Hopkins is a great, and Calzaghe isn't

First topic message reminder :

Hopkins makes history and all of the Calzaghe fans are saying Calzaghe's CV "looks even better".

Please don't take the shine off Hopkins' win.

Calzaghe's lucky SD doesn't mean anything.

Pro boxing is scored on clean punching, effective aggression, ring generalship and defence. There is just no way Hopkins lost to Calzaghe. We all know what happened, Calzaghe refused Hopkins a rematch in Wales and then retired on a 12 round slapfest against the shot Jones.

Congratulations to Hopkins.

A true great of the modern era.

Scottrf wrote:Mosley, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, Cotto and DLH will all almost certainly make the hall.

Jeezus Christ Scott, are you there on 24 hour cyber protection for D4!?

Honestly anytime I see somebody argue against him BOO
!! theres scotty like a lovestruck puppy for the d4ster!!

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Mosley, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, Cotto and DLH will all almost certainly make the hall.

Jeezus Christ Scott, are you there on 24 hour cyber protection for D4!?

Honestly anytime I see somebody argue against him BOO
!! theres scotty like a lovestruck puppy for the d4ster!!

Have you ever thought Scottrf has his own views and happens to think that Mosley, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, Cotto and DLH will be in the HOF, as the general consensus will agree they will.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I'm aware of that but Jones doesn't come close for a whole career for me

I think you will find that most objective observers will rank RJJ ahead of Hop.

Then again its good to go against the grain sometimes, especially if you have good reasoning.

Alas Az, you were doing so well this evening.

Prime for prime, RJJ beats B-Hop every day, morning, afternoon or evening. Yes, he has a tricky time doing it. The fight would be a stinker - but RJJ's speed was too much. And B-hop has never enjoyed being punished to the body and RJJ would have worked his body.

However in the all time list - we don't rank it by "who would beat who" in a head-to-head. In terms of overall career record, he has the fillip of at 46 becoming the oldest ever recognised world champion. He is "the man" at the weight. And he should be lineal champ again. Dawson the "man" post Calzaghe - then Pascal beats him, now B-hop beats him.

More impressive than RJJs career - and thats Roys fault for not retiring after Ruiz. Everything since has tarnished it.

Reeborn

Your comment is dangerously close to breaking house rules. Please refrain from abusing other posters and try to debate.

Comments that add nothing to a discussion will be deleted.

General consensus has Mayweather as a top 50 of all time but you don't agree with that so stop with this nonsensical general consensus rubbish

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Mosley, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, Cotto and DLH will all almost certainly make the hall.

Jeezus Christ Scott, are you there on 24 hour cyber protection for D4!?

Honestly anytime I see somebody argue against him BOO
!! theres scotty like a lovestruck puppy for the d4ster!!

Are you there on 24/7 anti Pacquiao WUM?

You haven't made a constructive comment on this site yet, surely you are better than that? I haven't seen it, but I have faith in every man.

Lads, please try to stay on topic.

Mosley, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, Cotto, DLH will make the HoF and Hatton probably will (though I'm uncertain on his merit).

Anyway - we're upsetting poor hitmansam - who has to continue on his grand campaign to ensure that Calzaghe is remembered as a great. He's his biggest fan you know.

They may make the hall of fame but I still don't think Pacquiaos overall resume compares to that of Hopkins

Interesting comparison with the careers of Hopkins and Pacquiao, and in fairness there is a case for either one of them to be higher than the other.

Pacquiao has the better names on his resume, I don't think anyone is going to deny that. But like the constant debate regardling Ali and Louis, it boils down to which, out of big name wins or general consistency, you prefer. Now when it comes to all-time Heavyweight supremacy I'm firmly in the Ali camp, but I'll stress that I don't think the gulf in Pacquiao and Hopkins' level of opposition is as great as it is between Ali and Louis'.

Despite what some will say, taking the context of the fight in to consideration, I think that Hopkins' dismantling of Trinidad is just about as good as Pacquiao's best win, which I believe to be Barrera I in 2003. After that, I'll concede that Pacquiao's 'second tier' of wins, namely Cotto, Hatton, Marquez and a fading Morales, are greater collectively than Hopkins', which read as Johnson, De la Hoya, Tarver, Pavlik and Pascal.

On the other hand, I think there's a very, very real argument that Hopkins' feat of winning a world title at forty-six (from a capable, if not HOF-worthy belt holder), coupled with a list of other impressive wins when on the wrong side of forty, is a more impressive achievement than Pacquiao's metamorphosis through the weight classes to pick up titles in eight of them. On this day, I might just be tempted to think that it is.

There's virtually nothing in it for me. The mood I'm in right now, given I'm still musing at Hopkins' win this morning, I'll edge slightly towards B-Hop, but ask me again on another day and there's every chance I'll stick Pacquiao back in front by a narrow margin.

Well done to whoever bought the c-word into the topic.

I hope you rot and don't wake up tomorrow.

Hopkins is a greater fighter than Calzaghe, arguably the greatest fighter of this generation (I'd have to think about it a bit more, it's either him or Pacquiao though for sure). Doesn't mean that Calzaghe isn't a great fighter though. Just nowhere near as great as BHop.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:They may make the hall of fame but I still don't think Pacquiaos overall resume compares to that of Hopkins

Outside of lengevity, Pac's resume beats Hop pretty easily imo.

coxy0001 wrote:Well done to whoever bought the c-word into the topic.

I hope you rot and don't wake up tomorrow.

I can't help my name, Coxy!

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I'm aware of that but Jones doesn't come close for a whole career for me

I think you will find that most objective observers will rank RJJ ahead of Hop.

Then again its good to go against the grain sometimes, especially if you have good reasoning.

Alas Az, you were doing so well this evening.

Prime for prime, RJJ beats B-Hop every day, morning, afternoon or evening. Yes, he has a tricky time doing it. The fight would be a stinker - but RJJ's speed was too much. And B-hop has never enjoyed being punished to the body and RJJ would have worked his body.

However in the all time list - we don't rank it by "who would beat who" in a head-to-head. In terms of overall career record, he has the fillip of at 46 becoming the oldest ever recognised world champion. He is "the man" at the weight. And he should be lineal champ again. Dawson the "man" post Calzaghe - then Pascal beats him, now B-hop beats him.

More impressive than RJJs career - and thats Roys fault for not retiring after Ruiz. Everything since has tarnished it.

Lets not get carried away by Hop. He is an ATG without doubt. But RJJ will still rank ahead of him for the simply reason that he won a belt from Mid to HW and was by far the best boxer who was active when he was at his pomp. A special talent who has literally screwed things up for himself by continuing to fight when seriously way past his best.

Winning a HW belt alone guarantees him a higher rank than Hop.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Think you'll find that the general consensus now is that Hopkins ranks ahead of Jones but good try

I dont think so. Didn't the last p4p thread showing the alleged top 100 place RJJ ahead of Hop?

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Think you'll find that the general consensus now is that Hopkins ranks ahead of Jones but good try

I dont think so. Didn't the last p4p thread showing the alleged top 100 place RJJ ahead of Hop?

Which thread was this?

Also there is very little between Hopkins and Pacquiaos record, on a big name basis it looks cut and dry but its not that simple. Completely dominating your division beating all the other belt holders and defending 21 times is a feat that shouldn't be downplayed nor should his post 40 achievements which rank only second to those of Moore, although that could well be surpassed with another win or two.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Think you'll find that the general consensus now is that Hopkins ranks ahead of Jones but good try

I dont think so. Didn't the last p4p thread showing the alleged top 100 place RJJ ahead of Hop?

Which thread was this?

Also there is very little between Hopkins and Pacquiaos record, on a big name basis it looks cut and dry but its not that simple. Completely dominating your division beating all the other belt holders and defending 21 times is a feat that shouldn't be downplayed nor should his post 40 achievements which rank only second to those of Moore, although that could well be surpassed with another win or two.

There was a thread a few week back which ran over 6 pages. I'll try and find it. I recall RJJ being ranked higher that Hop by a fair distance.

Ghosty you are shifting goalposts. An example is Rocky whose HW resume is lacking in terms of longevity and quality of opposition, yet you rank him fairly highly and ahead of Holmes I believe who had a record similar to Hop's. Yet you question Holmes's level of opposition.

The facts are Pac has faced a far better quality of opposition in very dominant fashion.

Last time I checked I had Holmes above Marciano but please carry on making stuff up, you saying it lacks doesn't mean everyone does something you have yet to grasp the concept of

Pacquiao has faced well known name fighters of whom I rate Morales, Barrera, Marquez and Cotto as top wins the rest as I discussed in some detail with Oxy yesterday is up for debate and is often personal preference, there are no facts in a discussion like this rather OPINIONS.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Last time I checked I had Holmes above Marciano but please carry on making stuff up, you saying it lacks doesn't mean everyone does something you have yet to grasp the concept of

Pacquiao has faced well known name fighters of whom I rate Morales, Barrera, Marquez and Cotto as top wins the rest as I discussed in some detail with Oxy yesterday is up for debate and is often personal preference, there are no facts in a discussion like this rather OPINIONS.

Apologies, so you did. But you have criticised Holmes's record and his opponents, yet you dont apply the same principal to Hop.

Oh I respect your opinion. I simply wish the justification for them was consistent.

My justification is perfectly consistent

Holmes' opponents at Heavyweight weren't as good as Hopkins at Middleweight, he beat a lot of opposition who were all busy losing to eachother swapping titles here, there and everywhere

Hopkins beat far more legitimate champions at Middleweight: Holmes, Joppy, Eastman, Johnson, Jackson, Brown and Trinidad may not jump out at you as top class opposition but they were consistent top level performers who didn't come close to beating Hopkins. He was never the benficiary of a dodgy decision because he made sure his fights weren't close in the first place, he absolutely dominated Middleweight for years and put beyond doubt his supremacy at the weight by winning all 5 belts something Holmes never attempted to do.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My justification is perfectly consistent

Holmes' opponents at Heavyweight weren't as good as Hopkins at Middleweight, he beat a lot of opposition who were all busy losing to eachother swapping titles here, there and everywhere

Hopkins beat far more legitimate champions at Middleweight: Holmes, Joppy, Eastman, Johnson, Jackson, Brown and Trinidad may not jump out at you as top class opposition but they were consistent top level performers who didn't come close to beating Hopkins. He was never the benficiary of a dodgy decision because he made sure his fights weren't close in the first place, he absolutely dominated Middleweight for years and put beyond doubt his supremacy at the weight by winning all 5 belts something Holmes never attempted to do.

His best victories were against WW moving up.Simon Brown was also a WW. Holmes' opponents were the best of the era and he didn't duck anyone. His resume is equal to Hop's. Eastman and Joppy were not that good imo. Neither was K Holmes.

You are putting down Holmes's opponents and bigging up Hop's just to score points. But carry on. I@ll humour you a while longer. Terribly predictable.

Point scoring against someone who hasn't got a clue, I don't think so somehow, this pedastal you hold Holmes on what's it made of?

If you can't accept my opinion on Holmes differs from yours then, beating guys moving up is almost as bad as losing to one isn't and to be honest it's quite funny seeing the things you come out with especially when you haven't given it a second thought.

It's always a little more difficult for a fighter who doesn't possess a genuine crowd pleasing style to be embraced as a true ATG, and it sometimes requires a few years' distance before fighters such as Hopkins truly receive their dues. Like it or not, public opinion is a factor in the perceived greatness of a fighter, which would be why men such as Loi, Locche and Whitaker are sometimes relegated to the status of ' afterthoughts ' when we consider the greatest fighters of all time.

Like him or loath him, Hoppo has done enough to earn his berth, and one day he'll receive his dues.

I dont really buy into the welterweight detracting theory for Hopkins.

Hopkins was already a long reigning middleweight champion when he fought Trinidad. Its easy with hindsight to dismiss Trinidad but he was a significant favourite going into the fight and had established his middleweight credentials with a stoppage win over the then highly rated Joppy.

De la Hoya was also a world champion at middleweight when he faced Hopkins. In short, other than beating Taylor, I dont see what else Hopkins could do at Middleweight during his tenure there. He dominated the division and unified all the belts. I think its perfectly reasonable to say his acheivements there match or better Holmes at heavyweight.

Also, if people are going to dismiss De la Hoya and Trinidad as blown up Welterweights, then by extension is Hopkins no more than a blown up Middleweight in respect of his own acheivements at Lightheavy?

Dear god, HMS has appeared with his unique Calzaghe ramblings. Are there any decent threads about Manny or Floyd by D4 to get my teeth into?

Careful what you wish for, jeff.