CL Last 16

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Some cracking games this week, Barca/City and Bayern/Arsenal. Can't see past Bayern and Barca wins. Pellegrini has said he'll attack Barca and I say do so at your peril. This may not be the Barca side from 2010-2012 but its still a very very good side with players in form currently, namely Fabregas, Sanchez and with a returning Messi back in the goals. There's a chance that if they go in with two strikers that they could get torn to pieces. I think against Barca you have to play a 5 man midfield. They keep the ball too well and will just pass their way through you.

Many people have also forgotten what Arsenal can do with 11 men in germany. as proved on the last two occasions in..

Dont get me wrong they are 4/1 at best IMO to win the game let alone turn it around. but what they did last two times was no fluke.. No way.. Arsenal last CL ran the winners Bayern the closest out of any other team. they only went out on away goals!!

Only because Bayern thought they were already through and didn't know whether to attack or defend being in such a strong position, they won't make the same mistake again. I'm not saying that the games can't be turned around though it's very doubtful they will. Just the four teams between them scoring 1 goal and winning none from four was not a good start.

monty junior wrote:Only because Bayern thought they were already through and didn't know whether to attack or defend being in such a strong position, they won't make the same mistake again. I'm not saying that the games can't be turned around though it's very doubtful they will. Just the four teams between them scoring 1 goal and winning none from four was not a good start.

Bayen best team out there and arsernal played the best against them. Thats the only facts we have- the rest is opinion buddy!

No they had the best result, Dortmund played the best against them, it was actually a fairly even game with chances for both, Arsenal scored the only two chances they had.

Have to agree with Monty here Mysti, it was an odd return leg last season, Munich were so comfortable they got complacent and I don't see lightning striking twice.

I wouldnt put another 2-0 win for arsernal as lightning striking twice.. This is much more probable.

I can certainly see arsernal give them a minor shock at some point in the game.. I can see them really given it a go.

Can I see them pulling off a 2-0 or 3-1

No not really. But they will give it a great shot and as good as almost every other team could in the world..

PL teams are still top teams.. Monty is being to harsh on them In my opinion off course

Mysti just making cases for the EPL sides, reality is, slimmer than slim hope of qualifying. Under J Heyckes they were complacent that night, Pep won't allow that. I remember it wasnt even Bayern's best side with Ribery n Schweisteiger missing. They've strengthened considerably since then & Arsenal wont have Walcott's pace to cause damage. I see City scoring at Camp Nou, however, Barcelona are guaranteed at least a couple at home, therefore it's pretty much done & dusted. United is the tie I can see being turned around & Chelsea will win comfortably at home.

Not really given them much chance John- Just that I can see them going down fighting hard.

EPl is by far the best league not only competitiveness but also quality. Chelsea was fifth best team in the league when they won the champions league. Could 5th place team in any league but the EPl win the European cup, no way. Look at how awful Leverkusen has played in Europe and they are second in the vaunted bundesliga. I have no doubt that if you played the top 5 or ten teams in each against each other that the EPl would come out on top.

A number of seasons haven't been competitive though, Man United in the last few years have won the title by a mile, even when City and United competed they were night and day ahead of the rest. The Bundesliga in Europe this season and domestically has been pretty poor, (though they will probably pick up the most points of any nation in the end) but that's not really a fair comparison with Chelsea, they are one of the richest sides in the world and though they had a poor season then really just concentrated on the CL. Using that concept, Schalke were 14th when they got to the CL semis a couple of years back, could Norwich do that? of course not. It's only the last year and a half the Bundesliga has turned in to a procession, before it was by far the most competitive of the top leagues, they had 5 different winners in i think 9 years, not including Schalke who finished second a number of times.

Monty the disturbing trend of the BUndesliga becoming more dominated by a single club is getting worse as they plan on buying Dortmund's best player in Lewandowski. Bayern has dominated the Bundesliga like no single club has dominated any league since their rise to power in the late 60s. Look at how badly United the seventh place team in the EPL routed and owned Leverkusen and how Chelsea man handled Schalke. One team or two teams does not make a league. Does anyone think that German football will become anymore democratic with Bayern set to swoop up Draxler and Lewandowski.

Look at the players that have come to the EPL in the last few years from other leagues: Aguero, Negredo, Navas, Silva, Mata, Ozil, Cazorla, Podolski, Suarez etc. And the only two superstars to have left have been Cesc and Bale. If anything the EPL is stronger now than it has been in past years and the gap is increasing. I mean when rating a league you don't just look at the best one or two clubs to gauge their strength. You look at the whole league from top to bottom. And in England you have 5 legitimate big clubs that on their day can compete and beat anyone. You can't say that about spain, Italy, or germany.

monty junior wrote:A number of seasons haven't been competitive though, Man United in the last few years have won the title by a mile, even when City and United competed they were night and day ahead of the rest. The Bundesliga in Europe this season and domestically has been pretty poor, (though they will probably pick up the most points of any nation in the end) but that's not really a fair comparison with Chelsea, they are one of the richest sides in the world and though they had a poor season then really just concentrated on the CL. Using that concept, Schalke were 14th when they got to the CL semis a couple of years back, could Norwich do that? of course not. It's only the last year and a half the Bundesliga has turned in to a procession, before it was by far the most competitive of the top leagues, they had 5 different winners in i think 9 years, not including Schalke who finished second a number of times.

what the heck are you talking about..

I am starting to understand your stance- You actually highly rate the bundesliga. It is clouding your judgement. You are trying to justify stuff with irrelevant stats

SChalke got top 4 the season before. that is how they qualified for the CL semi.

The PL has filled out more semi final spots than any other league since its inception.

What the heck are you bringing up norwich for? They could never in a month of sundays finish top 4....... What an unfair underhand comparision

BUt today all I know is Germans 3rd and 4th(Dortmund still the second best bar there bad league performance) best teams would probably get smashed by norwich our 14th place club. That is how bad the bundes has got. And even when you are saying it was more competitive- well we still had way more representation at the top of the Champions league knock out phases with various teams getting there

You never read what i said, i said in terms of competitiveness the Bundesliga has been poor the last season and a half but the last ten years it has been the most competitive of all the top leagues. So when i mentioned Norwich it was a comparison to socal saying that no team in another league could win from 6th (aka showing depth) but if you use that Schalke finishing 14th and they got to the semi finals of the CL the year before Chelsea won it. Norwich are 14th in the PL at the moment and of course probably wouldn't win a game , it was more cause Schalke and Chelsea were so out of position than a great sign of the PL's strength, if it had been so impressive how would park the bus Chelsea have been the only English team to get past the round of 16?

I'd dispute if any of those were "superstar" players before they came to England socal,maybe Aguero and Ozil, Suarez was an up and comer at Ajax looking for the next step, Negredo was really just seen as a good striker and often missed out on the Spain squad, bearing in mind he is in his late 20s that's not that impressive, Silva ,Mata both good players for Valencia but again not superstars, have taken the next step in England. Problem is most of those players are Man City mercenaries, if they had been offered the same money anywhere in Europe they would have taken it, they hardly come for the lovely city or football tradition.

you cant mention shcalke and chelsea in the same breath.

Schalke just got a favourable run in to the semis- and they didnt win it!!

man citeh and arsernal are both top 8 clubs but will crash out due to having to play 2 of the top 3 -we could end up with some more shocking teams in the semis this time around due to luck of the draw as well.

socal1976 wrote:Look at the players that have come to the EPL in the last few years from other leagues: Aguero, Negredo, Navas, Silva, Mata, Ozil, Cazorla, Podolski, Suarez etc. And the only two superstars to have left have been Cesc and Bale. If anything the EPL is stronger now than it has been in past years and the gap is increasing. I mean when rating a league you don't just look at the best one or two clubs to gauge their strength. You look at the whole league from top to bottom. And in England you have 5 legitimate big clubs that on their day can compete and beat anyone. You can't say that about spain, Italy, or germany.

I think you need to look a bit more long term than that since the English sides were dominating Europe the following have left the 'top four' sides for foreign leagues or retired.

Tevez, Scholes, Essien, Ballack, Van Der Sar, Drogba, Hargreaves, Neville and Ronaldo while players like Ferdinand, Vidic, Giggs, Evra, Lampard, Terry and Cole are old and past it. That is concentrating solely on United and Chelsea for a reason they were the two who have reached countless finals and semi finals. The players who have come in don't compensate for that and with the exception of possibly Mata none have had a positive impact for their sides in European competition.

We do lose the best of the best- Madrid and barca snatch them up due to there very unethical way of running there top two clubs.. Bale, ronaldo and messi are at the top 2. Bayern have the luxury of being in a country that produces amazing footballers but the also have the luck of there league at the moment basically supporting them.

But in fairness we do get the most close to the best talent coming because we have more money overall. we have 7 -10 clubs willing to splash the cash and try to compete

The PL has the most valuable players by a long way . we just dont have the top top players- that are at madrid , barca and bayern.

BUt hey it makes for the most watched and possibly best Domestic sporting league in the world..

We tend to end up with players who care as well Mysti, our clubs are slightly outgunned at the moment but we have the heart to try and compete with the best. Where have Madrid been for years? Nowhere because a team of mercenaries who weren't the best in the world just isn't that good, the same was also true of Barcelona before Riijkaard and Ronaldinho.

mystiroakey wrote:you cant mention shcalke and chelsea in the same breath.

Schalke just got a favourable run in to the semis- and they didnt win it!!

man citeh and arsernal are both top 8 clubs but will crash out due to having to play 2 of the top 3 -we could end up with some more shocking teams in the semis this time around due to luck of the draw as well.

They aren't really top 8 clubs though, if they were they would top their groups, something Arsenal continously fail to do despite being top seeds every year (give City a pass as they had Bayern but the rest of the group was a joke). Schalke didn't get a favorable run, they topped their group comfortably ahead of Lyon ( who SF's the year before and Benfica) then knocked out Valencia and Inter who were the defending champions, they also topped their group ahead of Arsenal last year, I'm sure they would be just as effective as Chelsea if they had hundreds of millions pumped in to them, in fact even more so as they rack in 60000 fans every week something Chelsea can only dream of. They also have a great history, but I suppose I'm getting off topic, it wasn't a direct comparison between Chelsea and Schalke more a question of depth in their respective leagues.

Coteh not a top 8 side. What the heck are you smoking mate?

Who are the top eight clubs in Europe then Monty, the coefficient of the past five years has three English clubs in the top eight.

The fact that in 3 CL campaigns the only good sides they have beaten have been a twice already qualified Bayern.

If they are top 8 sides they would top the group and be in the quarters, they will not be so therefor not a top 8 side this season anyway!

That's not how it works at all, who are the top eight clubs in European football?

We will find out when the second legs are complete, pretty sure City and Arsenal won't be among them though.

Like I said it doesn't work like that at all, bit of a simpleton aren't you.

monty junior wrote:If they are top 8 sides they would top the group and be in the quarters, they will not be so therefor not a top 8 side this season anyway!

oh i see you are basing the top 8 on the quarter finalists..

right- so the discussion ends there then does it ..

man citeh due to being a new club (theoretically new) are not getting top seeding's in the cups.. but i think all of us will admit that they are the best performing team the PL has . just outstripping Chelsea and Arsenal.. Man U have fallen but in fact have more chance getting a top 8 this year than arsenal and citeh.]

Citeh and bayern both performed very equally in the groups- there was one goal between them and that could even be put down to pelligrini not understanding how the top  spot was being decided in the final game.

There really isnt much between bayern and citeh in terms of real quality. and bayern are the best!

Using your logic we might as well call USA a better team than denmark because they allways qualify for the world cup. We might as well call man u a better team than liverpool at the moment.

Wigan are still in the FA cup- they must be better than chelsea!!

oh and they also won last year. They must be 100 times better

Don't insult me thanks. A top 8 is pure speculation, how can you have a top 8 unless you have some kind of league format when teams play each other home and away. If your a genuine top 8 side you would win your group every year and qualify for the last eight, something "a top 8 side" Arsenal don't do as they are usually out in the 16. It's both the sides fault for getting a tough second round draw as they weren't good enough to win their groups. So as i said the last 8 are the top 8, anything else is just a stab in the dark.

mystiroakey wrote:Wigan are still in the FA cup- they must be better than chelsea!!

oh and they also won last year. They must be 100 times better

The FA cup is a straight knockout competition where anything can happen, you have at least 6 matches to prove you are good enough in the CL.

and you think that citeh matching bayern in the groups didn't prove it!

Sorry you're just wrong Monty, I suppose Chelsea were the best team in Europe when they won the champions league then despite being the fifth best team in Europe?

The champions league is requires a bit of luck, lets for arguments sake say City got the extra goal they required and Bayern ended up second in the group. They then draw Barcelona in the first knockout stage, does that then mean the loser of that tie isn't among the top eight teams in Europe?

They didn't match them, they got humiliated at home then like Arsenal last year got a great result against a complacent side.

monty junior wrote:Don't insult me thanks. A top 8 is pure speculation, how can you have a top 8 unless you have some kind of league format when teams play each other home and away. If your a genuine top 8 side you would win your group every year and qualify for the last eight, something "a top 8 side" Arsenal don't do as they are usually out in the 16. It's both the sides fault for getting a tough second round draw as they weren't good enough to win their groups. So as i said the last 8 are the top 8, anything else is just a stab in the dark.

you are forgetting about new clubs that are now good but not getting the seeded draw...

seedlings are really odd things mate and very tough to work out.

a case in point..

belgium and switzerland are seeded for the WC. england and italy are not!

however in the euro cup which has only the euro teams . England and italy are seeds but belgium and switzerland are not.

dont think just because a team doesn't top its group in the CL it isnt a top 8 team... speedings are also very speculative

monty junior wrote:They didn't match them, they got humiliated at home then like Arsenal last year got a great result against a complacent side.

mate they couldnt have been closer to matching them- if they scored one more goal in Munich they would have topped the group. You cant get closer- really what are you banging on about. there was half a goal in it

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Look at the players that have come to the EPL in the last few years from other leagues: Aguero, Negredo, Navas, Silva, Mata, Ozil, Cazorla, Podolski, Suarez etc. And the only two superstars to have left have been Cesc and Bale. If anything the EPL is stronger now than it has been in past years and the gap is increasing. I mean when rating a league you don't just look at the best one or two clubs to gauge their strength. You look at the whole league from top to bottom. And in England you have 5 legitimate big clubs that on their day can compete and beat anyone. You can't say that about spain, Italy, or germany.

I think you need to look a bit more long term than that since the English sides were dominating Europe the following have left the 'top four' sides for foreign leagues or retired.

Tevez, Scholes, Essien, Ballack, Van Der Sar, Drogba, Hargreaves, Neville and Ronaldo while players like Ferdinand, Vidic, Giggs, Evra, Lampard, Terry and Cole are old and past it. That is concentrating solely on United and Chelsea for a reason they were the two who have reached countless finals and semi finals. The players who have come in don't compensate for that and with the exception of possibly Mata none have had a positive impact for their sides in European competition.

Players getting old and retiring going out to psture in turkey don't count. Do players not retire in Spain and Germany? Aguero hasn't had an impact in the league he beat you guys to the title. So the only impact player I listed is Manchester's Mata? This is a comparison of the premier league to other leagues. More talent has come into the league than has left it due to transfers. If we applied your standard to Spain then la liga has never replaced Zidane or Raul or Ronaldino. When looking at how poor the German sides other than Bayern did in Europe, and how poorly the spanish sides after the top 3 play on average I am comfortable in my conclusion that the EPL is the best league from top to bottom in talent and competitiveness.

monty junior wrote:You never read what i said, i said in terms of competitiveness the Bundesliga has been poor the last season and a half but the last ten years it has been the most competitive of all the top leagues. So when i mentioned Norwich it was a comparison to socal saying that no team in another league could win from 6th (aka showing depth) but if you use that Schalke finishing 14th and they got to the semi finals of the CL the year before Chelsea won it. Norwich are 14th in the PL at the moment and of course probably wouldn't win a game , it was more cause Schalke and Chelsea were so out of position than a great sign of the PL's strength, if it had been so impressive how would park the bus Chelsea have been the only English team to get past the round of 16?

I'd dispute if any of those were "superstar" players before they came to England socal,maybe Aguero and Ozil, Suarez was an up and comer at Ajax looking for the next step, Negredo was really just seen as a good striker and often missed out on the Spain squad, bearing in mind he is in his late 20s that's not that impressive, Silva ,Mata both good players for Valencia but again not superstars, have taken the next step in England. Problem is most of those players are Man City mercenaries, if they had been offered the same money anywhere in Europe they would have taken it, they hardly come for the lovely city or football tradition.

I did read what you wrote and I disagree, the bundesliga since the 70s with a few periods of more competitiveness has been the least competitive league. Munich won their first title in the late 60s an already have nearly as many league titles as Real Madrid who has been winning the league for like 100 years. And Munich is becoming more dominant not less so with the purchase of Lewandowski pretty much set in stone for next season. Madrid won their first league title in the early 30s, and have 31 league titles since in 80 years. Meanwhile Munich won their first title 40 some years ago and have won 22 more since. The bundesliga has basically been a one horse league with the exceptions of a few bursts of competitiveness.

I agree Man City are mercenaries but they are now winning trophies, morally I don't support their ownership or their club but it doesn't change the results.

socal1976 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Look at the players that have come to the EPL in the last few years from other leagues: Aguero, Negredo, Navas, Silva, Mata, Ozil, Cazorla, Podolski, Suarez etc. And the only two superstars to have left have been Cesc and Bale. If anything the EPL is stronger now than it has been in past years and the gap is increasing. I mean when rating a league you don't just look at the best one or two clubs to gauge their strength. You look at the whole league from top to bottom. And in England you have 5 legitimate big clubs that on their day can compete and beat anyone. You can't say that about spain, Italy, or germany.

I think you need to look a bit more long term than that since the English sides were dominating Europe the following have left the 'top four' sides for foreign leagues or retired.

Tevez, Scholes, Essien, Ballack, Van Der Sar, Drogba, Hargreaves, Neville and Ronaldo while players like Ferdinand, Vidic, Giggs, Evra, Lampard, Terry and Cole are old and past it. That is concentrating solely on United and Chelsea for a reason they were the two who have reached countless finals and semi finals. The players who have come in don't compensate for that and with the exception of possibly Mata none have had a positive impact for their sides in European competition.

Players getting old and retiring going out to psture in turkey don't count. Do players not retire in Spain and Germany?  Aguero hasn't had an impact in the league he beat you guys to the title. So the only impact player I listed is Manchester's Mata? This is a comparison of the premier league to other leagues. More talent has come into the league than has left it due to transfers. If we applied your standard to Spain then la liga has never replaced Zidane or Raul or Ronaldino. When looking at how poor the German sides other than Bayern did in Europe, and how poorly the spanish sides after the top 3 play on average I am comfortable in my conclusion that the EPL is the best league from top to bottom in talent and competitiveness.

Of course players retiring count because they were amongst the best players in the league. I wasn't referring to the league hence why I said European football, is reading English not a strong point of yours?

Also Socal in the timespan you gave for Bayern Munich the last 50 years, you should probably include that Real Madrid have won La Liga 23 times to Munichs 22 Bundesliga titles.

Kinda hope Arsenal don't crash and burn tonight, got some money on them to win the game

Olly wrote:Kinda hope Arsenal don't crash and burn tonight, got some money on them to win the game

What did you get in terms of odds Olly?

socal1976 wrote:

Olly wrote:Kinda hope Arsenal don't crash and burn tonight, got some money on them to win the game

What did you get in terms of odds Olly?

8/1 on skybet. Used my £5 free bet on it

Arteta-Ox double pivot!

Might get battered but got to go for it

Olly wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

Olly wrote:Kinda hope Arsenal don't crash and burn tonight, got some money on them to win the game

What did you get in terms of odds Olly?

8/1 on skybet. Used my £5 free bet on it

That is pretty good odds, just win the match though not the tie I am assuming, because then it wouldn't be good odds.

I am glad Ox is in there he has been playing some great stuff lately.

socal1976 wrote:

Olly wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

Olly wrote:Kinda hope Arsenal don't crash and burn tonight, got some money on them to win the game

What did you get in terms of odds Olly?

8/1 on skybet. Used my £5 free bet on it

That is pretty good odds, just win the match though not the tie I am assuming, because then it wouldn't be good odds.

Yeah just the match, was a little shocked I can see Bayern coming out a little flat.

munich has 4 germans in their lineup Arsena has 3

LastDamnation wrote:Arteta-Ox double pivot!

Might get battered but got to go for it

Seems more of a Arteta- Cazorla one so far. OX at AM Ozil RW

Arsenal can't get out of their own half

nice Lukas, hey we got a corner

What were you expecting from a Guardiola side? Their trying to kill it off Barca style but keeping it.