All Blacks for England

Apologies to those obsessed with the NH showpiece, but interesting things are afoot in Aotearoa that may have ramifications for England.

Steve Hansen has already suggested that the staggering 23 new all blacks he has blooded will provide the basis for his squad for 2015.

However there are a number of interesting prospects who I believe should get All Blacks trials if England deliver on their promise to bring a weakened squad for the NZ tour.

1. Jerome Kaino. Unquestionably NZ's most consistent and important loose forward in the RWC 2011 triumph. We've missed his raw physical aggression of late. Let's see if he floats.

2. Robbie Fruean. With a physique matching Jamie Roberts and electric speed, Fruean has been over looked by All Blacks selectors due to his serious heart condition. But with a new bionic valve fitted, can the giant speedster provide depth in the All Blacks mid field?

3. Johnny McNicholl. The guy shows more toe than a roman sandal. NZ's plethora of wing options make this a hard call. Let's at least cap him before he finds an English ancestor.

4. Ardie Savea. With training from the All Blacks unit Savea has added bulk to his speed and athleticism. Can he pull his new giant frame around and make the impact he promises?

5. Victor Vito. Cover at 8. We need it.

6. Joe Moody. Would've been the greatest Bolter into the All Blacks squad ever had he not had a crazy run of last minute injuries. The giant wrestler would sure be welcome in the NZ front row where stocks are low.

These guys should get a crack at England B in my opinion.

I know I shouldn't but . . .

Where have England promised to take a weakened squad to NZ?

Aside from the unnecessary and equally untrue jibe at England, you can also add the piece of news that Richie McCaw has announced he will unlikely make it beyond 2015 (in any rugby capacity as he doesn't envisage a retirement fund year in Europe though he hasn't ruled out the possibility, which could be shrewd bartering on his part).

Cane is injured at the moment so Ardie Savea proudly announcing he's hit 100kg for the first time is good news for his longevity in the game. Let's see how the extra weight affects his performance around the park.

Definitely some front row options are needed in each of those positions.

Some centre cover would be great. Finish the Ben Smith 13 experiment and put him back on the wing. What happens to Corey Jane.

See Benji Marshall is on the bench and flyhalf was too hard an introduction for him and he might be tried also at fullback as Piutau is injured. Also too difficult so early in his transition. 12 would be safer but that is taken by Nonu and Saili.

Definitely Read cover is required.

Interesting to see Muliaina back for the Chiefs.

jelly wrote:I know I shouldn't but . . .

Where have England promised to take a weakened squad to NZ?

It was a very tiresome little dig but...

1st game in the series overlaps with the final of the AP play offs. I cant remember if there is an actual overlap or if its just that there isnt enough time to ship over and prepare players for the first test - so EPS members who are in the teams of the two AP finalists wont make it. Its also quite possible that some players will be rested. From what has been posted here it seems that the schedule has been driven by NZ not England.

So 1st test England are highly likely to have a weakened squad (and that is the fault of NZ!), subsequent matches its possible.

Cheers both,

I knew about the overlap (the AP final is the week before the 1st test) but wondered if we had made some other pronouncement that GE was referring to rather than GE just being GE, if you see what I mean.

Think we will take as strong a squad as possible with possibly only the likes of Cole rested (if he is even fit in the first place). I guess with it looking most likely to be Saints v Saracens in the final, that will open up plenty of opportunities elsewhere for people to shine.

You're a crack up GE. I like that you stimulate discussion on here but your random WUM generator seems to jammed on England at the moment.

Looking forward to seeing Savea, got high hopes for him. Mils has been quoted as saying he's learning to tackle again so he sounds off the pace. I thought I heard Matfield is back, is that true?

It is ebop. Hoping he makes the Springboks.   

Cool, he's a legend

A legend who's had his time.

True, if you look at it like that. Could similarly look at Mils, Kaino, Thorn. Interesting to see if these guys still have the heart for it.

Interesting that Matfield is back... do the boks need him? Flip hasn't been renowned as a 5 specialist but he calls for the best lineout in world rugby at the moment... its not like they're struggling.

Flip has a better workrate and is what 8-10 years younger.

I'd be interested to see how he goes against the big physical packs i.e. the Stormers with our 930kg pack. If he can impose himself like he used to against us then maybe he can make the bok setup... but I think it will be at the detriment of the boks RWC aspirations.

Think its a bit mean on Messam who has been one of the form players for the ABs last year concerning Kaino.

Test rugby places should be cut throat. Both Kaino and Messam can make contributions but what is fair shouldn't come into it. Foden is unlucky to miss out to Brown if he comes back for injury but if Kaino can prove he has the form he had in 2011, being fair to Messam doesn't come into it.

I think Matfield coming back is a mistake purely from a developmental point of view. I can't see him lasting till the RWC. The halfback is another issue as I think Du Preez is the best option in the halfback stakes.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Test rugby places should be cut throat. Both Kaino and Messam can make contributions but what is fair shouldn't come into it. Foden is unlucky to miss out to Brown if he comes back for injury but if Kaino can prove he has the form he had in 2011, being fair to Messam doesn't come into it.

I think Matfield coming back is a mistake purely from a developmental point of view. I can't see him lasting till the RWC. The halfback is another issue as I think Du Preez is the best option in the halfback stakes.

Not a fairness issue Kia, rather I was suggesting the comment that the ABs have missed Kaino significantly is slightly unfair to Messam who has been standout.... certainly more so than McCaw and had Read not had a roy of the rovers type season I think he would have been talked up a lot more, especially given he was a guy who for a long time, people questioned his quality.

Ah I see your reasoning.   

The more the merrier springs to mind. The more who are better is even better. Competition for places raises the game of all those competing. Look at Ireland who have invariably been without Ferris, SOB and Heaslip. Add in the current players as well as those and some will miss out but having that strength in depth is ideal.

As for Messam, I think he's received the plaudits. There were rumblings of discontent after Kaino's departure and he answered those critics and his performance in Ellis Park for example was crucial. But Kaino is a different player and having that variety available can only be a good thing in my view. Injury can strike anywhere and at anytime so fallback options are vital in the modern game.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Aside from the unnecessary and equally untrue jibe at England...

Not untrue, or unnecesaary or a jibe:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article3921162.ece

"Occasionally in this job you come across a story which defies logic. I did so this week. It is the revelation in The Times that England will face New Zealand in the first international of next summer’s three-match June tour with a weakened team."

And you wrote you scallywag 'if England deliver on their promise to bring a weakened squad for the NZ tour'.

There is no alternative for England and you imply that they have one. They will be without their players who play in the Aviva final. The first weekend of June includes the 31st of May. This was where the communication broke down and the NZRU insisted on that weekend where the June tests started whereas the RFU thought the first weekend was the 7th of June.

So the 'weakened squad' will be for that test on the 31st May and time will tell which players are selected for the remaining two tests. It will be a similar situation to the France tests in June last year where club commitments and injuries saw France start without a few key players.

These 2 bit journos make it up as they go along. We don't even know the squad for the Ireland game in 3 days time. But I suppose it feeds the gullible WUM monkey that is GE.

We do know the squad - they announced it last night.

 

Blimey GE, you're getting chided by NZ posters as well now!   

Would like to see Freaun come good, with him and Savea that's a mighty powerful couple of backs.

Savea looked technically excellent in the U20s, very aggressive, amazing positioning and awareness...but small. Hope any bulking up doesn't affect his athleticism.

englandglory4ever wrote:These 2 bit journos make it up as they go along. We don't even know the squad for the Ireland game in 3 days time. But I suppose it feeds the gullible WUM monkey that is GE.

The really sad bit is that Grey Ghost, sorry, Glorious Empire, thinks we're all as gullible as him. I wonder if he's ever posted something that didn't include a xenophobic swipe at the NH, more specifically, the English team. He's the sort of person who usually ends up lying on the floor of my local with blood pumping out of his broken nose after about five minutes. Either that or he sits there holding his cap in hand, cowed and quiet in the presence of his British masters.

Classy joint your local - clearly not the kind of people who enjoy a joke at their own expense.

nganboy wrote:Classy joint your local - clearly not the kind of people who enjoy a joke at their own expense.

But then, what bell-end would? Unless it was good natured banter of course, which is different to the obsessive and xenophobic bile continually spouted by Grey Ghost.

Well getting back to the many relevant points of the OP concerning NZ, Super 15 starts really in earnest this week after the false start last week.

Things to watch out for:

According to reports McCaw is humming at training and has done some good work in his outings against the Hurricanes for example. We could well see him working in tandem with Todd with Whitelock coming off the bench or v.v.

Will be interesting to see where Ben Smith plays for the Highlanders. I imagine he will be back at fullback to express his free running.

How will Conrad Smith react after a long period off?

How will the Blues fare with their interesting additions? How much gas is left in the likes of Woodcock and Mealamu?

Nobody will be underestimating the Chiefs after their back to back titles but the Crusaders first up is a tough ask. Can they do a three-peat?

GloriousEmpire wrote:Apologies to those obsessed with the NH showpiece, but interesting things are afoot in Aotearoa that may have ramifications for England.

Steve Hansen has already suggested that the staggering 23 new all blacks he has blooded will provide the basis for his squad for 2015.

However there are a number of interesting prospects who I believe should get All Blacks trials if England deliver on their promise to bring a weakened squad for the NZ tour.

1. Jerome Kaino. Unquestionably NZ's most consistent and important loose forward in the RWC 2011 triumph. We've missed his raw physical aggression of late. Let's see if he floats.

2. Robbie Fruean. With a physique matching Jamie Roberts and electric speed, Fruean has been over looked by All Blacks selectors due to his serious heart condition. But with a new bionic valve fitted, can the giant speedster provide depth in the All Blacks mid field?

3. Johnny McNicholl. The guy shows more toe than a roman sandal. NZ's plethora of wing options make this a hard call. Let's at least cap him before he finds an English ancestor. 4. Ardie Savea. With training from the All Blacks unit Savea has added bulk to his speed and athleticism. Can he pull his new giant frame around and make the impact he promises?

5. Victor Vito. Cover at 8. We need it.

6. Joe Moody. Would've been the greatest Bolter into the All Blacks squad ever had he not had a crazy run of last minute injuries. The giant wrestler would sure be welcome in the NZ front row where stocks are low.

These guys should get a crack at England B in my opinion.

Think McNicholl is already Scottish qualified! He looks very impressive so far and is extremely quick. If the All Blacks don't want him Scotland will definitely take him.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:And you wrote you scallywag 'if England deliver on their promise to bring a weakened squad for the NZ tour'.

There is no alternative for England and you imply that they have one. They will be without their players who play in the Aviva final. The first weekend of June includes the 31st of May. This was where the communication broke down and the NZRU insisted on that weekend where the June tests started whereas the RFU thought the first weekend was the 7th of June.

So the 'weakened squad' will be for that test on the 31st May and time will tell which players are selected for the remaining two tests. It will be a similar situation to the France tests in June last year where club commitments and injuries saw France start without a few key players.

It depends which teams are in the Aviva final - it's not a conscious choice, but there's a possibility the team might be as weak as they anticipate. Hence the doubt.

So boring

Why would NZ insist on the 1st test being played on a day when they know England will be missing many of their first choice players?

I get it - NZ won't rearrange their season to suit England - so it's all NZ's fault.  Arrogant much?

As the worlds best team, NZ demand respect and England should be considerate of that, especially as guests.

England are hamstrung by their clubs - don't blame NZ for that, it's just rude.

First test is a week after prem final,therefore lancs feels the players won't have time to recuperate/acclimatise in time and won't be considered until the 2nd test.

Exactly and fair enough - but my point is that NZ should use the opportunity to give some fringe players a chance to build our depth in spots where we lack a little. In a way the situation presents NZ with an opportunity. Why waste it by naming a full strength team?

This is why Ford needs capping, otherwise (unless Burns bounces back fast) his first start is likely to be against NZ in NZ...

Jeez you talk a lot of sense CJ!

ChequeredJersey wrote:This is why Ford needs capping, otherwise (unless Burns bounces back fast) his first start is likely to be against NZ in NZ...

Farrell, Ford, Burns & Cipriani should all go south this summer.

Obviously Ford should of been on the bench for the last two tests - but what do I know as Bomber still persists with Goode.......

If cipriani had a hope in hell of going he would've been in the Saxons.
He will have to rely on at least 2 of ford, Farrell, burns an market breaking their ankles and moving to australia in a huff to get on the tour.

England better hope their wings get fit, they are already on the 5th choice with nowell ... If the wrong teams get to the jeff final he won't even be able to turn back to Ashton and strettle.


Yes it would be foolish of New Zealand not to pick a side with fringe players in. Even a full strength England squad travelling down would be far from their biggest challenge this year and a year out from th World Cup is an ideal time to give squad members a run out. Presumably there's lots of bloke with spare time to give rugby a go now the hobbit trilogy has stopped filming?

Didn't Bomber make some indication to Cipriani to keep on the upward curve and then see where he is?

Sale really had to beat Sarries last week to keep that momentum going and though his passing game is for me the best in the premiership, his kicking from hand was definitely the same old charge down fodder.....

Its such a bloody waste but Bomber is sooooo conservative....

He should definitely go to NZ.

First the guy has nothing to lose, so sink or swim suits him. It's a chance to prove himself whereas a guy like ford could easily be mentally destroyed if thrown in.

Second, he's player superrugby so he's used to the environment.

Third, his style might suit an England side who will be heavily written off and can play with freedom.

Last chance saloon could make a star out of him.

Metal Tiger wrote:Why would NZ insist on the 1st test being played on a day when they know England will be missing many of their first choice players?

Because we are busy with the Super XV, and only have a three week break.

That's a good point.

No, clearly NZ should pull players out of the super rugby in order to suit England's calendar so they don't have to pull players out of their club competition to facilitate the extra test requested by the RFU. Rude old NZ! Haven't they learned their place as bottom feeding colonials who need to cow-tow to their British over masters?

That's what I said, stop copying!

Is it the RFU thats insisting on the extra tests or the near bankrupt NZRU?
Honest question

Don't think we're near bankrupt, not sure where you got that from. The NZRU are prudent and don't throw money away. Hence why it is even more miraculous that we can still dominate cashed up unions, don't you reckon?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Is it the RFU thats insisting on the extra tests or the near bankrupt NZRU?
Honest question

NZ aren't nearly bankrupt at all. Profits are up and NZ have the most lucrative sponsorship package in professional rugby. Suspect it's the RFU who are after all, more interested in money than rugby.

And stealing secrets from NZ

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Is it the RFU thats insisting on the extra tests or the near bankrupt NZRU?
Honest question

 
Neither, It always was going to a three test series (plus a game against the Crusaders) played over the first three weekends in June during the three week break in Super xv.
 
Next question will be something along the lines of How arrogant and disrepectful the Crusaders are for fielding a weakened team?

Saw this on stuff.co.nz: As many as five Highlanders players could make their Super Rugby debuts against the Blues on Saturday night.

Bay of Plenty prop Kane Hames, Otago flanker Gareth Evans and Auckland centre Malakai Fekitoa will start a Super Rugby game for the first time at Dunedin Stadium in the season-opener, while Otago prop Craig Millar and Argentinian front rower Matias Diaz could make their debuts off the bench.

Nasi Manu returns from a pectoral injury, which saw him sit out the preseason, to co-captain the Highlanders along with All Black Ben Smith.

As well as those new to Super Rugby, Shane Christie, Patrick Osborne, Richard Buckman and Ged Robinson are set to make their first appearances for the Highlanders.

Elliot Dixon (hamstring) and Joe Wheeler (dislocated finger) were not available for selection.

Highlanders: Ben Smith, Richard Buckman, Malakai Fekitoa, Shaun Treeby, Patrick Osborne, Lima Sopoaga, Aaron Smith, Nasi Manu, Shane Christie, Gareth Evans, Jarrad Hoeata, Brad Thorn, Chris King, Liam Coltman, Kane Hames. Reserves; Ged Robinson, Matias Diaz, Craig Millar, Josh Bekhuis, TJ Ioane, Fumiaki Tanaka, Hayden Parker, Phil Burleigh.

How does a co-captain work? Does that mean the Highlanders can have two players with direct contact to the ref? Good to see Ben Smith in a position where he can express his running talent. Curious to see this Argentinian. Lots of new faces in that squad and judging by their horror season last year maybe that's a good thing. Will be interested to see how Aaron Smith goes. He had a forgettable season last year and I hope he just wipes that from his mind and concentrates on playing some good footy.

As for the Blues, Marshall has been axed for the solid Noakes. Looks like Benji has much to learn but Kirwan is smart and knows that the season is long and he needs to protect this player new to rugby and introduce him softly into the game.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Is it the RFU thats insisting on the extra tests or the near bankrupt NZRU?
Honest question

 
Neither, It always was going to a three test series (plus a game against the Crusaders) played over the first three weekends in June during the three week break in Super xv.
 
Next question will be something along the lines of How arrogant and disrepectful the Crusaders are for fielding a weakened team?

GloriousEmpire wrote:No, clearly NZ should pull players out of the super rugby in order to suit England's calendar so they don't have to pull players out of their club competition to facilitate the extra test requested by the RFU.  Rude old NZ! Haven't they learned their place as bottom feeding colonials who need to cow-tow to their British over masters?

Bring it up with your man!

It is a shame, but this could be quite an interesting article about new players, and what their potential is etc -

But as usual the OP has decided to top and tail it with digs at the NH again, which de-rails it