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Why Groves has to win early !!!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 7:49 am

Think there are a number of reasons why a long fight doesn't suit Groves..

1. Froch is a very good pressure fighter in the Azumah Nelson mode..With his stalking style it makes opponents work more than they want to...Watch Groves work rate...No wonder he gassed..

2. Groves had a free ride for the first three rounds against a man on jelly legs...Froch only really got started in the 4th and still won more points between rounds 4-9...Without the knockdown how much harder would it have been for Groves..?

3. Experience..Froch has gone the distance plenty of times and knows he can do it in tough fights...

4. Groves chin....It's not the best and a la the first fight when he gets hit he looks to trade..Big mistake...Longer the fight goes the more certain it is he gets nailed...

Of course Froch may have aged between fights but he boxes with a conservative style that more than offsets Groves hyper busy one in the stamina stakes.

Just my opinion....Feel free to disagree..

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Post by Boxtthis Tue 01 Apr 2014, 8:08 am

All valid points. It seems like a battle of greater resilience/toughness (Froch) against technical superiority (Groves). The knockdown in rd 1 of the last fight throws another big variable into the mix - I agree that Froch wasn't right at all for a good few rounds, and possibly for the whole fight. But, equally, GG will have taken a lot of confidence from the KD. It clearly wasn't a lucky punch (given how many times he was able to tag Froch with power shots), so we all know he's capable of doing it again.

It's one of the most intriguing fights in recent memory. I genuinely have no idea how it will go. I actually bet £20 on GG to win by KO because I thought the odds were so good - £110 return. I think the odds makers still have this view that Froch is so iron chinned that he can't be KO'd. Whereas I think its a very real possibility.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 8:11 am

All opinions welcome..

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Post by Strongback Tue 01 Apr 2014, 9:01 am

Groves hit Froch with everything he had and Froch still kept coming. A bit like Yul Brynner in Westworld.

Hard to see Groves improving on his last performance.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 9:08 am

I agree.....I think it will be the same wearing down process..

Think the knockdown and the subsequent jelly legs for three rounds made the fight more competitive than it should have been normally..

Like I said..From 4-9 with a recovered Froch...Froch won more points..

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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 9:11 am

They finally killed Yul didn't they though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by compelling and rich Tue 01 Apr 2014, 9:53 am

not sure i agree truss, have a feeling that groves could win this on points, given the confidence booster of the first fight he knows he can tag froch at will, and bag early rounds. if he fights a bit smarter and doesnt try to knock out carl so much and conserves more energy and/or improves his fitness since the first fight he can easily be leading in the latter rounds

im still not convinced groves was that hurt in the first fight, tired yes but not particularly hurt so not as convinced that froch was going to steam roller him if the fight had continued. and to be fair to groves, most people would be knackered in that fight it was non stop

if he fights a smarter game plan and doesnt let the agro between them effect him, groves points win for me.


Last edited by compelling and rich on Tue 01 Apr 2014, 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Boxtthis Tue 01 Apr 2014, 9:54 am

Strongback wrote:Groves hit Froch with everything he had and Froch still kept coming. A bit like Yul Brynner in Westworld.

Hard to see Groves improving on his last performance.

It's a fair enough assessment. But, I personally don't think GG really hit Froch 'with everything he had'. I think GG was stopped at the very first sign of trouble and he wasn't given the chance to empty the tank or to catch a second wind. I know others see it differently and think it was inevitable that he was getting stopped. I don't think he was in that much trouble.

I agree with the broad argument here. GG has his best chance of a stoppage early, and Froch is likely to come on strong if he doesn't get it. But, I don't think there's anything to stop Groves continuing to outbox Froch over 12, even under pressure. To be honest, it's exciting to even consider that Froch may be KO'd. It's something that wasn't getting talked about at all before the first fight. It really adds a big dimension to the whole thing.

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Post by aja424 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 9:58 am

To be competitive in the championship rounds GG has to save a little. Only problem with that is to save a little you have to give less, and it was the work rate that allowed GG to build up a lead in the first place.
All the speculation and theories aside I cannot wait for this fight, just worried I wont be able to watch as im in Turkey at the time and 2hrs ahead of the UK.

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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:03 am

If Groves paces himself and outboxes Froch for long periods, Froch will try and come of strong at the end and there's a possibility that he gets stopped late. Even a shattered Kessler had Froch on silly street in the last round of their fight and had he anything left in the tank might have embarrassed Froch at the end.

Groves will have to weather a few storms but as long as he keeps him composure, he should be able to prevail at the end.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:04 am

I thought Groves was on the verge of being properly stopped compelling..

Agree Aja that Groves is likely to produce less volume....

Problem is it was the volume that kept Froch st bay!!

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Post by rodders Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:05 am

Probably the only positive Froch can take from the first fight (other than the result) is that he was getting stronger and Groves was fading badly by the middle rounds.

Unless Froch's punch resistance has gone drastically downhill since the first fight I don't think Groves can KO him.

Therefore he might be better served pacing himself a bit more and picking Froch off with his superior hand speed, than trying to take him out early.

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Post by compelling and rich Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:07 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I thought Groves was on the verge of being properly stopped compelling..

Agree Aja that Groves is likely to produce less volume....

Problem is it was the volume that kept Froch st bay!!

matter of opinion i suppose truss, ive seen plenty of people agree with you but not for me more of a case of being really tired

slight tweak in more accuracy and less volume think will still work the same, felt like both were trying to take each others head off during the first fight, especially as groves got carried away because he knew he could hurt him. think it may be more controlled second time around

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:10 am

Interesting points Rod..But like I say I think it was the volume more than the Boxing ability Froch struggled with..


We all saw and took out different thinks from the first fight it seems..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:10 am

Groves is caught between a rock and a hard place with what tactics to use, he does the same as last time and risks gassing again or he conserves energy and runs the risk of being steamrollered early.

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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:30 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Groves is caught between a rock and a hard place with what tactics to use, he does the same as last time and risks gassing again or he conserves energy and runs the risk of being steamrollered early.
Just a wild and crazy thought but perhaps Groves is working on his supposed stamina issues during training.

Froch prides himself of his conditioning (let's face it, it's got him through some tough fights) and this one might come down to who can outlast his man even though I still feel that Groves has enough all round ability to do a better job than last time and win with something to spare.

Mentally Grove's thinking, "I can be even better than last time"

Frock is thinking "I can't be any worse than last time...can I?"

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:30 am

I think he might be neither here nor there with his tactics...Whereas Froch fights like he always does..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:33 am

Not sure I agree Dave....

Groves had the element of surprise first time...

Maybe he thinks "Did I lose the winning lottery ticket"..

Groves for my money should have gone for the kill in the first three rounds..

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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:34 am

Nice points, Truss.

That said, I disagree with the idea that Groves was effectively given a free licence to do what he wanted in the first few rounds because Froch was apparently on wobbly legs for the next fifteen minutes or so because of the knockdown. Seems an easy and convenient way to write off how badly Froch was getting banjoed and downplay Groves' performance. If his legs were still as rubbery as some claim for the next few rounds then I don't think he'd have stood up to the punishment that Groves dished out, personally.

Froch has a history of being a slow starter and not really getting a foothold in fights until, say, the fifth round or so and for me this was just a continuation of that. When someone's that much quicker than you it tends to show most emphatically early on before you've managed to build up any sense of timing and anticipation for what's coming.

Agree with the general premise that, the longer the fight goes, the better Froch's chances get as he's almost always better / busier than his opponent in the championship rounds of fights (even the ones he's lost) and Groves has admitted to shooting his bolt a few times in the past, and you could argue he might have done it in the first fight too. But I don't necessarily think that Groves has to panic about getting the job done early or make that his sole aim. For me, he dominated Froch so comprehensively for seven rounds that he should be able to look at that and think that he can tone it down a bit, conserve a bit of energy and still be good enough to build up a decent points lead.

But as others have said, it's a very, very open fight and, aside from a Froch points win, I think a whole load of scenarios are possible on either side.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:35 am

DAVE667 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Groves is caught between a rock and a hard place with what tactics to use, he does the same as last time and risks gassing again or he conserves energy and runs the risk of being steamrollered early.
Just a wild and crazy thought but perhaps Groves is working on his supposed stamina issues during training.

Froch prides himself of his conditioning (let's face it, it's got him through some tough fights) and this one might come down to who can outlast his man even though I still feel that Groves has enough all round ability to do a better job than last time and win with something to spare.

Mentally Grove's thinking, "I can be even better than last time"

Frock is thinking "I can't be any worse than last time...can I?"
Not that easy Dave, if he was gassing in the biggest fight of his career then that suggests to me his stamina issues are physiological rather than not putting the work in in training.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:40 am

I'm not writing off Froch's performance but watching the rerun shows how unsteady he was on his legs..Till the 4th

I thought Groves was superb but..

I think the knockdown weighed heavily in his early dominance..

I also believe he fought his best fight and still came up short.

But I'm not trying to belittle Groves who shocked us all..

Like I said we all see different things...


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Post by rodders Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:48 am

I think this is a really intriguing rematch because in reality both fighters need to come up with something different than the first fight.

Groves needs to work out how to either finish Froch early or else pace himself for the 12 rounds. I think he'll approach it more cautiously and fight more on the back foot.

Froch needs to work out how to avoid Groves hitting him in the face at will, in the early rounds at least and hope that his recovery powers haven't waned otherwise he could get KO'd.
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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:57 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Groves is caught between a rock and a hard place with what tactics to use, he does the same as last time and risks gassing again or he conserves energy and runs the risk of being steamrollered early.
Just a wild and crazy thought but perhaps Groves is working on his supposed stamina issues during training.

Froch prides himself of his conditioning (let's face it, it's got him through some tough fights) and this one might come down to who can outlast his man even though I still feel that Groves has enough all round ability to do a better job than last time and win with something to spare.

Mentally Grove's thinking, "I can be even better than last time"

Frock is thinking "I can't be any worse than last time...can I?"
Not that easy Dave, if he was gassing in the biggest fight of his career then that suggests to me his stamina issues are physiological rather than not putting the work in in training.
Depends on whether or not you think he actually gassed and as far as I'm concerned, there's no flaw in Groves' psychological make-up that would cause him to "Do a David Price"

For me, gassing is running out of steam considerably earlier than one would expect. What we had was a high intensity fight with both fighters throwing leather. I saw Groves being tired but no more so than Froch (or any other fighter who's expended a lot of energy). Had Groves been blowing out of his ar$e by round three I'd agree that he had issues but I genuinely don't see what you're seeing.

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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 10:58 am

Fair points, Truss. As you say, we see stuff differently at times.

I guess what confuses me is the idea that Groves can't improve on his performance last time. Why not? He's just turned 26, only 20 fights in to his career and having only just moved to the top level. He is (or at the very least, should be) still evolving as a fighter. He's also shown that he's a smart fighter who learns from previous mistakes / poor showings in the past.

Any evolving that Froch has done or will ever do now is behind him, in contrast.

To me, all of that suggests that it's Groves who should be able to make more improvements on his first showing than Froch, rather than it being the other way around. There's no guarantee that Groves will make those improvements, which is why Froch still has an excellent chance of keeping the belts, but the overwhelming evidence tells me that, even if he does respect Groves' power and all-round ability a bit more, Froch is still going to be unable to stop Groves' right from clobbering him time and again, will still be slower of hand and foot and will still struggle with the range early on.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:00 am

His workrate wasn't sufficient enough to be gassing in the 8th round as he appeared to be, that is a physiological problem not a psychological problem.

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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:07 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:His workrate wasn't sufficient enough to be gassing in the 8th round as he appeared to be, that is a physiological problem not a psychological problem.
Jesus Christ you're a hard task master. I don't know what fight you were watching but to say Groves wasn't putting in enough effort seems a tad unfair. Still, seems you have you opinion and I have mine so I'll not waste time going back and forth with it

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Post by compelling and rich Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:09 am

88Chris05 wrote:Fair points, Truss. As you say, we see stuff differently at times.

I guess what confuses me is the idea that Groves can't improve on his performance last time. Why not? He's just turned 26, only 20 fights in to his career and having only just moved to the top level. He is (or at the very least, should be) still evolving as a fighter. He's also shown that he's a smart fighter who learns from previous mistakes / poor showings in the past.

Any evolving that Froch has done or will ever do now is behind him, in contrast.

To me, all of that suggests that it's Groves who should be able to make more improvements on his first showing than Froch, rather than it being the other way around. There's no guarantee that Groves will make those improvements, which is why Froch still has an excellent chance of keeping the belts, but the overwhelming evidence tells me that, even if he does respect Groves' power and all-round ability a bit more, Froch is still going to be unable to stop Groves' right from clobbering him time and again, will still be slower of hand and foot and will still struggle with the range early on.

the only counter to that could be that froch really did take groves lightly first time around like he's trying to claim and couldn't get up for it, cant see it myself just excuse making from froch

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Post by hogey Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:11 am

Actually think Groves can win this fairly easily if he just paces himself, if he doesn't go looking for the knock out and just uses his much better skills and speed its hard to see Froch's plodding style getting near him. The knockout might come anyway, but he needs to make sure he is just doing enough to take every round and there will only be one winner. Froch at 37 off that beating is likely to have slipped a bit more this time and is not a one punch KO artist so the fight will be won and lost based on how well Groves can keep his discipline, for me Froch only has a chance if Groves fights the wrong fight.

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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:12 am

88Chris05 wrote:Fair points, Truss. As you say, we see stuff differently at times.

I guess what confuses me is the idea that Groves can't improve on his performance last time. Why not? He's just turned 26, only 20 fights in to his career and having only just moved to the top level. He is (or at the very least, should be) still evolving as a fighter. He's also shown that he's a smart fighter who learns from previous mistakes / poor showings in the past.

Any evolving that Froch has done or will ever do now is behind him, in contrast.

To me, all of that suggests that it's Groves who should be able to make more improvements on his first showing than Froch, rather than it being the other way around. There's no guarantee that Groves will make those improvements, which is why Froch still has an excellent chance of keeping the belts, but the overwhelming evidence tells me that, even if he does respect Groves' power and all-round ability a bit more, Froch is still going to be unable to stop Groves' right from clobbering him time and again, will still be slower of hand and foot and will still struggle with the range early on.
I agree, there's nothing to suggest Groves hasn't continued to improve as a fighter or has even stagnated/plateaued. Fighters like Alex Arthur and John Murray made decent progress early in their careers and then just seemed to level off yet there's been nothing like that from Groves and it seems a pretty baseless assumption that the first fight with Froch is as good as he's going to get.

Don't get me wrong, Groves may very well have fought the best fight you'll ever see from him but what is it based on?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:14 am

Agree to an extent...I can see self acclaimed 4-time champion Froch taking no-name Groves lightly though..

Though Groves apart from the work rate did fight a great fight..

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Post by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:17 am

You mention rounds 4-9 Truss, I dont know how anybody could have given Froch ANY rounds apart from maybe the 7th and 8th. The 6th rounds he got caught up in an exchange with Groves which he almost got decapitated.

And before that he looked awful.

Groves is faster, better head movement, better footwork, out of both in the first fight it looks like better power as well. I think Groves might make this look easy second time around if he sticks to a plan. I don't see what Froch can do to imporve whereas I can see loads where George can.
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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:17 am

compelling and rich wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:Fair points, Truss. As you say, we see stuff differently at times.

I guess what confuses me is the idea that Groves can't improve on his performance last time. Why not? He's just turned 26, only 20 fights in to his career and having only just moved to the top level. He is (or at the very least, should be) still evolving as a fighter. He's also shown that he's a smart fighter who learns from previous mistakes / poor showings in the past.

Any evolving that Froch has done or will ever do now is behind him, in contrast.

To me, all of that suggests that it's Groves who should be able to make more improvements on his first showing than Froch, rather than it being the other way around. There's no guarantee that Groves will make those improvements, which is why Froch still has an excellent chance of keeping the belts, but the overwhelming evidence tells me that, even if he does respect Groves' power and all-round ability a bit more, Froch is still going to be unable to stop Groves' right from clobbering him time and again, will still be slower of hand and foot and will still struggle with the range early on.

the only  counter to that could be that froch really did take groves lightly first time around like he's trying to claim and couldn't get up for it, cant see it myself just excuse making from froch
Are we expected to believe that Froch was more concerned by the threat posed but Yusef Mack posed and just dismissed Groves out of hand? Froch for all his flaws and faults doesn't do half measures when it comes to preparation or mental attitude. He didn't want the Groves fight but knew full well that failure to beat him would mean he could kiss a rematch with Ward goodbye so there's no way Froch took Groves lightly or took his eye off the ball. Put simply, Groves is a bloody good fighter and there's every chance we'll see in May that he's a better fighter than Froch.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:17 am

If GG can drop him 2-3 times (which I think he can, I just don't think he can stop him) then I can see GG winning on points.

His issue on points is, as stated, Froch's ability to come on strong, but if he can hear the final bell I see no reason why the better boxer can't take the UD.

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Post by Boxtthis Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:17 am

So the general consensus seems to be: Groves should pace himself a bit more, but this will make him more vulnerable because you really need to work hard to keep someone like Froch off of you.

So many interesting narratives in this one.

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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:20 am

Boxtthis wrote:So the general consensus seems to be: Groves should pace himself a bit more, but this will make him more vulnerable because you really need to work hard to keep someone like Froch off of you.

So many interesting narratives in this one.
No, I think Froch can be outboxed quite comfortably however, if you stay in range and let him get close, you'll end up being made to work. Good footwork and smart fighting should be enough to keep him off balance and yourself out of harm's way.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:22 am

I think Froch is getting massively undersold here, if he was that easy to outbox for 12 rounds then Dirrell, Taylor and Groves would all have waltzed to victory but they didn't.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:24 am

I gave Froch three rounds from the 4th onwards.

Had it 77-74.....When it was stopped..

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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:28 am

Well outside of getting stopped late Taylor would have won by three or four rounds on the cards. Ward made him look pedestrian for the majority of the fight.

Froch is easy to OUTBOX but he does have the ability to drag opponents into a FIGHT and that's Froch's forte. If you can avoid getting dragged into the trenches (cos that's what Warriors do they drag...oh stop it!) you make you're life a damn sight easier.

Ward said he was amazed how easy the fight was and the only reason he mixed it up with Froch was to prove to people that he can fight at range, mid range and up close. He hardly broke sweat that night.

Not under-selling Froch, he's good at what he does but apart from the Abraham fight, he pretty fights the same way and a smart fighter should be able to negate/nullify that aspect of his game.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:33 am

If Taylor hadn't gassed, if Groves hadn't gassed and if Dirrell hadn't run away you're right they would have all beaten Froch but he dragged them down to his level. Suggesting that Groves can only lose if he's the architect of his own downfall is quite insulting to a guy who has won nine world title fights. The fact he can drag them into his kind of fight means he's not easy to outbox for 12 rounds, doing it for eight rounds or even eleven rounds doesn't mean a thing.

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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:44 am

Froch was 14 seconds away from being a footnote in SM history when the always unreliable Taylor fell to bits. When Direll decided to fight he made Froch look poor and will probably always rue his decision to adopt a safety first approach. However he couldn't drag Ward into a fight and best him could he? Old man Johnson was teeing off with right hands for Lord knows how long before age caught up and Glen needed his obligatory nap and hot milky drink. Decent but unremarkable fighters have shown the flaws in Froch but have failed to capitalize of them and it isn't all down to Froch's warrior spirit

As I say, he's done well in the past but it's catching up with him and, without Howard Foster's intervention, there's a real possibility in the minds of many, that Froch would already be an ex-champion.

Don't particularly like the version of Froch we've had to endure for a while now but am able to give him credit for pulling it out of the bag when required. Just don't think he deserves all the plaudits for beating Groves when it's clear that the ref was responsible for a howler.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:50 am

So many ifs and buts there Dave, there's one common denominator and that's Froch which suggest he's being doing something right. I ignore Ward because he's a special fighter.

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Why Groves has to win early !!! Empty Re: Why Groves has to win early !!!

Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:52 am

Was Kessler a special fighter as he managed to beat Froch as well. Nice guy and all that but not anything outstanding

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Post by seanmichaels Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:54 am

DAVE667 wrote:Was Kessler a special fighter as he managed to beat Froch as well. Nice guy and all that but not anything outstanding

Kessler and Froch were outstanding. Groves gets put away in the 5th this time. Totally different fight.

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Post by seanmichaels Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:54 am

DAVE667 wrote:Was Kessler a special fighter as he managed to beat Froch as well. Nice guy and all that but not anything outstanding

Kessler and Froch were outstanding. Groves gets put away in the 5th this time. Totally different fight.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:55 am

Kessler lost the rematch convincingly..

Probably not the best example for Groves to latch onto..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:56 am

Kessler was equally tough and more powerful which edged the first fight, in the return Froch upped his work rate and won comfortably. If Groves wins and he has the ability to, it won't be easy and he'll have to work very hard for it, Froch is eminently beatable but as the first fight showed it's not an 'easy' thing to do.

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Post by seanmichaels Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:57 am

This'll be a bit like York City v Liverpool in the FA Cup 1985. Groves had his chance.

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Post by Guest Tue 01 Apr 2014, 11:59 am

In the return it was clear that Kessler was damn near a busted flush and nothing like the fighter who beat him in 2010

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 01 Apr 2014, 12:03 pm

It was so clear to see Dave that he went a full 12 rounds and even shook Froch up in the 12th as you always like to point out, hardly the sign of a busted flush.

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Post by lambertm100 Tue 01 Apr 2014, 12:25 pm

I think Groves wins the rematch. He just needs to;

1. Work on his conditioning in his camp.

2. Mix up those right hands that he finds easy to land on Froch with some of the back foot moves he learnt from Adam Booth.

I can see Groves winning comfortably on points. He's better than Froch at working out his opponents style and adapting so should have the upper hand second time around. Froch seems to fight the same way regardless of who he's facing.

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