to change his mind if no one else agrees? I mean he could (again we don't know) have demanded FIRA-AEC and refused to take part without it...but would that make him a complete knob? It's like politicians, value seems to be given to closed minded individuals who make a stance and refuse to change it, never mind new information.

All we now is that 5 unions are willing to take part in a 20 team competition with at least the 5 union teams, if a 6 unions competition can't be organised. That's it.

yes of course. this whole discussion is a circle-jerk.

quinsforever wrote:you write the poetry, i'll write the music

to the tune of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnfKmNRfLYU

There may be trouble ahead
But while there's MacCafferty fly-ing using his pants
Let's leave the Camel in France

Before the HC is dead
Before they ask us to play with ourselves (!) and while we still have the chance
Let's leave the Camel in France

Soon we'll be without a Cup, saying oh holy fupp, and then
There may be teardrops to shed
So while there's Wilko, and Giteau and buddies in France
Let's give the new cup a chance!

   Very good, quins, but you did all the wording for me, although I think I may have worded it slightly differently   

HammerofThunor wrote:I may be in a minority but isn't it a good thing if (and we don't really know) Camou is willing to change his mind if no one else agrees? I mean he could (again we don't know) have demanded FIRA-AEC and refused to take part without it...but would that make him a complete knob? It's like politicians, value seems to be given to closed minded individuals who make a stance and refuse to change it, never mind new information.

All we now is that 5 unions are willing to take part in a 20 team competition with at least the 5 union teams, if a 6 unions competition can't be organised. That's it.

The majority are not always right, but yes, it's a good thing. The FIRA debate can be continued throughout the year without having to jeopardize next seasons competition.

Its all going to kick off again next Friday.

The Rugby Paper are reporting that the Welsh Clubs have signed a deal with the PRL for an Anglo Welsh League and will announced details on Friday (presumably in time for the Six Nations!).

The RFU are going to have to get off the fence now!

Sin é wrote:Its all going to kick off again next Friday.

The Rugby Paper are reporting that the Welsh Clubs have signed a deal with the PRL for an Anglo Welsh League and will announced details on Friday (presumably in time for the Six Nations!).

The RFU are going to have to get off the fence now!

Who's the reporter Sin

Peter Jackson

Sin é wrote:Peter Jackson

Thanks for that Sin, things are coming to a head.

Interesting article - maybe a resolution to the Euro mess is finally within sight.

stub wrote:Interesting article - maybe a resolution to the Euro mess is finally within sight.

If the 16 team AP is on.... and is sanctioned by everyone who needs to sanction it. Then that might be a resolution to the future of AP either outside or inside the ERC. But it'll be only the beginning of a new mess for others. But that's okay. 'Mess' in European club rugby terms has always proved itself to be a relative term. It depends very much on where you live how much of a mess you think any individual component is.

My quick reading of it seemed to show the Anglo Welsh League very much as a fallback position (would it ever be sanctioned though) with the main hope being that Europe is sorted out. I took this to be a lever to force the situation to be sorted out more quickly. This is me carrying on with my hopeful nature though...

Well I know that first article seems to be trying to be all things to all men who read enough of it...but I thought it was quite clear that a contract has been signed between regions and PRL to start up a 16 team AP?  And that an announcement to the effect is taking place on Friday?  

That's what it reads.  I know that later the article becomes less certan about just what the contract says or if indeed it really is a contract (more contract confusion enters the debate!!! - as if we need the complication after the BT/PRL one that nobody got to see either - allegedly) but it definitely said a contract signed at the top of the article.

Yes, you're right Fly it clearly starts with deal signed etc and announced on Friday and pretty quickly dissolves into something else... I sort of (!!) extracted from it that if WRU let regions take commercial control of Welsh aspect of European comp then all would be well in the world. Almost like the contract was being waved about as a last "nuclear" option. As you say - clear as mud.

Well since in all this the rugby paper have been the most full of Poopie I'll be waiting until Friday before concerning myself about this. If this is the case then I'd hope the RFU don't back it (and don't expect them to). Watch this space I suppose.

The real sticking point for a wenglo leauge is the championship teams - they are / would be fizzing angry. that and fixture congestion. Would make the HC fairer with 6 or so from each league. Hoist by your own petard would come to mind.

TJ wrote:The real sticking point for a wenglo leauge is the championship teams - they are / would be fizzing angry.  that and fixture congestion.  Would make the HC fairer with 6 or so from each league.  Hoist by your own petard would come to mind.  

Regrettably, the Championship has had zero influence with RFU and PGB. It may be changing under Richie's stewardship, but I see no significant signs yet. They have been bullied into accepting ridiculous and perpetually changing formats for both their league and B&I Cup. Despite the opportunity afforded by the London Welsh promotion ferrago, there has been no public opposition to the more oppressive of PRL's Minimum Standards Criteria.

Championship coud be easily steamrollered, not a sticking point.

Well since the 16 team competition would require another 8 weekends what makes you think there will be any petard to go off?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

TJ wrote:The real sticking point for a wenglo leauge is the championship teams - they are / would be fizzing angry.  that and fixture congestion.  Would make the HC fairer with 6 or so from each league.  Hoist by your own petard would come to mind.  

Regrettably, the Championship has had zero influence with RFU and PGB. It may be changing under Richie's stewardship, but I see no significant signs yet. They have been bullied into accepting ridiculous and perpetually changing formats for both their league and B&I Cup. Despite the opportunity afforded by the London Welsh promotion ferrago, there has been no public opposition to the more oppressive of PRL's Minimum Standards Criteria.

Championship coud be easily steamrollered, not a sticking point.

The only promising thing is that the Bedford boss has said they will be involved in the negotiations for the next deal (2016)

Seems that ERC has not paid out money due with no reason given & you wonder why PRL don't think that ERC are fit for purpose
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/01/premiership-welsh-regions-heineken-cup
right at the end

broadlandboy wrote:Seems that ERC has not paid out money due with no reason given & you wonder why PRL don't think that ERC are fit for purpose
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/01/premiership-welsh-regions-heineken-cup
right at the end

Did you read the whole deal on that, broadbandboy?

ERC statement: "At the start of the season, the board of ERC decided each instalment of the ERC distribution payments should be approved by the board before they would be released to the shareholder countries.

"The first instalment was issued to the six shareholder countries in October with board approval.

"The next board meeting is on Wednesday, February 5, when the release of the second instalment will be considered."

Where is that quote in the Guardian article, for balance?  Incidently both PRL and the Welsh Regions were still represented at that intitial meeting that decided how HEC monies would be divided this year. Shame that they seem to forget where they were and what they heard and what was agreed to. Lots of bad memory on show - maybe a doc should be called to do a health check.

broadlandboy wrote:Seems that ERC has not paid out money due with no reason given & you wonder why PRL don't think that ERC are fit for purpose
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/01/premiership-welsh-regions-heineken-cup
right at the end

ERC are not the ones having to arrange a bank loan to pay for player wages, if reports are true. Serious cash flow problem for the regions. Suggests that they must be close to going out of business. Apparently on joining this AW league, they would receive close to £1m less than they receive now, and that's not including the money out of the WRU pot.
As for the money being withheld? According to ERC and WRU, it was agreed during the December ERC meeting that they would meet again February 5th, and release funds then. A meeting that was attended by Gallacher. Must have been just prior to his resigning...

Apparently, RRW have a meeting tomorrow, PRL have theirs on Wednesday and there will not be any announcement until after the Ireland match, also a Heads of Agreement document has been signed, according to Wikipedia an Heads of Agreement is a NON binding document.

We're going to Court chaps

geoff998rugby wrote:We're going to Court chaps

The way you say that 'out of the blue' suggests it's actually happening. Any info? Source?

geoff998rugby wrote:We're going to Court chaps

who is "we"?

Being reported by a, suppossedly, relaible source on the Scarlets site that the AW will be announced after this weekend.

Last night WRU made it very clear they would not be changing their mind.

Then again the Unions are saying there is a further meeting next Wednesday, with the clubs, so who knows.

Do get the sense we may actually get some clarity next week one way or the other.

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:We're going to Court chaps

who is "we"?

If the AW is announced it would be
WRU v RRW at the very least

According to the RFU stance their could be more.
I would imagine though the RFU would hold their fire until the above court case was resolved.

geoff998rugby wrote:Being reported by a, suppossedly, relaible source on the Scarlets site that the AW will be announced after this weekend.

Last night WRU made it very clear they would not be changing their mind.

Then again the Unions are saying there is a further meeting next Wednesday, with the clubs, so who knows.

Do get the sense we may actually get some clarity next week one way or the other.

There was already a few of those 'reliable source' announcements that have passed by without the announcement - Friday last being the latest one. It's very much a time for the mantra "I'll believe it when it actually happens"

The Telegraph says there's a meeting taking place today of all parties.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10615829/Heineken-Cup-hopes-grow-as-all-parties-gather-for-meeting-at-Heathrow.html

Rugby Fan wrote:The Telegraph says there's a meeting taking place today of all parties.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10615829/Heineken-Cup-hopes-grow-as-all-parties-gather-for-meeting-at-Heathrow.html

Good, still some cause for optimism...

stub wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:The Telegraph says there's a meeting taking place today of all parties.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10615829/Heineken-Cup-hopes-grow-as-all-parties-gather-for-meeting-at-Heathrow.html

Good, still some cause for optimism...

If the meeting starts with: "Come on lads. Let's all agree to be fwiends again" then yes, there is hope. If the meeting begins with: "We haven't gone away you know. We still want our demands met in full" - well, less hope obviously.

I hope it's the former scenario Fly but I'm not holding my breath!

Rugby Fan wrote:The Telegraph says there's a meeting taking place today of all parties.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10615829/Heineken-Cup-hopes-grow-as-all-parties-gather-for-meeting-at-Heathrow.html

Interesting, Bath to sign Burgess?

Rugby Fan wrote:The Telegraph says there's a meeting taking place today of all parties.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10615829/Heineken-Cup-hopes-grow-as-all-parties-gather-for-meeting-at-Heathrow.html

RRW thrown their toys out the pram and refusing to attend.
Apparantly they want the Unions to have no say in the future.

this is the topic that just keeps on giving

so i guess that the RRW and WRU arent quite as "engaged" on central contracts as roger lewis was quoted as saying yesterday

wonder who WRUburton is going to play for next year then?

he could warm the bench for Robshaw if he needs somewhere to train

blimey - had missed this...O's comments about Roger Lewis's media spin on central contracts. Seems like Dodger is a slippery, mendacious, media-hogging master manipulator!


Ospreys backer Davies denied Lewis's "untrue" claims.
He added: "It's very difficult for us to have any sensible discussion with the union... there's no trust left."
He also said the regions will not heed Lewis's call for them to attend a meeting on Wednesday to discuss the game's rows.
Davies said of Lewis's viewpoint: "He was saying that firstly the regions are open to the idea of expanding national contracts - that's untrue; both sides planned to make more deals - that's untrue; we have a plan on the table that we are discussing - that's untrue; the regions have engaged with that plan - it's untrue; WRU has been working on the plan for several months - that's untrue; the regions originally contacted the union to contract six players in Wales - that's untrue.
"In fact there's no relationship with the regions and the regions have been consistent in their view - there is no system to support central contracts in Wales."

this is bad. very bad. if this were marriage i think it would be accurately described as "irreconcilable differences"

the reasons they are staying away from todays mtg according to Osprey's Davies:

""ERC is run by the unions and they, this week, have decided not to pay the regions in Wales £800,000 that was due to them.
"Nobody had the decency to tell anybody. This was to enable the regions to pay the players' wages.
"The WRU FD [financial director] Steve Phillips attended the meeting that decided not to make the payment [and] did not inform the regions and the regions had to make arrangements to pay the wages themselves.
"We are not going to turn up there as one vote among many and just be like a nodding donkey. There's just no point.
"There's nothing we can contribute and nothing they would want us to contribute."
He added: "We are owed a lot of money and maybe it's a way of the union [WRU] threatening us again.
"They have a history of threatening and using the big stick.
"That's one of the reasons why we no longer wish to be party to an organisation that's run by the unions.
"We would rather be dealing with proper business people who act in good faith."

This is about as ugly as it gets. Regardless of the final result of this (which we might not know for years) does anyone win? Does Rugby win?

How many votes do the RRW want.

They are one half of one country in a 6 Nation set up.

My maths say that is 1/12 hence they are a minority voice.
Its called democracy

no winners here.

welsh rugby is going to suffer. hard to imagine AWJ (captain against Italy) who signed for Ospreys rather than WRU, enjoying handing the captaincy back to Warburton (capt vs Ireland) who signed a nice WRU central contract and may not have to even both playing welsh club rugby next year.

whatever anyone says, that is not going to enhance team harmony.

big heads need to roll before anything is going to get sorted. you cant make deals with people you absolutely mistrust.

[quote="doctor_grey"]This is about as ugly as it gets.  Regardless of the final result of this (which we might not know for years) does anyone win?  Does Rugby win? [/quote]

This is a battle that only has losers.

geoff998rugby wrote:How many votes do the RRW want.

They are one half of one country in a 6 Nation set up.

My maths say that is 1/12 hence they are a minority voice.
Its called democracy

missing the point again.

they dont want any votes in the current setup. they dont want to appear to be giving any kind of endorsement to it whatsoever. they do not trust WRU or ERC. at all. and want no part of it.

The rest of us no longer trust RRW, quins - time to get rid of the regions?