Amanda Knox

How is this woman living freely in the US despite being a convicted murderer?!

#justiceformeredith

To be fair olly I don't think we will ever find out what really happened in that terrible night. Trust me the italian justice system is so incompetent amanda could actually be as innocent as she claims.

LivinginItaly wrote:To be fair olly I don't think we will ever find out what really happened in that terrible night. Trust me the italian justice system is so incompetent amanda could actually be as innocent as she claims.

Oh I think she's guilty as charged, and that other bloke the Rafaelle guy (who when that appeal got overturned fled and was foubd near the Austrian border, not trying to flee the country tho   )but yes the Italian system hasn't covered itself in glory in this case!

Was'nt she quick to accuse the bar owner aswell.
 
Its sad for the Kercher family in all this.
 
I hate the way it seems to be poor Amanda.
As LIT says, she may well be innocent in all this.
 
What about Meridith's family.

Olly wrote:

LivinginItaly wrote:To be fair olly I don't think we will ever find out what really happened in that terrible night. Trust me the italian justice system is so incompetent amanda could actually be as innocent as she claims.

Oh I think she's guilty as charged, and that other bloke the Rafaelle guy (who when that appeal got overturned fled and was foubd near the Austrian border, not trying to flee the country tho   )but yes the Italian system hasn't covered itself in glory in this case!

What makes you think Knox is guilty?

She is living free because her appeal was successful and then unsuccessful with the same evidence..

The USA has a duty of care to it's citizens and a corrupt third world Country which is run by the Mafia or just as bad Berlusconi type figures like Italy.. is not to be taken seriously.......

Knox is okay where she is.......

We'll decide her fate !!........Give us the evidence and we'll look at it and I'm sure that's what the State department will do..

Put it this way if I was accused of doing something here in Italy I would try and flee back to England. Italy is a beautiful country but it is so corrupt, disorganised and complicated. Plus one has to factor in the role of the media in criminal cases. Basically the media interview witnesses, suspects, and anybody connected with the case before the judicial process has been completed and present their opinions as fact (even if these opinions change every week) Hence the concept of a fair trial is impossible.

The Italian justice system is a joke; you could toss a coin to decide on someone's guilt and you'll get a more reliable answer.

We all want to see justice for Meredith......But..

1. The same evidence that turned over her conviction.......Convicted her after she went back to the States....The State department is bound to think in 2016 when it gets round to looking at the case.. WTF !!!

2. The number one duty of Government is to take care of it's Citizens........Knox will take precedent over Kercher's family......

3. Big mistake letting her leave Italy....

4. Don't expect her to be leaving for Italy anytime soon.......a) America doesn't like other Countries dispensing "justice" on her Citizens b) The State department has more concerning business than this.... c) It'll be a political judgement rather than a legal one that decides Knox fate...It'll be public opinion back home that decides..

If I was Knox I'd be trying out my Mother Theresa act on every TV show I could get access to.......

I followed this case fairly closely since the story forst broke. I'm not exactly sure why now.

However, it is my firm belief that Amanda Knox is about as guilty of murdering Meredith Kercher as I am. Beyond her 'confession', obtained under severe duress, and the witness testimony of a heroin addict who, as it is now claimed, was routinely paid by Perugian authorities to provide testimony in previous cases, there is no evidence whatsoever.

We know who killed Meredith Kercher. It was Rudy Guede. Guede, when speaking to friends of his on Skype, after he fled Italy following the murder, claimed he had never even heard of Amanda Knox and Rafaelle Sollecito.

The litany of inconsistencies, mistakes, and sheer idiocy of the Italian authorities is too long to list here.

Needless to say, if the case were to have been brought in the U.K. the CPS, not an organisation known for only prosecuting water-tight cases, would almost certainly have refused to even prosecute.

I agree.........Two lives ruined and a complete balls up......

Kercher is dead and she had a great future with the World at her feet.........Knox will always be looking over her shoulder..

Tragic..........

westisbest wrote:Was'nt she quick to accuse the bar owner aswell.
 
Its sad for the Kercher family in all this.
 
I hate the way it seems to be poor Amanda.
As LIT says, she may well be innocent in all this.
 
What about Meridith's family.

She wasn't 'quick' to do anything. She was held, without Counsel and interrogated over night, without sleep, water, food, or bathroom breaks for over 8 hours. Incidentally, the Perugian Police originally interviewed her as a witness. It is for this reason that she went voluntarily to the station without Counsel.

The fact that, she 'confessed' to being present when Lumumba (the bar owner) supposedly killed Meredith, serves only to highlight how obviously fabricated her 'confession' was since, after being accused, Lumumba swiftly provided a water-tight alibi.

It is an awful loss for Meredith's family, but perpetuating a monstrous injustice will not bring Meredith back, nor will it honour her memory.

It is now about Amanda Knox. What happened in Perugia was a terrible tragedy. The only thing which could make it more so would be to see two young women, rather than just one, robbed of their futures.

"Poor Amanda" ???

The media narrative over here has been dead against her from the start......Come on !!!

Spoilt American brat who has had strings pulled to get her off is the narrative !!

Whereas scrutiny of the case shows a conviction which is not safe......

If she's guilty then she should pay.......However her conviction has been overturned and upheld with the same evidence..

You can't blame the State department for being SCEPTICAL of the Italian justice system..

As an aside, no one, including me, has so far mentioned the plight of Rafaelle Sollecito.

The Italian authorities want Knox. That much is clear. In my opinion, they've sacrificed an innocent Italian national in order to get to her. If the evidence against Knox is flimsy at best, then the evidence against Sollecito is completely non-existent.

All you need to do is read the handling of the 'bra clasp' in order to determine the shambolic nature of the case. It's almost slapstick.

Duty281 wrote:The Italian justice system is a joke; you could toss a coin to decide on someone's guilt and you'll get a more reliable answer.

At least with a toss of a coin you'd have a 50 / 50 chance of getting the right decision.

The Italian system hasn't covered itself in glory with this case and the ultimate ricket was in letting Knox out of the country.  Once back in the US she would know she'd only have to play the victim card to get the sympathy of every television network, radio station and newspaper in the country actively ensuring that American public opinion, goes into full blown "USA against the world" mode.  

I don't know if Amanda Knox is guilty of anything at all, and it has to be said that it is difficult to see how the Italian system could be relied upon to give her a better organised or properly conducted re-trial.  The whole thing is a mess.  I would hate to be a juror in this case.

As for the international arrest warrant, and the extradition request, well, the US Justice System has an appallingly poor record in acceding to other countries extradition requests (think of all those IRA terrorist suspects who took safe refuge in the USA through the 70's and 80's) and Knox herself sure as heck aint gonna give herself up.  

The real losers in this are the Kercher family.   They will undoubtedly continue to seek justice for their daughter but if they think they will get any sympathy from the American courts, I'll give you three words.  Abdulbaset al Magrahi.  Britain didn't obey Washington's orders when Teresa May allowed his release.  And Uncle Sam always gets even.

It may be a very long time before the Kercher family obtain justice.  If ever.

Of course the Americans are going to have sympathy for the attractive white American girl.

Can't really see the US having much of a leg to stand on if the Italians demand extradition, given all their requests.

You are joking....

She has been convicted of murder. 

How can you not extradite her

Eventually. After a US struggle and Knox drags it through court for a decade or so.

The problem America will face is if they don't grant the italian request for Knox to be handed over to the Italians they face the prospect of other countries doing the same to them. Why would Italians give up their own citizen to face American justice if the Americans won't do the same?

Champagne_Socialist wrote:The problem America will face is if they don't grant the italian request for Knox to be handed over to the Italians they face the prospect of other countries doing the same to them. Why would Italians give up their own citizen to face American justice if the Americans won't do the same?

Normally I would agree wholeheartedly with you, CS but unfortunately, the US has a massive amount of clout in just about every area of international relations, political, economical, social and military.   The Italian government will know that the US is quite capable (and probably quite willing) to stick two fingers up at Italy and they would be powerless to retaliate in kind.  If Rome tried to withhold extradition of, say, a member of Al Qaeda taking refuge in Italy, then in some way or another, the screw would be turned and Italy would eventually capitulate.  Washington knows it. Rome knows it.  Washington knows Rome knows it.

And even if Rome did hold out, then the US would simply send a team of SEALS in.  Without batting an eyelid, the Pentagon would have no qualms about violating Italian sovereignty, breaking international law, and tearing up every inconvenient treaty they might be subject to, and simply kill their target.... and any Italian soldier or copper that stood in their way.    

OK.... I realise that writing this could leave me open to accusations of anti-Americanism (noshitsherlock..!!) but actually, I am very fond of the American people.  I have served alongside the US armed forces and have always enjoyed my time in the country.  They are welcoming, warm and friendly people who mostly like the British and feel a genuine relationship with us.    I'm not critical of the American people who I believe have a deep and honest belief in the pursuit of liberty and justice.

It is the American government we must be wary of.  The US machinery of state is interested only in hegemony on the world stage and woe betide any country that doesn't give them what they want.

I would love to be wrong about this... truly I would.  I would hope that, a) if the evidence against Amanda Knox falls within the boundaries of whatever treaty exists between the US and Italy, then they would hand her over and b) that once in Italy she would be given a fair and - most importantly - competent re-trial leading to a just outcome that c) gives the Kercher family some peace in knowing that, at the very least, a fair and just process was followed.

Sadly, I have to say, I'm not at all confident that any of things are likely to happen.

Gary Mckinnon anybody ??

Olly wrote:She has been convicted of murder. 

How can you not extradite her

Barry George was convicted of murder and like Barry George she had her guilt overturned on appeal !!..........With the same evidence she was convicted again...

Now If Knox was British and Kercher American would you really feel as passionate......I hope you would but I doubt it...

The State department when it gets round to it has a few things to consider..........

1. The treatment of an American citizen in Italy...Was it fair ?

2. Why is she not guilty and then guilty on the same evidence ??

3. Whether to take to the Italian Justice system seriously...

4. The Court of public opinion..........Do the American public find her a sympathetic character and If so she becomes Political....

5. Whether to turnover the age old hatred of other Countries trying to shout the odds and tell them what to do.........Especially corrupt nations run by the Mafia who appoint people like Berlusconi to run them !!

The more Italy go on about the case........The longer the department will sit on it.........

The first rule of any Country is to protect it's Citizens..........Italy gave her back and the USA will decide her future........and rightly so.....

My guess is they'll ask for the evidence..........Pretend to review it it and stick two fingers up......

As Gary Mckinnon rightly shows.......It's for you to decide what is right for your fellow citizens not another country...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Olly wrote:She has been convicted of murder. 

How can you not extradite her

Barry George was convicted of murder and like Barry George she had her guilt overturned on appeal !!..........With the same evidence she was convicted again...

Now If Knox was British and Kercher American would you really feel as passionate......I hope you would but I doubt it...

The State department when it gets round to it has a few things to consider..........

1. The treatment of an American citizen in Italy...Was it fair ?

2. Why is she not guilty and then guilty  on the same evidence ??

3. Whether to take to the Italian Justice system seriously...

4. The Court of public opinion..........Do  the American public find her a sympathetic character and If so she becomes Political....

5. Whether to turnover the age old hatred of other Countries trying to shout the odds and tell them what to do.........Especially corrupt nations run by the Mafia who appoint people like Berlusconi to run them !!

The more Italy go on about the case........The longer the department will sit on it.........

The first rule of any Country is to protect it's Citizens..........Italy gave her back and the USA will decide her future........and rightly so.....

My guess is they'll ask for the evidence..........Pretend to review it it and stick two fingers up......

As Gary Mckinnon rightly shows.......It's for you to decide what is right for your fellow citizens not another country...

So then Afganistan were doing the right thing by not handing over Osama Bin laden to the Americans in 2001? After all it is up to Afganistan to decide what is right for their own citizens (or people residing oin their country), not America which is some foreign country.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Olly wrote:She has been convicted of murder. 

How can you not extradite her

Barry George was convicted of murder and like Barry George she had her guilt overturned on appeal !!..........With the same evidence she was convicted again...

You do the hokey-cokey and you turn around....That's what it's all about!

No idea how this thread is still going. Either everyone's being very restrained, or the mods just haven't noticed it yet.

Have to say I'm with Trussman on this one. The prosecution has been a farce from start to finish. Why would America extradite one of their citizens to face that sort of justice? What faith can they have that she'll receive a fair trial? Particularly given that the case has only become more politicized since the original trial.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Olly wrote:She has been convicted of murder. 

How can you not extradite her

Barry George was convicted of murder and like Barry George she had her guilt overturned on appeal !!..........With the same evidence she was convicted again...

Now If Knox was British and Kercher American would you really feel as passionate......I hope you would but I doubt it...

The State department when it gets round to it has a few things to consider..........

1. The treatment of an American citizen in Italy...Was it fair ?

2. Why is she not guilty and then guilty  on the same evidence ??

3. Whether to take to the Italian Justice system seriously...

4. The Court of public opinion..........Do  the American public find her a sympathetic character and If so she becomes Political....

5. Whether to turnover the age old hatred of other Countries trying to shout the odds and tell them what to do.........Especially corrupt nations run by the Mafia who appoint people like Berlusconi to run them !!

The more Italy go on about the case........The longer the department will sit on it.........

The first rule of any Country is to protect it's Citizens..........Italy gave her back and the USA will decide her future........and rightly so.....

My guess is they'll ask for the evidence..........Pretend to review it it and stick two fingers up......

As Gary Mckinnon rightly shows.......It's for you to decide what is right for your fellow citizens not another country...

So then Afganistan were doing the right thing by not handing over Osama Bin laden to the Americans in 2001? After all it is up to Afganistan to decide what is right for their own citizens (or people residing oin their country), not America which is some foreign country.

It was for Afghanistan to decide and decide they did.........It was for us to decide whether a guy who ADMITTED being behind killing 3,000 innocents was something we could ignore........and we decided we couldn't.....and rightly went in.....(Didn't agree with Iraq!!)

Knox was found not guilty on appeal and guilty with the same evidence and she has never admitted to anything !!...and It's for us to decide whether it's b***sh*t or not.....

Hardly the same thing.............But Italy can invade If they like...

Very rare, but I agree with Champagne, word for word.

I like you Kingy...Like the 4th lion the board is better with you on it....But you are no fan of America as I've noticed through your writings....I'm sure you would agree..

So I have no doubt you agree word for word with CS........Who is another under appreciated contributer..

I agree with you, Truss, America most certainly shouldn't be extraditing in this case.

Duty281 wrote:I agree with you, Truss, America most certainly shouldn't be extraditing in this case.

I agree........If Knox was bang to rights I'd have no qualms.........It's not a... We are America thing........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Gary Mckinnon anybody ??

Ahhh, Gary McKinnon.  Thereby hangs a tale.  

A man who most certainly would NOT have received a fair trial had he been extradited.  His guilt was already assured and his sentence probably already determined..... on the orders of the Pentagon..... long before he would have set foot on a plane out of this country.   Any trial given to Gary McKinnon would have been a sham.... a show trial the like of which was frequently held in the bad old Soviet Union.  The sort of show trial the US used to condemn with a holier than thou attitude whilst knowing full well just how badly flawed their own legal processes are.

It is easy to be critical of Italy's shambolic justice system.   We know it's terribly flawed and wide open to mafia corruption.  But it's not the only one, is it..?   The US justice system has long been known to be corrupted by organised crime.   The mafia within the US has long been able to recruit dishonest judges and to manipulate everything up to and including Congressional Hearings via the politicians they have in their pocket.

Perhaps the US should put its own house in order before it criticises Italy.

With regard to the argument that the US has a duty to protect its own citizens, well, that is true, but only up to a point.   It should protect its citizens from being sent to countries where they would be tortured or maltreated.  Ditto those countries that are at war or other armed conflict with the United States, which actually narrows the list down considerably but certainly doesn't include Italy on any of those
counts. *


The requirement to protect its own citizens, where none of the above applies, must be tempered with the obligation to honour treaties to which the President has put his signature, when they can be sure that a fair trial will be given and if the Italians can make a reasonable argument that they could do this then the "need to protect" obstacle is removed.  

And if anybody as for getting all high and mighty about the Italians electing Silvio Berlusconi to High Office, I'll give you one name in retort:   Richard Nixon.

With regard to the issue of Afghanistan and Iraq (which has been brought up), well, the hypocrisy of the US over terrorism is staggering.   This is a country that knowingly harboured Irish terrorists.... and not only that, turned a blind eye to the funding and arming of the IRA by American citizens, businesses and weapons suppliers for more than thirty years.   As far as they were concerned, terrorism wasn't an issue in the Continental United States.

But all that changed on 11 September 2001.

All of a sudden, terrorism was an issue.  All of a sudden there was a "War on Terror" to be waged and America's allies (including those with a Special Relationship) were required to get on board rinky tink.  

The likelihood of Amanda Knox being extradited is quite remote but let's not kid ourselves that it has anything to do with her guilt or innocence or Italy's ability or inability to provide a fair trial.   This is the US letting Europe know who's boss.   It's about the politicians pandering to the public via the media that they need on their side for their own political interests, and it's about sending out a message:   When you disobey us, we don't forget it.

Over here in Europe, or as the Americans call it:  "The Third World" it's important to Know Your Ally.

 


*   Note:   Britain will not normally extradite any British citizen to a country where the death penalty is in force...... except the USA.   I sometimes ask why that is.

All the IR chat aside, the case was handled so badly that any nation would be barmy to extradite.

The reason Amanda 'played the victim' is probably because she quite clearly is a victim. A victim of a monstrous injustice.

Rudy Guede is Kercher's killer. The Italian prosecution's insistence that the murder must have been carried out by multiple parties has long since been refuted.

Like I said, wrongly convicting Amanda Knox won't bring Meredith back and it won't honour her memory.

Everyone seems very keen to dismiss Knox's suffering as somehow entirely unimportant, or perhaps, not even genuine.

Take some time to actually read up on the case, the appalling procedures followed, the virtually non-existent evidence, and ask yourself; how you would feel if it was your daughter, sister, or friend in Amanda Knox's position.

She is a white, pretty American girl, and however much you resent her for that, or however much you feel that those factors garner her more sympathy than others in a similar position might receive, doesn't mean that she is not also a victim.

Gentleman01 wrote:All the IR chat aside, the case was handled so badly that any nation would be barmy to extradite.

The reason Amanda 'played the victim' is probably because she quite clearly is a victim. A victim of a monstrous injustice.

Rudy Guede is Kercher's killer. The Italian prosecution's insistence that the murder must have been carried out by multiple parties has long since been refuted.

Like I said, wrongly convicting Amanda Knox won't bring Meredith back and it won't honour her memory.

Everyone seems very keen to dismiss Knox's suffering as somehow entirely unimportant, or perhaps, not even genuine.

Take some time to actually read up on the case, the appalling procedures followed, the virtually non-existent evidence, and ask yourself; how you would feel if it was your daughter, sister, or friend in Amanda Knox's position.

She is a white, pretty American girl, and however much you resent her for that, or however much you feel that those factors garner her more sympathy than others in a similar position might receive, doesn't mean that she is not also a victim.

Well, you make your opinion quite clear and there's no law against that.  But I think it should be pointed out that what you have stated is an opinion, not a proven fact.

Many things have been written about this case and many of the articles have been quite selective about the "facts" they like to present.  There are many parties with their own agenda and it is easy to read the ones that agree with a specific point of view and accept them as indisputable evidence... which, whilst they may contain some points that are agreed by all, do not present a balanced case on either side.

The only genuine victim in this whole sorry incident is Meredith Kercher.  She's the one who is dead, let's not forget.  All others are peripheral to that.   If Amanda Knox feels victimised, then that is regrettable, but she was involved in the death of an innocent girl, let's not forget that.   To what degree she was involved has not been properly tried and until it is (if ever, which I doubt it ever will be), then she will have to live with the "victimisation" that she feels.

She has it in her power to sort this whole thing out once and for all.   She can be instrumental in establishing, beyond reasonable doubt, her innocence.  It is in her own hands.

All she has to do is get on a plane.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32096621

Not guilty, now. This is the 'final ruling.'

One wonders if there is still a final, final ruling to be made? You never know with Italian justice.

Amanda Knox...a very lucky woman.

shivfan wrote:Amanda Knox...a very lucky woman.

I'd say being imprisoned for a murder they now deem her to to have committed is pretty unlucky actually

Scum.

Italian justice system is a joke.

Probably the Court buckling to political pressure as the government knew it didn't have the balls to front up to the US over an extradition procedure.

Evil evil wench.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Scum.

Italian justice system is a joke.

Probably the Court buckling to political pressure as the government knew it didn't have the balls to front up to the US over an extradition procedure.

Evil evil wench.

And that's the problem. The Italian system is so corrupt that we don't know if Knox is the victim of a false prosecution or if she actually was involved and has got away with it because of political pressure.

She'd get it.

seanmichaels wrote:She'd get it.

Would have thought you'd already done her, Sean

shivfan wrote:Amanda Knox...a very lucky woman.

Lucky ??????.....Case sucked and it was brought by incompetent officials in the most corrupt Country in Europe....

If she was British you'd be toasting her freedom............

Guilty, Innocent, Guilty, Innocent...................and the Italians wanted her back.....

Still it'll save the State department brushing the cobwebs off the extradition order and pretending to look at it... before they told these wallies to get lost..

No winners in this case..................All losers..........

Now let's leave them all alone...

Biggest losers sadly being the Kertcher family.

westisbest wrote:Biggest losers sadly being the Kertcher family.

Very true................After Meredith herself..

I see Raffaelle Sollecito has released a second book since being released......Whilst I'm happy he was acquitted. Bit unfair for Knox to be out and not him !!..

He shouldn't take the p**s too much.......Every right to cash in with one book If he was innocent. No one can give him his time back..

But have some regard for the Kercher family...

Another Italian mess.....I'm surprised they can make pizza over there..

I don't what's worse - that guy 'writing' books for cash or the people who buy them.