England Lions vs. Sri Lanka A

First topic message reminder :

Surprised there's no thread on this match given that it could be seen as something of an audition for various players mooted as possibles for the summer tests.
Anyway, Sri Lanka A won the toss and fielded and the Lions finished the first day on 299/9 after a bit of a collapse post tea. Good 50s were scored by Varun Chopra, James Taylor and Moeen Ali.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/695967.html

As we don't have a separate thread, and as we have brought in the younger ones in here, let me mention Sanju Samson and Kuldeep Yadav, who both had good tournaments, are fine prospect for India. So is young Sarfaraz Khan. Vijay Zol didn't have a great tournament, but there are big expectations of the lad in Indian cricketing circles.

Thanks for those details, JD.

You've clearly given Clarke and Barnard a leg up in their careers. As I've told many people many times, I played against Ashley Giles and now he's the King of Spain and (probably soon to be) England!   

Agree with you about Leics being a county for Sayer to get a good chance. I got the impression he didn't spin it that much but bowled stumps to stumps - several of his wickets being lbws. First thoughts are that he could be useful in t20 and limited overs matches, probably more so than the CC.

Lions have closed Day 1 of the 3rd A "Test" on 302 for 5. Woakes 84* and Borthwick 59* are at the crease and have steadied England from a poor(ish) start.

Bairstow failed again and is now averaging 16 for the series, by far the worse of any of the English batsmen and allrounders.

That really does leave things open for Prior to come back , or them try and ruin Buttler by making him keeper for all 3 formats doesnt it. Theres just no way you can persist with Bairstow when his keeping is poor and he cant even justify a place as a batsman in the Lions side.

Woakes and Taylor seem to be the ones most likely to step up. Borthwicks had a decent run with the bat but his bowling was murdered, a player perhaps worth persisting with for the long term but surely cant be considered as a sole spinner.

Woakes made 140 odd and Borthwick 99 in this lat innings.

Woakes making a real claim

Olly wrote:Woakes made 140 odd and Borthwick 99 in this lat innings.

Woakes making a real claim

Especially if he can now take a few wickets as well.

Where do you see woakes playing in the test side? Is he in competition with stokes or do you think he can only play if stokes plays as they are individually a risk as the third seamer in a three man attack?

LivinginItaly wrote:Where do you see woakes playing in the test side? Is he in competition with stokes or do you think he can only play if stokes plays as they are individually a risk as the third seamer in a three man attack?

I don't see why he couldn't take the number 8 slot, with Stokes at 6. Broad, Anderson, Woakes and Stokes as an attack would be OK I think.

Olly wrote:

LivinginItaly wrote:Where do you see woakes playing in the test side? Is he in competition with stokes or do you think he can only play if stokes plays as they are individually a risk as the third seamer in a three man attack?

I don't see why he couldn't take the number 8 slot, with Stokes at 6. Broad, Anderson, Woakes and Stokes as an attack would be OK I think.

That is also what I was thinking, so basically he can play if we persist with stokes at 6. But if we persist with stokes at 6 then where do we fit taylor in given the fact that trot will return. My fear is that the investment in woakes could come unstuck if we later decide that stokes isn't actually good enough on a consistent basis to hold down the number six position, particularly if we have an inexperienced wk in th near future.

The only problem with woaks is that if England have a poor spinne an stokes the 4th seamer isn't ever going to be more than decent as a bowler, then woakes does need to be a front 3 seamer and a genuine threat. Otherwise England are in danger of batting to 10 but only having two threatening bowlers ( broad an Anderson) neither of whine are X factor.
Playing woakes an stokes leaves no place for a real paceman, unless they go with 5 seamers and borthwick which then gets into ridiculous territory like the limited overs side.

With stokes in the side woakes has to be getting picked as a proper bowler rather than an all rounder. Otherwise e he should be cover for stokes

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The only problem with woaks is that if England have a poor spinne an stokes the 4th seamer isn't ever going to be more than decent as a bowler, then woakes does need to be a front 3 seamer and a genuine threat. Otherwise England are in danger of batting to 10 but only having two threatening bowlers ( broad an Anderson) neither of whine are X factor.
Playing woakes an stokes leaves no place for a real paceman, unless they go with 5 seamers and borthwick which then gets into ridiculous territory like the limited overs side.

With stokes in the side woakes has to be getting picked as a proper bowler rather than an all rounder. Otherwise e he should be cover for stokes

Exactly this. So often all-rounders fail to make the grade in one or both disciplines when they step up to Test cricket. Stokes has been better than most so far, but I feel with Test match batting and bowling you need that something special to really succeed.

I am not ruling Woakes out but we need to do it if his bowling is threatening enough, not so we can bat well down to number 9 in theory.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:That really does leave things open for Prior to come back , or them try and ruin Buttler by making him keeper for all 3 formats doesnt it. Theres just no way you can persist with Bairstow when his keeping is poor and he cant even justify a place as a batsman in the Lions side.

Woakes and Taylor seem to be the ones most likely to step up. Borthwicks had a decent run with the bat but his bowling was murdered, a player perhaps worth persisting with for the long term but surely cant be considered as a sole spinner.

Bairstow seems to have been given the chance to make his case but blown it. If Davies has a good season then I would like him to be considered as Prior's Test deputy again. It seemed strange that he seems to have been ruled out without even having played a single Test.

So basically the question is do you consider woakes' bowling good enough for the 3rd seamer role?

LivinginItaly wrote:So basically the question is do you consider woakes' bowling good enough for the 3rd seamer role?

Some good discussion here about Woakes. I've admired his batting for a couple of years or more (and also his fielding which hardly ever gets a mention).

The trouble is though - in my view - he wouldn't be penetrative enough as a bowler at Test level. Not fast enough and not enough variety.

My answer to the Italian question above is therefore, ''sadly, no''. I just can't see Woakes ever being good enough a bowler to be a full quarter of a 4 man Test attack.

However, perhaps, there are other questions to be asked. In particular:
- could Stokes be good enough for the 3rd seamer role?
- if yes to that, could Woakes be usefully included as a 4th seamer?

A lot of ifs coming up but ...
If Stokes can continue scoring runs at number 6 and taking wickets (even if he continues to be a bit expensive) and if Woakes can at least keep things fairly tight with the ball whilst making runs with the bat, they might be a handy combo.

That would allow 6 to 11 of the scorecard reading Stokes, Wicket Keeper [possibly Buttler], Woakes, Broad, Slow Bowler [Tredwell for me], Anderson. Certainly depth in the batting and bowling options (if not the greatest ever quality).

Kidder - I agree that Davies should be considered behind the stumps although I don't think he has ever been so good since Maynard's death.

I think in English conditions (ball swinging and nipping about) Woakes would be more than capable of being the 3rd seamer.

It's when its not doing those things he becomes blunt really from what I've seen.

I'd really like to see Stokes-Prior/Buttler/Davies-Woakes as the 6-7-8 for the Tests this summer. Ideally would like to see Prior in as he'd add a bit more experience with Stokes and Woakes around him, but Buttler is probably seen as the heir apparent. Although, Davies is still only 27. He could still have a long career ahead of him, but he does not seem to be liked by the management but this could change when the new coach (Giles) is appointed.

I think that combo definitely has enough batting, even if Stokes is only averaging in the 35-40 range as a number 6. The question is the bowling, Onions is the obvious man to come in if you are picking solely on bowling but I think the combination of Stokes and Woakes could be very effective. Stokes is a bit of a golden arm, and just makes things happen and this would compliment Woakes's line and length stuff and he would be a genuine threat in England in his own right.

It also gives you option of playing an attacking spinner (I like Kerrigan, but it could be Borthwick) if you know you can rely on Broad, JA and Woakes to keep it tight rather than a more solid, but defensive spinner like Tredwell which may put undue pressure on JA and Broad to be the wicket takers.

JDizzle wrote: Onions is the obvious man to come in if you are picking solely on bowling

Woakes has taken more wickets, at a lower average and economy rate, than Onions so far on this tour.

I certainly like to see Woakes ahead of Bresnan if when he gets selected for various things, a long term he could be a successor to Broad.

But in a 5 man attack there surely room for some genuine pace if Jordan can keep producing or Finn refind his form.

The lack of variety in Englands attack with Woakes, Stokes, Broad, Anderson and either a bit part or workmanlike spinner is a worry

JD - that's a good post as usual.

Just to explain my choice of Tredwell as the slow bowler. I'm not 100% sold on it myself so can't expect you and others to be. However, if the attack contains Stokes (who will surely have days when his arm is more expensive than golden) and Woakes (who, at Test level, is only proven so far to Hoggy   ), I feel we need a bit of defensive nous and experience from the county game as a support act rather than a younger, attacking and more likely (imo) expensive option such as Kerrigan or Borthwick.

Btw, I know people can get understandably touchy about this but do you or anyone else know if / when Dockrell becomes qualified to play for England? If eligible, I would expect the selectors to want to look at him. I'm not a fan at all of poaching players from associate nations but we have to recognise what may happen.

good to see Borthwick pushing his credentials as an emerging,promising all-round cricketer!!

CF wrote:good to see Borthwick pushing his credentials as an emerging,promising all-round cricketer!!

Have you seen his bowling figures on this tour? Hes been utterly destroyed

yes but he's showing progression with the bat, which is encouraging..also none of the spinners have covered themsevles in glory on these dead, lifeless pitches!

Moeen Ali, a class bat and could be better with the ball than Borthwick.

Ali may well get to play tomorrow if they decide not to risk Morgan's knee concern.

Borthwick is not an attacking spinner, he's an attacked to be one. Them picking him as the led spinner in the test attack is like picking Ravi Bopara as replacement for James Anderson or Tim Bresnan as batting replacement for Kevin Pietersen.

msp83 wrote:Borthwick is not an attacking spinner, he's an attacked to be one. Them picking him as the led spinner in the test attack is like picking

Ashwin   

JDizzle wrote:I'd really like to see Stokes-Prior/Buttler/Davies-Woakes as the 6-7-8 for the Tests this summer. Ideally would like to see Prior in as he'd add a bit more experience with Stokes and Woakes around him, but Buttler is probably seen as the heir apparent. Although, Davies is still only 27. He could still have a long career ahead of him, but he does not seem to be liked by the management but this could change when the new coach (Giles) is appointed.

I think that combo definitely has enough batting, even if Stokes is only averaging in the 35-40 range as a number 6. The question is the bowling, Onions is the obvious man to come in if you are picking solely on bowling but I think the combination of Stokes and Woakes could be very effective. Stokes is a bit of a golden arm, and just makes things happen and this would compliment Woakes's line and length stuff and he would be a genuine threat in England in his own right.

It also gives you option of playing an attacking spinner (I like Kerrigan, but it could be Borthwick) if you know you can rely on Broad, JA and Woakes to keep it tight rather than a more solid, but defensive spinner like Tredwell which may put undue pressure on JA and Broad to be the wicket takers.

Pretty much agree word for word with Mr Dizzle.   

msp83 wrote:Borthwick is not an attacking spinner, he's an attacked to be one. Them picking him as the led spinner in the test attack is like picking Ravi Bopara as replacement for James Anderson or Tim Bresnan as batting replacement for Kevin Pietersen.

At this point in his career, I have got to agree with you. I think his only way into the Test team in the foreseeable future is as a batsman.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

CF wrote:good to see Borthwick pushing his credentials as an emerging,promising all-round cricketer!!

Have you seen his bowling figures on this tour? Hes been utterly destroyed

At the moment he's going at more than five and half an over and picked up 2 wickets at 110!

Kerrigan, Onions and Mills among the wickets this morning

Woakes did also play the 'easier' fixture against SL A, whereas Onions missed that game. I just think he is a better bowler at this point and even slightly better stats for Woakes on this tour won't convince me otherwise having seen them both bowl. Woakes's additional value lies elsewhere.

Big morning for Kerrigan. 30 overs and he's gone at much less than 3 an over whilst picking up three wickets. He's putting himself in pole position for the first Test of the summer I feel.

Also, Eng U19s are playing there third place play off against Aus this morning. Aus made 246-7, with Ed Barnard taking 3-22 off 7. Should really have bowled more overs in this game, and potentially the tournament, but to be fair there bowling has been reasonably strong throughout. Eng 26-0 off 6 in reply.

Pretty good effort by the last wicket pair of Fisher and Shaw to get England to their target and win the third place playoff in the U19 : thirty four run last wicket stand ! And ten off the last over   

Tremendous. Great knock from Ben Duckett also (100 off 109).

Also Kerrigan has very much pressed his case with 4-86 off 37 for the Lions.

Kerrigan is a good spinner, sadly he got the yips against the aussies...i hope he gets another chance at some point..

Another hundred for Robson

Olly wrote:Another hundred for Robson

Keeping himself in the frame for selection for the Sri Lanka series. And making the series safe for the Lions.

Still think County form will count this year. But I fancy Robson is in the leading position for the spot at the moment.

Robson IMO will open against the sri lankans.

A rare piece of positive news for English cricket as South Africa win the U19 World Cup

Olly wrote:A rare piece of positive news for English cricket as South Africa win the U19 World Cup

Olly - took me a moment but very good!