Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'x'

[monty junior]

It is kind of weird CS that Duty considers us an elite club and the quality of players (that Wenger has signed) and our CL football as the main reasons, but then he considers Wenger a failure. It looks like a logical inconsistency to me. And I can't name 10 clubs in Europe bigger or better than we are.

Bigger - Manchester United, Liverpool, AC Milan
Better - Chelsea, Manchester City, Barcelona, Real Madrid, PSG, Bayern Munich, Dortmund/Napoli.

There we go. The first three have better history and are a "bigger" club in that respect. The other seven are just...better.

Is that why Napoli got knocked of our CL group. Dortmund is nowhere near the team they were earlier in the year when we played in CL in terms of injuries and we split with them. If you really want to measure we have to look at criteria. If it is "better" I disagree certainly with regards to Dortmund and Napoli as of right now or throughout the season. Dortmund is behind Schalke and Leverkusen and neither one of those teams are all that mighty this year. Here are the teams if I am ranking the "better" aspect

1. Bayern
2. real
3. Barca
4. Chelsea
5. PSG
6. Juventus
7. Man City
8. Atleti
9. Arsenal

So Arsenal are in the top 10, even if you would rate Dortmund who is on the skids right now as being better, which I don't. Liverpool would have a fair shout right now at coming in ahead of us. That would still put us in the top 10 in terms of quality.

Dortmund are a fairly comfortable second now and are almost certainly in to the CL quarters. Depends what you regard as elite, for me the word elite is the very very best like Bayern, Real, Barca even Man U, teams who have a history of domestic and European domination. Arsenal are the level below, certainly no disgrace.

[socal1976]

It is my belief, presently, that Arsenal are not an elite club because of Arsene Wenger*. Whilst Arsene Wenger has some positive points - mainly because he can fall back on the past which may indeed help with regards to transfer dealings - I do think that he has failed in his role post-2005 thus far. This is a period of time in which Arsenal have stagnated in the league, rarely doing better than 3rd or 4th, and gone backwards in the Champions League, with no QF appearances in the last four years, and won absolutely zero trophies.

This is despite an opinion on this board, held currently by two Arsenal fans, that Arsenal are a top ten club in the world and, even allowing for such a extravagant claim, their success does not depend on trophies - something which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I can't make that any clearer.

* In other words, Arsenal are currently an elite club but this is not down to Wenger. I haven't been to bed for two days..does this read right?

You said arsenal are an elite club because of our transfers, always getting to cl knockouts nd financial stability. All of that is because of Wenger so wenger is in your words the reaason we are an elite club.

Without Arsene's transfer policy and the money we were getting for CL it is unlikely we could have built the Emirates without imploding from debt. Spending 10 million in 10 years total on transfers, and always making the CL is what allowed us to build the Emirates without collapsing under the weight of the cost and with our own money. So we have a great stadium that was built on the back of Wenger's transfer policy and champion's league revenues. We have great players most of which Wenger brought in on the cheap. We have steady qualification for Champion's league making it to the group pretty much everytime. And Wenger according to Duty is the main reason we aren't an elite club.

[socal1976]

It is kind of weird CS that Duty considers us an elite club and the quality of players (that Wenger has signed) and our CL football as the main reasons, but then he considers Wenger a failure. It looks like a logical inconsistency to me. And I can't name 10 clubs in Europe bigger or better than we are.

Bigger - Manchester United, Liverpool, AC Milan
Better - Chelsea, Manchester City, Barcelona, Real Madrid, PSG, Bayern Munich, Dortmund/Napoli.

There we go. The first three have better history and are a "bigger" club in that respect. The other seven are just...better.

Is that why Napoli got knocked of our CL group. Dortmund is nowhere near the team they were earlier in the year when we played in CL in terms of injuries and we split with them. If you really want to measure we have to look at criteria. If it is "better" I disagree certainly with regards to Dortmund and Napoli as of right now or throughout the season. Dortmund is behind Schalke and Leverkusen and neither one of those teams are all that mighty this year. Here are the teams if I am ranking the "better" aspect

1. Bayern
2. real
3. Barca
4. Chelsea
5. PSG
6. Juventus
7. Man City
8. Atleti
9. Arsenal

So Arsenal are in the top 10, even if you would rate Dortmund who is on the skids right now as being better, which I don't. Liverpool would have a fair shout right now at coming in ahead of us. That would still put us in the top 10 in terms of quality.

Dortmund are a fairly comfortable second now and are almost certainly in to the CL quarters. Depends what you regard as elite, for me the word elite is the very very best like Bayern, Real, Barca even Man U, teams who have a history of domestic and European domination. Arsenal are the level below, certainly no disgrace.

Fair enough Monty, its debatable as to Dortmund and Liverpool. Liverpool kicked our ass and on goals is ahead of us in league but we beat them twice and are favorites for the FA cup. Either way I would say Arsenal are clearly either 9th, 10th, or 11th right in there. The statement that I made about Arsenal being one of the ten best in Europe is hardly as wildly speculative and fanciful as our friend Duty seems to believe. My apologies for being behind in the developments in Germany. If you are measuring quality. If you are measuring history we are right in there to behind Real, Barca, Bayern, Inter, AC, liverpool, Man U, Juve, and Ajax. Also if you talk about financial strength we are somewhere in the 8 to 12 area and in global fan base we are probably well inside the top 10. The gunners are huge in the States and were mobbed in Asia.

[Champagne_Socialist]

It is my belief, presently, that Arsenal are not an elite club because of Arsene Wenger*. Whilst Arsene Wenger has some positive points - mainly because he can fall back on the past which may indeed help with regards to transfer dealings - I do think that he has failed in his role post-2005 thus far. This is a period of time in which Arsenal have stagnated in the league, rarely doing better than 3rd or 4th, and gone backwards in the Champions League, with no QF appearances in the last four years, and won absolutely zero trophies.

This is despite an opinion on this board, held currently by two Arsenal fans, that Arsenal are a top ten club in the world and, even allowing for such a extravagant claim, their success does not depend on trophies - something which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I can't make that any clearer.

* In other words, Arsenal are currently an elite club but this is not down to Wenger. I haven't been to bed for two days..does this read right?

You said arsenal are an elite club because of our transfers, always getting to cl knockouts nd financial stability. All of that is because of Wenger so wenger is in your words the reaason we are an elite club.

Without Arsene's transfer policy and the money we were getting for CL it is unlikely we could have built the Emirates without imploding from debt. Spending 10 million in 10 years total on transfers, and always making the CL is what allowed us to build the Emirates without collapsing under the weight of the cost and with our own money. So we have a great stadium that was built on the back of Wenger's transfer policy and champion's league revenues. We have great players most of which Wenger brought in on the cheap. We have steady qualification for Champion's league making it to the group pretty much everytime. And Wenger according to Duty is the main reason we aren't an elite club.

exactly.

Wenger has built a legacy at Arsenal that proves he is a success. Now ay would we have been able to afford the Emirates stadium unless we had CL football every year, Wenger managed to get us CL football every year.

A net spend of just 10 million in 10 years and yet arsenal are still challenging for the title, and domestic cups and always qualify for the knock out stages of the CL is amazing and shows just how successful wenger is.

[socal1976]

It is my belief, presently, that Arsenal are not an elite club because of Arsene Wenger*. Whilst Arsene Wenger has some positive points - mainly because he can fall back on the past which may indeed help with regards to transfer dealings - I do think that he has failed in his role post-2005 thus far. This is a period of time in which Arsenal have stagnated in the league, rarely doing better than 3rd or 4th, and gone backwards in the Champions League, with no QF appearances in the last four years, and won absolutely zero trophies.

This is despite an opinion on this board, held currently by two Arsenal fans, that Arsenal are a top ten club in the world and, even allowing for such a extravagant claim, their success does not depend on trophies - something which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I can't make that any clearer.

* In other words, Arsenal are currently an elite club but this is not down to Wenger. I haven't been to bed for two days..does this read right?

You said arsenal are an elite club because of our transfers, always getting to cl knockouts nd financial stability. All of that is because of Wenger so wenger is in your words the reaason we are an elite club.

Without Arsene's transfer policy and the money we were getting for CL it is unlikely we could have built the Emirates without imploding from debt. Spending 10 million in 10 years total on transfers, and always making the CL is what allowed us to build the Emirates without collapsing under the weight of the cost and with our own money. So we have a great stadium that was built on the back of Wenger's transfer policy and champion's league revenues. We have great players most of which Wenger brought in on the cheap. We have steady qualification for Champion's league making it to the group pretty much everytime. And Wenger according to Duty is the main reason we aren't an elite club.

exactly.

Wenger has built a legacy at Arsenal that proves he is a success. Now ay would we have been able to afford the Emirates stadium unless we had CL football every year, Wenger managed to get us CL football every year.

A net spend of just 10 million in 10 years and yet arsenal are still challenging for the title, and domestic cups and always qualify for the knock out stages of the CL is amazing and shows just how successful wenger is.

With enough money a chimpanzee could win trophies. Mancini won one with Man City and no way would anyone rate him compared to Wenger. People say that spreadsheets don't matter and that it is about winning trophies. Absolutely, they matter football is a business and financial health provides you the platform to go out and compete for those trophies. Not to mention that the Emirates is basically the house that Arsene built and long after Arsene is gone from this earth the club will be spinning out money that will allow the club to compete against the best. In our 30,000 something thousand seat highbury as historic as it was we were at a structural disadvantage to the other big clubs in Europe. Wenger fixed that massive issue, or at the very least was a huge part of that solution.

[Guest]

Arsenal were looking to either move or expand Highbury well before Wenger arrived.

It woulda happened regardless of Wengers tenure at the club.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Arsenal were looking to either move or expand Highbury well before Wenger arrived.

It woulda happened regardless of Wengers tenure at the club.

I think the point is that Wenger made it a reality by securing CL football every year which funded and paid for the debt incurred by the stadium.

[socal1976]

Arsenal were looking to either move or expand Highbury well before Wenger arrived.

It woulda happened regardless of Wengers tenure at the club.

I think the point is that Wenger made it a reality by securing CL football every year which funded and paid for the debt incurred by the stadium.

Just to add, not just the CL football but CL football on a shoestring transfer budget.

[kingraf]

Arsenals greatest problem over the last nine years has been the fact that they have a manager with an economics degree. The game has changed to the point where reckless spending is the status quo, and I don't think the Boss can justify that on principle

[kingraf]

also, 1000th post. been waiting for this!!

[socal1976]

Arsenals greatest problem over the last nine years has been the fact that they have a manager with an economics degree. The game has changed to the point where reckless spending is the status quo, and I don't think the Boss can justify that on principle

They couldn't spend it for some time. But there is something to the fact that Wenger will not pay more than he thinks a player is worth come hell or high water, and maybe he is undervaluing players in the current market.

[kingraf]

Actually Socal - Arsenal's frugality is one of the reasons I've become a fan (I do of course use the term loosely) of the club. At the end of the day, these are businesses, and it's ridiculous that they've been allowed to gather enough debt to end world hunger!

[Ent]

Not sure arsenal are frugal, they spend around 140 million a year on wages and over 40 million in transfer fees in each of the last 3 seasons.

They've plenty of money it's just a convenient excuse for people.

Wenger chose not to spend any money improving what was a solid squad from 08-10 and all his top players got fed up and left.

[socal1976]

Not sure arsenal are frugal, they spend around 140 million a year on wages and over 40 million in transfer fees in each of the last 3 seasons.

They've plenty of money it's just a convenient excuse for people.

Wenger chose not to spend any money improving what was a solid squad from 08-10 and all his top players got fed up and left.

Yes and in two of those year they sold a player each year for 30 plus million. Buying 40 and selling 30 million is frugal by big club standards. And their wage bill is 4th behind City, Chelsea, and United good players cost money.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'd take a draw tomorrow. Cant see it being an entertaining one at the Britannia anyway. Only hope is that Carroll is too much for Shawcross, and with Huth out they struggle to pick up the captain making his deep runs and Kev bangs in another (repaid us for those two reds in this spell of goals, still think he needs to play less games over a season though).

Hull 0 v 2 Man City

Everton 2 v 0 Cardiff

Fulham 1 v 1 Newcastle

Southampton 2 v 1 Norwich

Stoke 0 v 0 West Ham

Sunderland 2 v 1 Crystal Palace (Hope you backed Sire De Grugy midweek Mysti!)

Swansea2 v 1 West Brom

Aston Villa 0 v 2 Chelsea

Man Utd 1 v 2 Liverpool

Spurs 1 v 2 Arsenal

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Youve got us scoring Dolph???   

I saw The Guardian preview where they said, "Southampton have won once at home since November, and have nothing to play for..."

Yeah we're losing badly.

[Ent]

Not sure arsenal are frugal, they spend around 140 million a year on wages and over 40 million in transfer fees in each of the last 3 seasons.

They've plenty of money it's just a convenient excuse for people.

Wenger chose not to spend any money improving what was a solid squad from 08-10 and all his top players got fed up and left.

Yes and in two of those year they sold a player each year for 30 plus million. Buying 40 and selling 30 million is frugal by big club standards. And their wage bill is 4th behind City, Chelsea, and United good players cost money.

You've plenty of money.

You spend the 4th most and come fourth.... Congrats.

United have had 2nd most for a decade and 3rd most for 5 years and have won the most trophies in those time periods.

[Guest]

Ent hitting the Arsenal pity ball out of the park, there.

Good lad.

[Fernando]

Anelka sacked by WBA after this

Nicolas anelka anelkaofficiel
Following discussions between the club and me, proposals have been made ​​to me that I rejoined the group under certain conditions
I can not accept. Wishing to keep my integrity, so I decided to free myself and to terminate the contract linking me with West Bromwich Albion until 2014, and now.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Not sure arsenal are frugal, they spend around 140 million a year on wages and over 40 million in transfer fees in each of the last 3 seasons.

They've plenty of money it's just a convenient excuse for people.

Wenger chose not to spend any money improving what was a solid squad from 08-10 and all his top players got fed up and left.

Yes and in two of those year they sold a player each year for 30 plus million. Buying 40 and selling 30 million is frugal by big club standards. And their wage bill is 4th behind City, Chelsea, and United good players cost money.

You've plenty of money.

You spend the 4th most and come fourth.... Congrats.

United have had 2nd most for a decade and 3rd most for 5 years and have won the most trophies in those time periods.

Arsenal may spend the most or 4th most but that doesn't take into account player sales. If you look at net spend or money spent and money received from transfers than Arsenal are no where near 4th, we are probably the lowest in the epl or somehwere down the bottom.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Nicolas Anelka.

Another one of Steve Clarke's incredible summer purchases.

Still can't believe WBA sacked him.

Lolz

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Right my Nodge tips for the day...

Southampton win, Lallana anytime, both teams to score

[Duty281]

Clear to see what the big game is this weekend.

A win for Tottenham tomorrow and the race for the top four is blown wide open. They've got an easier fixture list than Arsenal, I feel, so it won't be entirely out of question for them to pinch 4th place.

If an expected Arsenal win happens, however, then top four should be pretty much sealed.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Right my Nodge tips for the day...

Southampton win, Lallana anytime, both teams to score

Youve got Norwich to score   

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Right my Nodge tips for the day...

Southampton win, Lallana anytime, both teams to score

Youve got Norwich to score   

I've had a change of heart, thought you might pick that up

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'll give you the Nodge goalscorer as well

Snodgrass

[compelling and rich]

Not sure arsenal are frugal, they spend around 140 million a year on wages and over 40 million in transfer fees in each of the last 3 seasons.

They've plenty of money it's just a convenient excuse for people.

Wenger chose not to spend any money improving what was a solid squad from 08-10 and all his top players got fed up and left.

Yes and in two of those year they sold a player each year for 30 plus million. Buying 40 and selling 30 million is frugal by big club standards. And their wage bill is 4th behind City, Chelsea, and United good players cost money.

You've plenty of money.

You spend the 4th most and come fourth.... Congrats.

United have had 2nd most for a decade and 3rd most for 5 years and have won the most trophies in those time periods.

Arsenal may spend the most or 4th most but that doesn't take into account player sales. If you look at net spend or money spent and money received from transfers than Arsenal are no where near 4th, we are probably the lowest in the epl or somehwere down the bottom.

bit of a exaggeration, your tenth in all time list in the premier league. which isnt too bad still but shows you have spent in the past and your wages have always been one of the highest in the league. certainly not the paupers arsenal fans make out

# Nett Spend 92/03 - 13/14 Purchased Gross Sold Nett Per Season

1 Chelsea £951,099,000 £305,075,000 £646,024,000 £29,364,727
2 Manchester City £806,380,000 £234,953,000 £571,427,000 £25,973,955
3 Manchester United £613,850,000 £318,740,000 £295,110,000 £13,414,091
4 Liverpool £650,305,000 £362,470,000 £287,835,000 £13,083,409
5 Aston Villa £349,390,000 £183,325,000 £166,065,000 £7,548,409
6 Tottenham £577,250,000 £413,517,500 £163,732,500 £7,442,386
7 Sunderland £287,745,000 £157,680,000 £130,065,000 £5,912,045
8 Newcastle £373,845,000 £282,125,000 £91,720,000 £4,169,091
9 Fulham £166,561,000 £74,595,000 £91,966,000 £4,180,273
10 Arsenal £435,965,000 £373,174,000 £62,791,000 £2,854,136
11 Stoke City £88,115,000 £26,130,000 £61,985,000 £2,817,500
12 Southampton £144,787,500 £94,745,000 £50,042,500 £2,274,659
13 Crystal Palace £77,475,000 £31,140,000 £46,335,000 £2,106,136
14 Hull City £61,595,000 £13,230,000 £48,365,000 £2,198,409
15 West Bromwich Albion £120,800,000 £79,376,501 £41,423,499 £1,882,886
16 Cardiff City £64,635,000 £31,140,000 £33,495,000 £1,522,500
17 West Ham £219,932,000 £192,282,000 £27,650,000 £1,256,818
18 Everton £266,745,500 £244,586,000 £22,159,500 £1,007,250
19 Norwich City £72,445,000 £50,595,000 £21,850,000 £993,182
20 Swansea City £51,177,500 £29,860,000 £21,317,500 £968,977

[CFCNick]

Do those figures account for inflation or are they all based on just the listed price tags of players?

Think United would be around the £25-30m per season mark if they spent what they did in the 90s in the 00s. Arsenal would be higher up also.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

If you look at the last five years (I think before this summer) then Arsenal are 18th on transfer spend. Wages not included

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Also, if you missed this

[Ent]

If you look at the last five years (I think before this summer) then Arsenal are 18th on transfer spend. Wages not included

They've spent 40 million the last 3 summers.

It doesn't matter about net spend, they spend tens of millions every year.

Basically when they had the 2nd most money they were 2nd best, 3rd 3rd best, 4th 4th best.

They have loads of money, it is their own fault they chose to pay the likes of Denison and bentner 50k a week in the hope they would become superstars.

A gamble and economic plan that failed miserably.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Thats not true though is it? Net spend is a far bigger indicator. If Norwich stay up and for some reason a club bids £20m for Fer and £20m for RVW, Norwich will then spend more in the summer than usual. You wouldnt look at there expenditure and go "LOOK HOW MUCH THEY'VE SPENT!" you'd use context, like you should do with all stats.

Their wage bill would be a better target in this argument

[The Special Juan]

As good as Kompany is, he can be a real liability at times. Imagine being outpaced by Jelavic??

[kingraf]

No Kompany for Utd or Arsenal... Could be a huge three weeks for City...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The Nodge

Ruddy; Whittaker, Yobo, Bennett, Olsson; Snodgrass, Tettey, Johnson, Howson, Pilks; Hooper
Five changes then

[The Special Juan]

Shocking from Boyd, ban him for the rest of the season.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Happy to see Pilks back in, and the man himself

JONNY HOWSON!!!

[Duty281]

Shocking from Boyd, ban him for the rest of the season.

After that disgraceful dive, I'm rather pleased to see City win the game.

Very, very poor showing.

[GSC]

Really thought Hull could've taken advantage of the extra man, but playing a blind player really cost them

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The dive overreactions all over the shop again.

West Ham give a full debut to Italian international Antonio Nocerino.

Adrian; Demel, Reid, Tomkins, McCartney; Downing, Noble, Nocerino, Nolan, Diame; Carroll.

[Guest]

No Remy today, time for De Jong & Cisse to show why they want to be here past the summer.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

If Fulham cant take anything at home against a Newcastle team without their manager and best player then it just further proves they will be a jolly team to wave down to the Championship

[Dolphin Ziggler]

No offence or anything John, but at this stage of the season home games to teams who have little to fight for are just 3 point necessities. Combined with Remy being out of the picture and the easy Pardew excuse

[Dolphin Ziggler]

No  Kompany for Utd or Arsenal... Could be a huge three weeks for City...  

One game ban

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

2, 200 brave souls down at St Mary's in the away end

[GSC]

West Brom 1-0 down already

Problems

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

God I've missed Jonny Howson

[GSC]

THE MESSIAH

Turned my back

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

And we're getting no points this afternoon

[GSC]

And Norwich are behind.

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