A Fifth Irish Team

I recently had reason to look at an old map of Ireland as it was around the year 1000 AD which reminded me that in those days Leinster and Dublin were two completely separate geographical areas.

This got me thinking whether it would be beneficial from an Irish rugby perspective if Leinster were split into two separate rugby teams i.e. County Dublin and the remainder of Leinster.  

A cursory bit of research showed me that Dublin provides by far the most players to the current Leinster team in terms of counties but the rest of the counties put together provide the majority.

So while in the current team BOD, Fitzgerald, Madigan, Jennings and Healy are all from Dublin (as far as I can tell) the rest of the team including players like the Kearney brothers, Gordon D’Arcy, SOB, Cullen, Toner and Heaslip are from outside Dublin.

Other players from Dublin include Martin Moore, Jack McGrath, Dominic Ryan, Ruddock and McLaughlin.

In terms of population spread it’s practically 50/50 with the population of County Dublin being 1.27 million approx while the total population of Leinster is 2.5 million approx. Just for reference the total population of Munster is 1.24 million approx.

So theoretically you could have a situation where you have 2 teams with similar population bases providing more opportunities for players coming through and providing more players for Ireland to choose from. So 4 scrumhalves instead of 2, 4 tightheads instead of 2 etc.

Obviously as at present you would still allow players from different provinces to represent others and you would allow a restricted number of NIQ players so you could have players from Dublin who are surplus to requirements playing for Leinster and vice versa with NIQ players filling any gaps.

Would it be worth doing what Fingal do in the GAA and enter a separate Dublin team in the B&I cup or even the Rabo?

Just a bit of nonsense I know but thoughts?

Indeed. The Irish word for '5' is cúig, and the word for 'province' is cúige.


You could have a Dublin team alright if you were to split it population wise.

Alternatively theres no rugby in Cork these days and it has a big enough population. Just a few matches scattered throughout the year.

Creating a Cork team would mean splitting up Munster so you would need a greater flow of players from the other provinces.

The provinces are always talked of being ideal but the Cork/Limerick situation shows they are not ideal because of differing populations.

Going by populations:
Limerick and Galway would combine. They are near each other so they would combine for one team and represent Connacht and the midlands as well.
Dublin would have its own team.
Belfast would be another base and would represent Ulster.
Cork would be another representing most of Munster as well as south leinster.


Having said all of that I don't think there'll be a fifth team any time soon. The IRFU are already trying to get Connacht up to a higher level and are competing with French TV money.

I don't think anything that isn't province / county based would work in Ireland.

As a people we are very heavily invested in our townland / parish / county / province / country.

That's why a 'County Dublin' might work.

A 'County Antrim' might also work as it has a population of 600,000+.

Other than that I don't think any other area would have the population to support a team.

I think you’re as mad as a box of frogs for suggesting it.

But I’m not opposed to the idea of a 5th province, what about London Irish, plenty of Irish players being signed there in the last couple of seasons, I know Conor O’Shea is allegedly persona non grata with the IRFU for having suggested a similar idea at the turn of professionalism but times change and it would be better for Irish players abroad to be more or less at the same club, the IRFU couldn’t expect to implement the player management scheme from across the water but there wouldn’t need to be anything more than an unofficial linkup between the club (looking to exploit it’s Irish roots) and the IRFU, with a surplus of players who will go abroad somewhere.

I think you’re as mad as a box of frogs for suggesting it.

Well I did admit it was nonsense but the more I think about it the more sense it makes to try to eek as many players out of a population of 2.5 million as possible.

So perhaps entering 2 Leinster teams in the Rabo might be a good idea.

Lord help us. 4 is enough.

MunsterMac wrote:

I think you’re as mad as a box of frogs for suggesting it.

Well I did admit it was nonsense but the more I think about it the more sense it makes to try to eek as many players out of a population of 2.5 million as possible.

So perhaps entering 2 Leinster teams in the Rabo might be a good idea.

I just like that expression, don't take it personally.

I think professional rugby is the only professional show in town these days and Leinster have done a lot in recent years to extend their fanbase beyond Dublin, to great success, it would be a bit of a kick in the stones if they were split up.

That being said, i agree with you on the need to find a place for our surplus of players, and I did make a suggestion. What do you think of the London Irish idea?

I'm not sure what I think of the LI idea.

As you said it would have to be unofficial and obviously whatever way you look at it LI are an English club under the RFU and the PRL.

It might work for 1 or 2 players now and again but I'm not sure you could depend on it.

On the other hand we have Connacht who are always in need of good quality players.

However while I don't think we could support a fifth team in the HC I do think a 5th one in the Rabo would be very useful.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Lord help us. 4 is enough.

if we had 5 teams it would mean weaker irish teams competing in Europe, surely that would make you happy

A 5th team in England is a no go. London Irish are an English club and get paid by the IRFU to produce players for England. As well as that I don't see the logic of the IRFU paying to send players abroad to a different league.

Only solution I would see is if London Irish joined the pro 12 or something like that. Thats not going to happen.


So thats the bad news. The good news is the All Ireland League/UBL. The quality is starting to rise in the last few years and its a good breeding ground for players. I think more and more players will be signed to play professional rugby from the UBL.

Martin kelly (tighthead) is supposed to have signed with Munster next season. Darren O'Shea (lock) going to Gloucester, Willie Ryan (No 8) to Rotherham etc.

profitius wrote:A 5th team in England is a no go. London Irish are an English club and get paid by the IRFU to produce players for England. As well as that I don't see the logic of the IRFU paying to send players abroad to a different league.

Only solution I would see is if London Irish joined the pro 12 or something like that. Thats not going to happen.


So thats the bad news. The good news is the All Ireland League/UBL. The quality is starting to rise in the last few years and its a good breeding ground for players. I think more and more players will be signed to play professional rugby from the UBL.

Martin kelly (tighthead) is supposed to have signed with Munster next season. Darren O'Shea (lock) going to Gloucester, Willie Ryan (No 8) to Rotherham etc.

James Hart to Grenoble, Simon Shawe to Leinster and Craig Ronaldson to Connacht are three others signed directly from the AIL.

Leo Auv'a, Christy Condon are a couple of others.

Jerry Cronin to Ulster is another

geoff998rugby wrote:Jerry Cronin to Ulster is another

anything to Sean???

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Jerry Cronin to Ulster is another

anything to Sean???

Jerry Cronin is from Cork and Sean is from Limerick, so doubtful that they are closely related.

Sin é wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Jerry Cronin to Ulster is another

anything to Sean???

Jerry Cronin is from Cork and Sean is from Limerick, so doubtful that they are closely related.

considering i have never heard of Jerry Cronin i was hardly going to know he was from Cork.

What about James Cronin?

A 5th team will obviously never happen. But another team we could form is a 7s team to compete in the world series. We realky are missing out on all the fun there and its a great way to expose young players.

I think a 5th team could work.

Basically leave Leinster exactly as it is but create a new team based on the remaining Dublin players (after Leinster have had 1st pick), supplement them with players not needed by the other provinces and let them play in the Rabo as Dublin.

It would be a good way of trying to maximize the comparatively huge playing population in Dublin.

Id prefer to go for a South East team based in Kilkenny or Waterford. No point in having two teams based in Dublin.

I don't see how anyone could think a 5th province could work giving how the French are going. We don't have a surplus of players, if we did Connacht would be a lot more competitive. There is also nothing wrong with letting the likes if Hart, Morris etc. go abroad to play rugby.

Like I said the only potential new team is a 7s team to compete on the circuit.

Two points from an English fan:
1) Didn't I read somewhere that LI's new backers were Irish and looking to make it a home-from-home for Irish players in London (like it was before professionalism) - http://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/rugby-news/new-owners-for-london-irish-6394180?

2) You're welcome to a 5th province in the Rabo (not that it seems likely) - as long as you don't expect an additional qualifying slot. We've been down that road before!

I think we need to have few NIQs at connacht first.

If we did have a second team i would love it to be our u20/22 team. Give the players chance to shine. Base it in UCD or somewhere like that to get good attendances.
Would give younger players an easier way to avoid being stuck behind a player for 3 years stalling his progress.

We don't have a surplus of players, if we did Connacht would be a lot more competitive

We do have a small surplus of players at the moment but most of them choose to go abroad rather than go to Connacht. Some do go to Connacht of course like Keatley, Sean Cronin etc.

However I' not talking about the current situation or the current surplus.

I'm talking about a situation where currently Munster have a 1st team squad of approx 40 players, approx 20 additional 'A' players and around 20 academy players for a population base of 1.24 million.

Leinster with a population base of 2.5 million have roughly the same numbers in their setup even though they have a far bigger schools system, half the clubs in div 1a of the AIL and another 16 teams dotted throughout the other divisions.

I think the opportunity and raw material exists to produce at least another squad of 40 players from Dublin / Leinster which would contribute to increasing the numbers of good quality players to Ireland and the 4 main provinces.

And incidentally I don't think Connacht should be treated as a 'nursery' province indefinitely.

I think the IRFU should be doing everything in it's powers to ensure that Connacht becomes a competitive province in it's own right and not be constantly treated differently to the other 3 provinces.

It term of complete and utter non starters this is right up there.

You are wasting an awful lot of hot air on something that will never happen

You are wasting an awful lot of hot air on something that will never happen

Forgive me. I was under the impression this was a discussion forum.

And I'm well aware it'll never happen but neither will half the stuff discussed on 606.

profitius wrote:Indeed. The Irish word for '5' is cúig, and the word for 'province' is cúige.

The Scots gaelic would be 'coig'

Munstermac discuss away

I wasn't aware I said it should stop

Well telling someone that they're wasting their time discussing something is hardly a ringing endorsement for continued discussion now is it? 

Wouldn't Meath be the fifth province anyway? They could play in Athlone, c'mon you Middlemen!
I'd quite like to see the Rabo expanded with the London "exile" teams - I wonder what the attendances would be like compared to the Jeff/Championship?
And yes, I'm fully aware it's unlikely to happen!