Best Centre in Britain?

First topic message reminder :

So putting it out there to you guys, if you could choose one centre from Britain right now who would you go for? Personally Jonathan Davies for me, great vision, great running game and solid in defence...

Honest thoughts?

munkian wrote:People are dismissing JD2 for his handling abaility then suggesting Tuilagi  ?

Do they not remember him fluffing an almost certain try for England against Wales last year ?

Least JD2 has a kicking game to speak of, seriously people, Manu is more 1 dimensional than Quagmire

These threads always descend into putting opposition players down and inventing weaknesses  

Manu isn't (yet) an all-round centre (and JD2 is ahead of him) but I think a lot of people underestimate his handling and offloading.

That bit in bold is a bit silly.

As an Irishman I'd take JD2 over Tuilagi any day.

Having said that Tuilagi is young enough to improve, but for here and now no contest

international197 wrote:Why isn't there a ROI National Rugby Union team and a NI National Rugby Union team; why do they play as one?

Because that would be terrible. Less craic, less breaking down of political and social barriers, less success for everyone in Ireland, less sustainable rugby competitions at every level, less boys on tour style jaunts to Dublin.

There was once a short period when Ulster and Ireland were rubbish at the same time (around 2007, 2008) where some trenchant unionist types used to stand in Ravenhill with a petition to partition the national team into two sides.

They got almost no signatures whatsoever and soon gave up.

Tuilagi isnt helped by an absolute void of ability around him in the England side. But i dont think he's world class as some like to call him. His handling isnt what a top class centre should be.

Now in Elliott Daly (if we can nail him down to 13) we could potentially have one.

Is there any absolute top class centres in Britain at the moment?

And there is always a problem with players who tend to produce great moments that when they dont its assumed they are instantly rubbish.

I dont want to get into the cross border slanging thing. I do think Manu is quite amazing and there isnt another British center who could have done what he did vs NZ in 2012. He is the best English center since Will Greenwood and if (and its a big IF as it would surprise me if he became increasingly injury prone) he has a decent long career will surpass Greenwood, despite the fact that he will never be as 'complete' as Greenwood was.

He is not at all a 'complete' player. He isnt a leader or a kicker. He spends far too much time in rucks when he could be much more dangerous away from them.

On the other hand he is always a threat, even when the England back line has been pants. His try scoring record for a center is very good. He is I think much more aware than he is given credit for given the number of interception tries he scores. He is very powerful and he has genuine pace, and is more than capable of hitting a gap when its there rather than the man. I think we are very lucky to have him.

This is an INTERNATIONAL thread, not a club thread, hense I'm basing it on INTERNATIONAL form.

Tualigi is dangerous but has always looked very 1 dimensional in an England shirt.

Well Matt Scott was considered by most pundits to be the best center in last years 6 nations - but has been injured, so may drop down the order

Of course as he is Scottish he will never get a look in anyway - so will now wonder off to make myself a cup of coffee

Ritchie Vernon!

Lost in Wales...

In my opinion...Tuilagi isnt in the same league as Will Greenwood...but thats for another discussion.

Matt Scott indeed is given high praise. See how he goes this 6n.

JD2 certainly seems a quality player.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lost in Wales...

In my opinion...Tuilagi isnt in the same league as Will Greenwood...but thats for another discussion.

Matt Scott indeed is given high praise. See how he goes this 6n.

JD2 certainly seems a quality player.

Greenwood was a wonderful player who could do everything. Tuilagi is just a weapon. But he is one hell of a weapon.

There's not many who I would put in the same league as Greenwood to be fair, so no slight on Manu

Best centre in Britain? – strictly speaking that means either JD, Manu or Roberts (or Croft, and maybe some or other Scots guy  ) doesn’t it? Seems a rather provincial discussion. Anyway, it would be interesting to see who got the nod if both JD and Manu played for the same team. If it were for England they’d both play with JD at IC. If it was a straight contest for OC, I’d choose Manu, because altho JD arguably has superior footballing skills, few guys can do what Manu does when he’s on song.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lost in Wales...


Matt Scott indeed is given high praise. See how he goes this 6n.

Unfortunately injured and unlikely to be really ready for this 6N. A great shame for scotland

I do wonder if Manu is held back by the gameplan? He really seems to simply be a bigger better Roberts. can he do more? I have stillto see it adn to become the best you need to look at BOD - who has been the best in the NH for a long time. He has it all. he can run straight and hard, he can sidestep. he has great vision and a fantastic set of skills. he also is great at rucking stealing the ball well.

TJ, comparing players to BOD is a bit unfair. He's a once-in-a-generation player in the NH.

Players don't have to have an all round skillset to be very good and effective international players.

TJ wrote:I do wonder if Manu is held back by the gameplan?  He really seems to simply be a bigger better Roberts.  can he do more?  I have stillto see it adn to become the best you need to look at BOD - who has been the best in the NH for a long time. He has it all.  he can run straight and hard, he can sidestep. he has great vision and a fantastic set of skills.  he also is great at rucking stealing the ball well.

Im sure Tuilagi is about 5'10 - 6'...Roberts about 6'4 - 6'5. which would put Roberts much bigger.

I think in Englands current set up Tuilagi is wasted as a battering ram. But with a distinct lack of creativity at 10 and 12 its a problem. Is Twelvetrees the answer? Is Ford the answer...? Who knows...but with a strike runner like Manu we need to get the best out of him.

Or we go for a smaller midfield...of say Eastmond and Daly that can create but might lack a bit of oomph...

BOD aint british so thats him out of the running

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:BOD aint british so thats him out of the running

Aye, I think we've established that

What Manu seems to do sometimes is spend a while running into people then occasionally will step find a gap and be gone. Just because hes a big lad who is good at running into people doesnt mean that its all he does.

Roberts in attack does just seem to be about running into people - but then there is more of an offloading game and crucially there is his role in defense.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

TJ wrote:I do wonder if Manu is held back by the gameplan?  He really seems to simply be a bigger better Roberts.  can he do more?  I have stillto see it adn to become the best you need to look at BOD - who has been the best in the NH for a long time. He has it all.  he can run straight and hard, he can sidestep. he has great vision and a fantastic set of skills.  he also is great at rucking stealing the ball well.

Im sure Tuilagi is about 5'10 - 6'...Roberts about 6'4 - 6'5. which would put Roberts much bigger.
I think in Englands current set up Tuilagi is wasted as a battering ram. But with a distinct lack of creativity at 10 and 12 its a problem. Is Twelvetrees the answer? Is Ford the answer...? Who knows...but with a strike runner like Manu we need to get the best out of him.

Or we go for a smaller midfield...of say Eastmond and Daly that can create but might lack a bit of oomph...

According to the (100% reliable Wikipedia ) Manu is 6ft 1 and 17 stone 9 and Roberts is 6ft 4 and 17 stone 5.

Manu is the bigger unit with a lower centre of gravity. Who is quicker?

Cyril wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

TJ wrote:I do wonder if Manu is held back by the gameplan?  He really seems to simply be a bigger better Roberts.  can he do more?  I have stillto see it adn to become the best you need to look at BOD - who has been the best in the NH for a long time. He has it all.  he can run straight and hard, he can sidestep. he has great vision and a fantastic set of skills.  he also is great at rucking stealing the ball well.

Im sure Tuilagi is about 5'10 - 6'...Roberts about 6'4 - 6'5. which would put Roberts much bigger.
I think in Englands current set up Tuilagi is wasted as a battering ram. But with a distinct lack of creativity at 10 and 12 its a problem. Is Twelvetrees the answer? Is Ford the answer...? Who knows...but with a strike runner like Manu we need to get the best out of him.

Or we go for a smaller midfield...of say Eastmond and Daly that can create but might lack a bit of oomph...

According to the (100% reliable Wikipedia ) Manu is 6ft 1 and 17 stone 9 and Roberts is 6ft 4 and 17 stone 5.

Manu is the bigger unit with a lower centre of gravity. Who is quicker?

Has to be Manu. I cant say for sure but would imagine Roberts has slowed down with the injuries, so cant say how the version of a few years back would compare. You don't often actually see Manu get run down when he gets some space, but that may be due to the normal speed merchants preferring to avoid him.

Best centre RIGHT NOW .....probably Johnny May.  

Define what a great centre should do?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Best centre RIGHT NOW .....probably Johnny May.  

A great 'emerging' centre right now, and time will tell in due course.
Until recently mainly played on the wing for Glos.
Look at his latest club effort Sunday, briilliant stepping.
His mazy step even induced 2 Perpignan defenders to tackle each other leaving himself a clean final run in.

James Simpson-Daniel.

gregortree wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Best centre RIGHT NOW .....probably Johnny May.  

A great  'emerging' centre right now, and time will tell in due course.
Until recently mainly played on the wing for Glos.
Look at his latest club effort Sunday, briilliant stepping.
His mazy step even induced 2 Perpignan defenders to tackle each other leaving himself  a clean final run in.

He started at 13 and moved out to the wing - wasted skill set? Here's the try...those players knocking each other out gets me every time:

http://balls.ie/rugby/brilliant-breakaway-try-gloucesters-jonny-may/

GeordieFalcon wrote:Define what a great centre should do?

To be a great Centre?   Play the game in every and any department you can get your hands on.  Don't wait for your coached roleplay moments, think outside the structures of your team, outside the regimental box; ...seek out the game and influence it.  

In short - a great centre is a hole finder, a distributer of excellence, a fancy offloader, a player with pace when needed and guile when pace won't count, a rigid defender, a rampaging ground scrapper and ball stealer, a warrior who fights even lost causes to the end, stamina for the game at the highest level, greed to be the best, intelligence not to let greed get out of hand.  

Shorter still - O'Driscoll in his prime.  Turn up everywhere, not just where 13 duty expects you to be.

Phil Vickery.

On a more serious note, Tuilagi when fit.
He has it all, pace, strength, step, hand off, load and a good pass believe it or not!
Luther Burell is also having one hell of a purple patch at the moment as well

When the ABs tour, it's Conrad Smith.

Didn't O'Driscoll once have a poor kicking game a fairly average passing game? He was all about cutting through the defence with his superb acceleration and ability to evade tackles. But he worked very hard at improving aspects of his game that needed improving and became even better.

If Tuilagi and Davies have the same attitude to self improvement and evolving their game as the likes of an O'Driscoll or Wilkinson, then they'll work on their "poor hands" until it's no longer an issue. The best players become the best through hard work, practice and a strong mentality on top their talent.

I think Davies is Britains best. And see no bad attitude or anything that would prevent him from getting even better.

Can't argue with Conrad Smith being the best in Britain when he's physically in Britain.

J Davies might be the best - but is he not injured thus out of the reckoning?

Twelvetrees?

Burrell. The rest are has-beens or injured.

now i am certainly in a minority of 1.

post 6N twill be a different story.

Interesting...so you think Burrell will announce himself on the international stage with some brilliant performances?

TJ wrote:J Davies might be the best - but is he not injured thus out of the reckoning?

Twelvetrees?

He's been named in the squad and likely to be back towards end of tournament but is it worth risking him that late into tournament.

i certainly hope so. obviously he needs to get picked first. but yes i do. he gains yards, hard yards, and 12T just doesnt.

if we get burrell into the side now he could be there for the next 5 years. he's like a tindall but a bit bigger, quicker, and smarter (jury's out on better looking)

"he's like Tindall" is hardly a recommendation is it? You mean he is a donkey who drink drives? Slow with no pass?

TJ wrote:"he's like Tindall" is hardly a recommendation is it?  You mean he is a donkey who drink drives?  Slow with no pass?

can toss small people long distances. is going to be a valuable skill against the scots backline   

Where's the "saucer of cream" smilie!

haha.

i know tindall is an acquired taste. but burrell is quicker, 10kg heavier, picks good attacking lines, and could really unleash a fit manu outside him (those clever rugby league hands and offloads) once fit.

i think its a partnership for the next 5-7 years.

Davies for me is currently head and shoulders above Tuilagi. Much more rounded player.  However, Tuilagi has a bit more of an x-factor about him in my opinion. He's a bit like a young Nonu in some ways - hugely explosive and occasionally tries to do too much by himself either by trying to burst though or hitting rucks when there are forwards nearby who can do that job. He could mature to become an immensely and consistently effective player for England. Wouldn't have him over Davies currently though.

JD2 - 40 caps 9 tries
Manu 24 caps 11 tries

Just sayin..

Manusamoa Tuilagi can't be included in this debate as he's not British..  

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Manusamoa Tuilagi can't be included in this debate as he's not British..  

nor is about a third of the English team...

nor is about half the ABs and wallabies

so england have a ways to go yet before they can hope to get to 1 or 2.

quinsforever wrote:nor is about half the ABs and wallabies

so england have a ways to go yet before they can hope to get to 1 or 2.

http://www.nzrugbyworld.co.nz/features/161/plunder-in-the-pacific

Disgraceful really, but to some extent all rugby nations are exploiting the market

Scratch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:nor is about half the ABs and wallabies

so england have a ways to go yet before they can hope to get to 1 or 2.

http://www.nzrugbyworld.co.nz/features/161/plunder-in-the-pacific

Disgraceful really, but to some extent all rugby nations are exploiting the market

"There were 120 players at the World Cup who were either born in the Islands or considered themselves Pacific Islanders: that’s 20 per cent of all the players drawn from three tiny island nations whose combined population is barely a million." is that true?!? that is incredible.

No reason to believe it isn;t though NZ journalism is not the finest in the world such an important stat must be factual….puts what NZ have achieved in perspective and I wonder if Samoa had the money and structure that NZ have what they could have achieved but NZ have farmed that field so effectively for years and now the other unions are getting on board.

It goes to show that rugby is now a global business like any other and there are few barriers to entry for quality players to move to there the money is, in Europe we are seeing France do the same and Wales structures are failing as a result. Rugby is following football and in years to come the name of a club will have no bearing not he constituent players, the knock on effect on national standards will be hard to measure but it seems obvious to me that if the grassroots are eroded by the market as they have been in the Pacific islands then the national sides will suffer

Staggering to me though that this dirty open secret is now a stated aim of a rugby union but the players are just commodities.

Scratch wrote:No reason to believe it isn;t though NZ journalism is not the finest in the world such an important stat must be factual….puts what NZ have achieved in perspective and I wonder if Samoa had the money and structure that NZ have what they could have achieved but NZ have farmed that field so effectively for years and now the other unions are getting on board.

It goes to show that rugby is now a global business like any other and there are few barriers to entry for quality players to move to there the money is, in Europe we are seeing France do the same and Wales structures are failing as a result. Rugby is following football and in years to come the name of a club will have no bearing not he constituent players, the knock on effect on national standards will be hard to measure but it seems obvious to me that if the grassroots are eroded by the market as they have been in the Pacific islands then the national sides will suffer

Staggering to me though that this dirty open secret is now a stated aim of a rugby union but the players are just commodities.

If Noa Nakataci proves to be a success then we should expect to see loads of Islanders line out for France in the coming years. Clermont already have an academy over in Fiji and its only a matter of time before the other Top 14 teams and other teams from around the world do the same.

sarries already have an academy there too i believe

Riskysports wrote:Well Matt Scott was considered by most pundits to be the best center in last years 6 nations - but has been injured, so may drop down the order

Of course as he is Scottish he will never get a look in anyway - so will now wonder off to make myself a cup of coffee

Manu Tuilagi has been injured and wasn't considered that great last season.

It's BS opinion.

Matt Scott is a fine player, of the English lads I would have thought Twelvetrees would rank higher than the injured Tuilagi.