Football World Cup

First topic message reminder :

Ok i know this is a Rugby forum...but i was curious if any of you guys will be watching it.

Im not a huge fan of the game at all...despite most of my mates being Newcastle United fan ( i do keep a check on them)

But i guess i may switch it on if theres nothing else on. My problem is after ten minutes it utterly bores me...and i find myself switching anyway...

They just ran with the granny-killing thing in a big way

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/rte-granny-killing-opinion-tv-review-1527548-Jun2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

Adrian Chiles is the worst pundit. I hate to say this but hes worse than John Inverdale...and thats saying something!!

fa0019 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:BTW, speaking of gannies.  I have to say yet again, for one more tournament, that the English panelists (BBC or ITV) simply can't hold a candle to the Irish crowd (panelists) for entertainment value.

Whilst the English TV panelists have all been nice and polite and soft spoken and using the same cliched language you hear year in and year out about football, in Ireland we've have back-biting, back stabbing, open hostility between panelists, guys cursing, guys snorting fire from their emotional eyes whilst remembering the old days when football players had balls...and one guy - old John Giles himself - telling an anecdote about a coach he once knew who'd rate a player based on whether or not "He'd kill his granny".

Oh the fun of RTE panelists plus the World Cup.

Doesn't wee ray houghton pundit for RTE? How can you understand that "Irish" accent???

I never understand a word that man says. And that's only more of the entertainment. He has the accent, but he also speaks quietly, usually when there is a lot of noise in the game! So he's chatting away and our usual response is a "Thanks for that, Ray"

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:BTW, speaking of gannies.  I have to say yet again, for one more tournament, that the English panelists (BBC or ITV) simply can't hold a candle to the Irish crowd (panelists) for entertainment value.

Whilst the English TV panelists have all been nice and polite and soft spoken and using the same cliched language you hear year in and year out about football, in Ireland we've have back-biting, back stabbing, open hostility between panelists, guys cursing, guys snorting fire from their emotional eyes whilst remembering the old days when football players had balls...and one guy - old John Giles himself - telling an anecdote about a coach he once knew who'd rate a player based on whether or not "He'd kill his granny".

Oh the fun of RTE panelists plus the World Cup.

Doesn't wee ray houghton pundit for RTE? How can you understand that "Irish" accent???

I never understand a word that man says.  And that's only more of the entertainment.  He has the accent, but he also speaks quietly, usually when there is a lot of noise in the game!  So he's chatting away and our usual response is a "Thanks for that, Ray"

Yeah surprisingly quiet if I recall for a Glaswegian... I mean Donegal lad. Truth be told all the big clubs ignored him up north so fair is fair and Ireland only picked him up by chance when he was introduce to big jack by John Alridge. But still a great player and a missed opportunity.

fa0019 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:BTW, speaking of gannies.  I have to say yet again, for one more tournament, that the English panelists (BBC or ITV) simply can't hold a candle to the Irish crowd (panelists) for entertainment value.

Whilst the English TV panelists have all been nice and polite and soft spoken and using the same cliched language you hear year in and year out about football, in Ireland we've have back-biting, back stabbing, open hostility between panelists, guys cursing, guys snorting fire from their emotional eyes whilst remembering the old days when football players had balls...and one guy - old John Giles himself - telling an anecdote about a coach he once knew who'd rate a player based on whether or not "He'd kill his granny".

Oh the fun of RTE panelists plus the World Cup.

Doesn't wee ray houghton pundit for RTE? How can you understand that "Irish" accent???

It's very similar to the Belfast accent so we can manage.Scottish is almost Irish,we have all the same stereotypes,big drinkers,like to fight,cold,wet miserable weather but lovely scenery in the country.It diverges where the Scots are considered tight,the Irish are considered great craic,we definitely got the better end of that one.

Are they going to take Wayne Rooney out of the adverts now?

Putting him with players like Neymar, Messi etc is quite frankly disgraceful. He's not fit to lace the other players' boots.

England are facing the same problems now that happened to Scotland in the 90's. Fill the league with foreign players at the expense of English ones meaning the national team get's worse and worse.

Proper shame that.

What did Rooney do wrong this time Tattie?

Last time he set up the only English goal, this time he scored the only English goal? Just who is keeping this England side down? Rooney?

Secret, don't get me wrong, he's an alright player but he is NOT world class. And his goal last night was the only one he's scored in WC finals.

The young lads last night played well I thought and only a lack of big match experience caused their down fall. There's a lot of talen there and it's not in the form of Rooney, Gerrard or Hart.

England need to start again, probably in the way that Belgium did.

I think Rooney is a hell of a player. Perhaps not on Messi's level but Neymar, yes at the beginning of Rooney's career certainly. Remember that Rooney is playing in a side with the likes of Jordan Henderson, Leyton Baines and Glen Johnson feeding him possession.

Talent wise he is peerless on UKs shores but hasn't been able to reach it for whatever reason when he played in good England teams... now he's fit and on form, he's in a very poor England team. Only so much you can do. Bale, Ibhrahamovic don't stop being great players because they play in average national sides... its the same for Rooney.

You don't score 40 goals for England by age 28 without being top quality.

Rooney in the team currently spoils the balance for me. I read a lot that vs Italy (when we actually played well and probably deserved more) that he played poorly as he was out on the left. Well he was moved to the centre and the rest of the team played terribly and he was awful again. Personally I'd drop him to the bench for the third.

but rooney just isnt a world class striker. he needs to play alongside one in order to be effective. and england havent had one while rooney has been playing, so he hasnt been able to live up to his billing.

van nistleroy, ronaldo, berbatov, van persie.

if england had one of those types out out and out striker's that would be rooney's perfect complement. unfortunately we dont, although sturridge might get there, but too late for rooney and world cup glory

So if Rooney plays badly (out on the left) he's responsible.  If the rest of the team play badly (him in the centre) he's responsible?

I watched the game and saw a lot of players responsible for a lot of what they were responsible for, and I didn't feel Rooney was responsible for them doing it.

It's a witch-hunt.  At least his critics should admit that much.  He can now do no right in the minds of those who simply want him gone.  And when he's gone the torch of "Player Most To Blame" will undoubtedly be passed on to another guy, who'll have to carry it whether he plays well or badly.

You should pick your team around your best players and build the team around them to compliment them. Thats what Alf Ramsey did, what a lot of coaches still do. I recall hearing from Jack Charlton that when he queried his initial inclusion Alf said to him, "Jack, i don't necessarily choose the best players".

The wrong approach is to simply try and accomodate players who individually offer a lot but together don't. Rooney is the star man in that team. Build the side around him.

Look what happened with Gerrard, Lampard & Scholes. Scholes thrown to the left and all of a sudden he retires at 29. A waste.

SecretFly, what would you expect from a Leeds United legend?

Plus.............we know what many English fans think of Rooney. But what did the Uruguayans think of him? Did they ignore the idiot rambling around the field with no influence? Nope, they hounded him and suggested where their respect lay for England's considered most dangerous players.

aitchw wrote:SecretFly, what would you expect from a Leeds United legend?

Nothing. You just sit back and enjoy..

SecretFly wrote:So if Rooney plays badly (out on the left) he's responsible.  If the rest of the team play badly (him in the centre) he's responsible?

I watched the game and saw a lot of players responsible for a lot of what they were responsible for, and I didn't feel Rooney was responsible for them doing it.

It's a witch-hunt.  At least his critics should admit that much.  He can now do no right in the minds of those who simply want him gone.  And when he's gone the torch of "Player Most To Blame" will undoubtedly be passed on to another guy, who'll have to carry it whether he plays well or badly.

 
I feel his first touch has been consistently poor and his move to a more central role led to poorer performances from Sterling in particular who was fantastic and left Sturridge a bit isolated up front. Issues from the defence remain there for all to see with the attack becoming a bit disjointed. Rooney may be the best striker we have but by playing him I feel we're not getting the best out of anyone. We've suffered for years in playing our best players without thinking of the best team. In summary I'd go with getting Sterling on the ball as much as possible and replace Rooney with Lallana who plays that role more at Southampton.

fa0019 wrote:You should pick your team around your best players and build the team around them to compliment them. Thats what Alf Ramsey did, what a lot of coaches still do. I recall hearing from Jack Charlton that when he queried his initial inclusion Alf said to him, "Jack, i don't necessarily choose the best players".

The wrong approach is to simply try and accomodate players who individually offer a lot but together don't. Rooney is the star man in that team. Build the side around him.

Look what happened with Gerrard, Lampard & Scholes. Scholes thrown to the left and all of a sudden he retires at 29. A waste.

but rooney is just not the star that you think. maybe he once was, fleetingly, but not any more. he is just not the same calibre as balotelli, suarez, van persie, benzema, ronaldo as strikers, so there is no way england should build a team around him as a second rate striker. his conversion of shots to goals is appalling compared to those others. he is not a striker in the same way they are.

As with any team sport, you should pick players for ther strengths and then allow them to play to them. National sides are often packed with talent that has it's flair restricted by imposed roles and tactics alien to the natural instincts of the players. The best managers figure out ways to enhance individual skills and use them to the benefit of the team. Germany is amongst the best at this in recent years.

Rooney's record is 40 in 94 (0.43 per game).

The players you mentioned have goal records of thus

van Persie (0.53 per game).
Suarez (0.51 per game).
Ronaldo (0.44 per game).
Balotelli (0.42 per game).
Benzema (0.34 per game).

He's not out of that group as a scorer. In terms of his finals record... he was injured in both the 06 and 10 world cup, it would be remembered. Had it not been the world cup he wouldn't have played a game during the periods.

He's not as bad a player as people are making out.

He will probably become England's top goal scorer... and when you think of the players that proceeded him, thats pretty impressive.

And I'm there's players with better ratios like Peter Crouch. The only question that really needs answering is would we play better and stand a better chance with Rooney in or out of the current team.

Good ratio for someone with 40 caps isn't the same as having a good ratio over 10 years and near 100 caps.

One is having a good 2-3 years... the other is having a good career throughout.

If the press must have a whipping boy then Gerrard is a far better candidate. He's not been anything like for a while now, salvaging his reputation in several games by pulling just enough out of the hat to escape criticism. This WC should see his international career draw to a close.

Rooney doesn't deserve the press he gets by any stretch of the imagination.

Why don't England just play the under 21 team with a few others thrown in?

When Rooney was an unknown force in 2004 he took the tournament by storm... thereafter he's been literally marked out the game.  Messi, Ronaldo... its happened to them all.

Maradona... thats why he's the greatest, even after all the heavy handling he still was the best.

Gerrard for all his plaudits in club football has never pushed himself forward in the national game. He didn't play badly... yet for all that you have to expect your top players to raise their game. At 34 its a little too late for him anyhow. I don't blame him though, I simply think he's been overhyped by the UK media.

If you want a scapegoat don't blame the players or the coaches... they're simply not good enough at the moment. Ashley Cole and John Terry would have improved the side no end IMO and should have gone/recalled back in.

Its the EPL which is at fault. England qualified playes now constitute only 40% of the starters of matches. At the moment they have a 2nd rate domestic league and a 2nd rate national team.... they'll never overtake Spain's hold on the top tier and results domestically won't drop if they bring in quota's.

As long as everyone has quota's it won't harm competitiveness.

aitchw wrote:If the press must have a whipping boy then Gerrard is a far better candidate. He's not been anything like for a while now, salvaging his reputation in several games by pulling just enough out of the hat to escape criticism. This WC should see his international career draw to a close.

Rooney doesn't deserve the press he gets by any stretch of the imagination.

It sounds mean, i know they're just not good enough, but really pleased that we can finally talk about how poor Gerrard has been, forever.

We don't have World Class players, but worse than that, we don't have international standard defenders. That's why we lost.

Also - A few poor selections (pick the best players for he position), poor coaching re positioning (but also poor player intelligence in this regard), and most importantly poor technique receiving the ball under pressure. It adds up.

I don;t believe we'll ever win anything in my lifetime now. I'm OK with that, but I would like to see us get to a semi playing some good stuff just once. That'd be enough for me, just get a tiny modicum of dignity back.

In a weird way, I can probably enjoy the WC a bit more now!

1990
Lucky header vs Egypt
Last minute extra time wonder goal vs Belgium
2 dodgy pens vs Cameroon
S/F vs west germania
We actually played well and we're very unlucky
Doubt it's gonna get any better in my lifetime
I was 13

aitchw wrote:If the press must have a whipping boy then Gerrard is a far better candidate. He's not been anything like for a while now, salvaging his reputation in several games by pulling just enough out of the hat to escape criticism. This WC should see his international career draw to a close.

Rooney doesn't deserve the press he gets by any stretch of the imagination.

I 100% agree. There have been articles reviewing his performance as 'not his usual barnstorming best' for roughly a decade. A great box-to-box midfielder in an era where every other footballing nation has worked out they are completely redundant.

I don't want to kill someone for not being good enough, hardly their fault, or for being over-hyped. But it has done my nut how he's got away without fair criticism of his performances for years. Poor positionally and technically, and way too found of Holywood long balls that reach no-one.

sickofwendy wrote:1990
Lucky header vs Egypt
Last minute extra time wonder goal vs Belgium
2 dodgy pens vs Cameroon
S/F vs west germania
We actually played well and we're very unlucky
Doubt it's gonna get any better in my lifetime
I was 13

  Who put the ball in the English net Sheedy, Sheedy, who put the ball in the English net, Kevin Sheedy did   

Well lets see if the new clutch of kids can do anything. I dont think the manager is the right one though.

Barkley, Wilshire (If he can actually stay fit), Sterling, Shaw, Sturridge are all potentially good.

Think we're missing a big brute at the back though like a Keown or Adams or Terry Butcher.

I didn't watch much of the world cup, but did watch the final minutes of the final last night, saw the goal that won the tournament, was quite impressed with it.

I was struck by the emotions of the Argentinian players after the match, a lot of tears and heartache.

I can't remember a losing finalist ever showing that much emotion in a RWC, strange how different sport is.

For England to suceed the English mentality needs to change. Its not positive enough, there are too many ready made excuses and the belief isnt there.

I think England has players of sufficient ability to get past the last 16 every single time and win it more than once every 1 hundred years. I cant stand domestic English football but I do like the national team and would like to see them preform to a higher standard.

Biltong wrote:I didn't watch much of the world cup, but did watch the final minutes of the final last night, saw the goal that won the tournament, was quite impressed with it.

I was struck by the emotions of the Argentinian players after the match, a lot of tears and heartache.

I can't remember a losing finalist ever showing that much emotion in a RWC, strange how different sport is.

The German goal was out of this world. Balls of steel. I have so much admiration for them.

Argentinians are very emotional. I was in a pub in Dublin last night where Argentinians have gathered for all their games in the WC. The pub is always full and with approx 75% Argentians. The crowd was very rowdy, sang for most of the game. There were two big fights (between two sets of Agrentinian fans) and the one german fan in the pub attracted a lot of attention ranging from friendly banter to death threats. Yes death threats. One guy had to be restrained in the end because the German guy cheered when his team scored. He said to him if Germany win and he cheers after the game he will kill him. He shouted this at the top of his voice until the whole pub stopped.

Very very emotional, almost sad.

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:I didn't watch much of the world cup, but did watch the final minutes of the final last night, saw the goal that won the tournament, was quite impressed with it.

I was struck by the emotions of the Argentinian players after the match, a lot of tears and heartache.

I can't remember a losing finalist ever showing that much emotion in a RWC, strange how different sport is.

The German goal was out of this world. Balls of steel. I have so much admiration for them.

Argentinians are very emotional. I was in a pub in Dublin last night where Argentinians have gathered for all their games in the WC. The pub is always full and with approx 75% Argentians. The crowd was very rowdy, sang for most of the game. There were two big fights (between two sets of Agrentinian fans) and the one german fan in the pub attracted a lot of attention ranging from friendly banter to death threats. Yes death threats. One guy had to be restrained in the end because the German guy cheered when his team scored. He said to him if Germany win and he cheers after the game he will kill him. He shouted this at the top of his voice until the whole pub stopped.

Very very emotional, almost sad.

I suppose sport means different things to different people, I get highly emotive when the Boks play, but when I am angry at them, I don't vent my anger toward others. Interesting

The surprising thing to me is that a lot of bystading Argentinians particularly the males found it acceptable and even funny that this guy was targeting the sole German guy who looked very very intimidated at this point.

How does anyone find it acceptable to goad opposition in such a manner is very puzzling even on high emotions. Its bizarre and higly illogical behaviour and shows just how emotional men can become when watching sport when generally as guys we use logic far more than emotion to make decisions.

Why do people care so much and why do people think its acceptable to act like this?

I think this tournament didn't live up to the hype of the last one, which is understandable given that this tournament was without the heavyweight New Zealand.

On a more light-hearted note, the drain of club football was all too apparent. Players with muscular strains who were never allowed to fully recover from their injuries came to the tournament below their best. Argentina, for example, had di Maria, Messi and Higuain operating well below their best. The award for best player to Messi was most amusing and reminded me of Dusatoir's player of the tournament in the last World Cup: a sympathy vote.

To me there are parallels with other sports. Which moment do you put all your eggs into the basket? Lance Armstrong never competed in the other big races outside the Tour de France. Ok maybe he wanted to cut down on the number of drug tests he had to cheat but it's impossible to be good at everything. In ironman, there are high profile races in Roth or Frankfurt but if you want to compete at Kona (in October) you have to race early and give yourself time to recover.

You cannot expect your top stars to play well all year round. There are peaks and troughs and somewhere compromises have to be made. It helps that Bayern Munich has about 3 squads they can play with no pressure to play every game to win because they're so far ahead in the Bundesliga. Bayern is not the German team by any means but they have talent throughout the squad who weren't exhausted. Reus, from Borussia, was injured and Germany still had so many options to call upon.

Squad strength and lack of fatigue / injury. This is what you need if you want to go far in any World Cup.

Messi was decent but there was probably too much pressure on him and opposition targeted him a lot.

I reckon Macherano was Argentina's best player throughout the tournament and overall Muller was probably the best player in the tournament.

Where were you Guns? I was in the Living Room. They had a room that had German commentary so all the Germans were there. I was with my German girl and a mate, my Deutsch isn't amazing but there was that much noise I wouldn't have gotten anything if it had been in English.

Kia I think 2007 taught NZ that it's kitchen sink time at the QF. No use planning for a journey or pacing yourself because it's knockout football. The All Blacks are the most consistently winning team in world sport-but they lose like every other team. And in WCs all you need is one off game. We staggered over the line in 2011 but the point is we got over the line. I didn't care that we were under the cosh-didn't care that it was only one point. We won. The fact that we can also win by playing dazzling rugby to watch only means that it's another approach we can take to world cups-so it helps our versatility.

Scrap the RC in WC years. Nobody gives two sh!ts about it and it's a poisoned chalice in WC years anyway.

And yes that Götze goal was out of this world. Moving between Dortmund and Munich can make a player very unpopular in Germany-you could say he's redeemed himself.

I was with my Argentinan girl in the Trinity Arch on Dame Street. There was a queue of about 100 people trying to get in before the game.

The living room sounds good. Never been there.

Exactly dc. It's too easy to over-think things.

It's interesting to note the curse of the 'perfect' semi final is equally applicable in both sports. Germany had the ideal game against Brazil and in a way that hurt them in the final. It's mentally hard to pick yourself up from being on fire to being burned. NZ encountered the same thing with their impressive victory over Australia and nearly got undone by France. It worked out for them but in 95 that bruising final was light years from the adrenaline rush of the semi against England whereas SA's close run thing against France made it easier for the Boks to have that siege mentality about them. A similar thing happens for NZ in pool play: it's not possible to replicate high pressure moments from games with little or no pressure in them. I guess that's why it's compelling to watch.

Guns
 
I think the problem with the England footballers is that they dont give a S*#t about playing for their country...they just want to play for their club. Playing for England is a hassle that they cant be bothered with. You can tell by simply watching them sing the national anthem.
 
The whole mentality needs to change...alas it wont.
 
Oh and as to my one major irritation...the diving! Why is Arjan Robben not pulled over the coals for his absolutely shocking theatrics.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Guns
 
I think the problem with the England footballers is that they dont give a S*#t about playing for their country...they just want to play for their club. Playing for England is a hassle that they cant be bothered with. You can tell by simply watching them sing the national anthem.
 
The whole mentality needs to change...alas it wont.
 
Oh and as to my one major irritation...the diving! Why is Arjan Robben not pulled over the coals for his absolutely shocking theatrics.

Thats part of the reason I hate domestic football in England. It has become too powerful. It reminds me of an only child in a really rich family that gets everything they want.

Speaking of Arjen Robben he wasnt the only one. Brazil dived at all opportunity. Also does no one else find it astounding that Robben aged 30 is able to run around in 30 degrees plus heat at top speed for 90 minutes seemingly without ever getting tired? How does he do it?

Nice Guns. Argentines are beauties I tell you-and so are the Germans. If I'd been single I'd have been operating last night I tell you. Phenomenal crumpet there. Phenomenal.

Kia I saw an All Whites football shirt on sale here for 20 Euro. Win.

GF agree about Robben. First class player, first class tool. Rugby players play on the edge of the laws but to cheat in such a way is disgusting-seeing him stuff up that 1 on 1 with Casillas in the 2010 final-well it couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke. Was part of a triumverate including Drogba and Terry that made me really not like Chelsea.

If Argentina prove really tough to break down it'd be a bonus because Ireland and France are good enough to catch us cold and send us home in the QF. NZ don't lose pool games and whilst every WC winner has been unbeaten I still reckon that having tough opposition in the pools helps the team for sure-that siege mentality others are alluding to.

disneychilly wrote:Nice Guns. Argentines are beauties I tell you-and so are the Germans. If I'd been single I'd have been operating last night I tell you. Phenomenal crumpet there. Phenomenal.

What a great line. Yes I am quite fond of both too. It was a really good night to be out and about.

G'Wan Germany!         

Wow, your ability to relate anything to Munster never fails to amaze me Sin.   

20 euro for an All Whites shirt! Win for Nike if people are stupid enough to fork out that money for an oversized hanky!

Where's your sense of pride Kia? (Unless you have a black one)

I have my adidas AB shirt with no AIG sponsor on it. I wear my All White taiaha on the inside...

... where it conveniently can't be seen.