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Why doesn't England cheat their way to World Cup Glory?

I'm serious, I watch teams getting into the later stages of world cups and I feel gutted that England try and play fair rather than kick, dive, elbow and deceive our way through the group and knockout stages.

Lets be honest would anyone really feel disappointed if we got to a QF/SF or Final by conning an under experienced Fifa Ref?

I wouldn't, maybe its time we changed our approach of trying to bore the opposition to death and cheat, like the rest of them.

I think you'll find that England weren't waving imaginary cards around, nor surrounding the referee and the diving hasn't been as prolific or blatant as say Brazil.

If you actually looked at the England team instead of glowering with rage when you see the word England, you'd see we're not as dismal as you seem to insist. (Also must point out that your showing a lot of interest in a team you don't really care about.)

We've a young team that could grown into a good squad, World Beaters, who knows as they haven't fully matured yet, it would be nice to see and I'll cheer them on but as long as we're in exciting games and play decent football then I'll be happy to lose.

Who on here's asserted we're a big, feared team that deserves to do well? (again your rage is getting the better of you)
England are a respected footballing nation throughout the world and a win against them is still seen as a mark of a good team (same as Italy really,)
Nobody owes England anything but to suggest we're a 3rd tier nation shows you have major issues when it comes to England and English football in general.

Well, you played ok against a team that also went out, and very average against a team that beat you with you Wimbledon style tactic.

You say you've a young team that could turn into a good squad. ALmost every country can say that, not to mention England have been saying for decades they've got a young squad that could grow into something special.

In what way aren't England a third tier nation? Second tier nations would get to QF's very regularly, they are probably Second tier in a Euro context, but third rate in World Cups,
Once again, I like England, the English etc, I just can't stand the over-reaction to Englands failure, as if they somehow failed and ought to have done better, or that the lack of cheating has held them back.
I'm also not coming from a Scottish viewpoint because I couldn't give a toss about the team or SCotland in general.

Do you follow International Football at all? The only person saying that England (think) they deserve to win everything is YOU,

The only person saying that England could progress further solely by cheating is also YOU.

England are currently ranked 10th in the world so how that makes them a 3rd tier nation I'll never know.

I don't think you do like the English at all as I haven't seen anyone saying we didn't deserve to go out of this world cup or that we should have got anywhere. The only person arguing that is you.

If I thought you were coming from a Scottish view point I would have mentioned it but your not daft enough to try and WUM with that.

Derby, If you think the World Rankings are a fair reflection of the actual top teams you are deluded.
Let me remind you that England were ranked 4 about 18 months ago, and not even a rabid England fan would claim they were ever the 4th best team.
2nd Tier nations do well in Major competitions but don't challenge.

You were the one saying England SHOULD cheat.

The rankings are there for a reason so people like yourself can't just make stuff up and paint it as fact.

If you read through you'll see I actually said that as it's becoming a part of the game the country as a whole needs to embrace it, this will stop the unfair advantage that other teams that do learn this have.

My actual opinion on it is that Cheaters should be banned, 1 game for a first offence etc. Unfortunately most of the rest of the world don't share this view and the various federations don't seem to want to do anything about it. Therefore eventually we have to learn that aspect of the game. (As much as I hate to say it)

Your the one that said cheating gave NO benefits to the team that does it, despite the numerous evidence to the contrary and have used every post as an opportunity to bash the England team and it's fans, The evidence therefore points to the fact you don't like England nor it's fans.

Y

So one one hand you want England to cheat, but on the other you want cheats to be banned?

I don't want any team to cheat. I don't particularly like the England football team, because people think they are a big team and people like Tyldsley can't get through a non related game without mentioning them as if they "should" have been there, but I've nothing against England the country, or English people.
There are certainly fewer loathsome players in the England squad than there used to be, you don't need to dislike England to be realistic that they are actually not a very good tournament team. I'm not saying anything that is news there or untrue.

Morning English hater,

Read the post again I stated that cheating has become a part of the game now, if the federations wanted it stamped out then it would be. It's not exactly a difficult problem to stop.

As such to stop giving other teams an unfair advantage it will eventually have to be pushed on our players (It's already prevalent in the premier league.)

Again as I stated the only person i've even heard state England should be winning is you. (And Duty TBF but he's got youthful exuberrance on his side :-)

It might surprise you though but the reason the english commentators mention the England team is because (this is a big shock now) they're broadcasting to English fans. I actually haven't heard any of them state we should win it though.

On another note, you don't have to like England, just be up front about it and try and not let it discolour your view of the actual fans. Stay in your little bubble and continue to believe that cheats don't prosper   

There's one way for England to improve their tournament chances.
GET BETTER AT FOOTBALL.

Do cheats prosper? We've seen plenty of divers get carded, and is any ref seriously going to give a card because players are waiving imaginary ones in his face.
I agree with SR in that England or any other team would not benefit from cheating more. Yes, there will be occasions when it works, but it can backfire.

super_realist wrote:There's one way for England to improve their tournament chances.
GET BETTER AT FOOTBALL.

Maybe, or get a manager in who can get the best out of them and get better at cheating/gamesmanship.  

'Yes, there will be occasions when it works, but it can backfire.'

Therefore cheats do prosper, At the end of this world cup find the stats for diving/tugging shirts/shouting at the ref and then find the stats of those that were punished.

Or I can paint the picture for you. Look at any game and see the diving and theatrics and then see how many people get booked for it. Again shows cheats prosper. And it ruins it for the honest player that stays on his feet as the refs now won't give anything unless you go down.

@SR
Quick little fella, get yourself down to the FA with insight like that you'll be a shoo in for the next managers job.

Scrumpy wrote:

super_realist wrote:There's one way for England to improve their tournament chances.
GET BETTER AT FOOTBALL.

Maybe, or get a manager in who can get the best out of them and get better at cheating/gamesmanship.  

I think there is a fair degree of turd polishing. England don't do all that well regardless of who is in charge. WOuld a Morinho or Ferguson improve them? Unlikely.

They're at a low ebb, not sure how a manager could make a team more skillful, besides no truly top manager would take the backward step of taking the job on, so it's moot.

Derbymanc wrote:'Yes, there will be occasions when it works, but it can backfire.'

Therefore cheats do prosper, At the end of this world cup find the stats for diving/tugging shirts/shouting at the ref and then find the stats of those that were punished.

Or I can paint the picture for you. Look at any game and see the diving and theatrics and then see how many people get booked for it. Again shows cheats prosper. And it ruins it for the honest player that stays on his feet as the refs now won't give anything unless you go down.

@SR
Quick little fella, get yourself down to the FA with insight like that you'll be a shoo in for the next managers job.

Is shirt tugging cheating? Possibly is, but then so is claiming a throw in when you know it touched your boot, or putting your arm up for off-side when you know the man is on. These sort of things have always happened, I thought we were looking at players who dived.

(Gritted teeth time again   )

No top manager would take the England job unless they were on the slide as regardless of what you do, the press will follow you everywhere and everyone will be split on how you do.

Plus with a Top Top manager, the press will not only expect us to win, they'll be expecting us to sweep aside everyone.

While I disagree with the polishing a Turd bit (We're not as bad as your trying to force us to See) I don't see another manager getting the best out of us at this time.


@Stella,

Take shirt tugging out of it and check the diving stats on their own then. The amount of players dived to players booked will still be a plus in the former column, therefore showing that cheats can and do prosper.

Players that feign injury and cause a game to be stopped, only then get up when they have achieved their goal of getting a fellow professional carded or warned should be sent to the side-line for a small period for 'injury assessment'.

The contacts and results of the injury assessment (conducted by an independent physician) should be reviewed after match's by a panel and any retrospective bans for diving should be handed out.

This would cut out the Neymar effect and send a clear warning that this will not be tolerated.

Michael Owen - dived for Alan Shearer's penalty vs. Argentina 1998.
Gary Lineker - admits running into Cameroon goalie for 3rd penalty which was the decisive one in 1990. Didn't dive but didn't try and score either and went into contact knowing he would be fouled.

To say England don't do it is not exactly true but its not the reason why England lose. It just gives England another excuse (like they're unlucky at penalties etc) to paper over the real cracks causing exit and defeat tournament after tournament.

Both those examples are from a few years ago, these current crops of players are a little lacking in gamesmanship. StevieG was a fine example vs Uruguay as was the lack of protest against the Uruguay Captain who was already booked when he produced a 2nd bookable offence.

These modern guys are just as bad. Sure they don't go for the over dramatic like their latin cousins but thats ingrained their culture.

I doubt it would have a change in England's results anyhow. You have to get into those areas in the first place to dive.

It's not just the diving though, it's the gamesmanship, waving imaginary cards in the refs faces etc etc. You konw the main part of the game these days

I think though England have been bad in their own ways.

Remember the abuse that the ref got after Beckham was sent off in 1998. The ref in 2004 I think when England were knocked out by Portugal... I think both didn't work again due to the abuse they got post match.

Gamesmanship, little words in the ear I don't think are bad. The card waving I thought was banned? Captains main job outside of his as a player should be to get the referee on his side, speak with him not at him.

In rugby Warren Gatland admitted choosing Sam Warburton as his British Lions captain in part because he spoke so well with referees and was able to put his point across without being dismissed.

Gerrard looks all at sea as captain now his inspirational runs from deep and long range shots have dried up.

Has a referee ever given a card because some player has waved an imaginary card at them?
The only one I can actually think of is when Gazza waved the card a ref had dropped at the ref and got booked for it.

I see England and every other team appeal throw-in's, claim ridiculous hand balls, corners, off-sides etc when they know it isn't theirs. I see England and every other team do the ghastly "shepherding" the ball out and I see England and every other team hold the ball in a corner, and I see England and every other team waste time too. I've seen England and every other team in the refs faces and gesticulating to linesmen.


No team is that fair, honest or gentlemanly. Let's not pretend England play in a more corinthian spirit than any other.

Yes they have, look through google and through the various leagues (esp Italy) and you'll see the refs have always been influenced by things like this, hence why the premier league tried to stop it from happening. Same with surrounding players (In 1 of the 1/4's the ref give a corner, the opposing players went up to him and argued and he changed it to a goal kick.

Shepherding the ball out is an actual part of football, other wise you might as well just let everybody tackle you, so that's out the window, as is holding the ball in the corner. Otherwise you'd have to make a rule where each team has to push forward all of the time.

Take your English hating specs of SR and you'll see that most of us England fans, don't say we're whiter than white but we've been a hell of a lot whiter than a lot of the other teams this year.

Derby, How many times, I'm not an English hater, but if you took your English loving specs off, you might see they are no better than lots of other teams. Granted there will be certain teams that take it too far and are far more blatant, and while England might not be in their bracket, they are no angels.

It doesn't have to necessarily be outright "cheating" but England love a bit of gamesmanship too, holding the ball in the corner and shepherding the ball out aren't against the rules, but they aren't in the spirit of the game.

Every point you've made is to try and say English fans think we should be winning everything and getting faux offended when you've been called out on it.

You thought Costa Rican footballers were well paid (600 dollars a month they're trying to get as a minimum wage) and even said cheating has never helped any team progress despite evidence to the contrary.

At no point have I said England are better than a lot of teams, think you'll find i've said (constantly) that I didn't expect us to get through the group stage and my idea for success in the Euro's is for us to make 1/4's. You have this image that every England fan on here thinks we should be winning everything.

Gamesmanship is a made up word to try and make cheating sound better. Gamesmanship is not holding the ball at the corner flag to run down the clock, nor is it shepherding the ball out of play, or passing it around the centre circle, these are things all allowed within the rules of the game.

Haranguing the ref, waving imaginary cards, shirt pulling, using the opposition to help you jump higher, diving, 2 footed tackles, digs in the back, handballs etc are out and out cheating

In fact the only part i'd say you could try and say is gamesmanship is what Krull did when he was yapping to the penalty takers.

Gerrard has gone down too easy on more than one occasion for Liverpool. The fact is, we dive/go down at the slightest touch just as much as most teams. Look at Sturridge vs Costa Rica.

Completely disagree there Stella, for one Internationals are different to domestic otherwise we'd be saying how great Stevie G's been for England.

If you want to see how far cheating can get you, look at Brazil at the moment. Kicking lumps out of the other team and roll around as if they'd been shot. Whinging at the referee and gesturing to the linesman at any opportunity.

Unfortunately for football it's here to stay and the player that decides to be honest and stay on his feet is likely to be laughed at for doing that which is the real problem.

We do dive as much as most teams, you've mentioned one. The only thing we don't do, is waive the imaginary cards.

Derbymanc wrote:Every point you've made is to try and say English fans think we should be winning everything and getting faux offended when you've been called out on it.

You thought Costa Rican footballers were well paid (600 dollars a month they're trying to get as a minimum wage) and even said cheating has never helped any team progress despite evidence to the contrary.

At no point have I said England are better than a lot of teams, think you'll find i've said (constantly) that I didn't expect us to get through the group stage and my idea for success in the Euro's is for us to make 1/4's. You have this image that every England fan on here thinks we should be winning everything.

Gamesmanship is a made up word to try and make cheating sound better. Gamesmanship is not holding the ball at the corner flag to run down the clock, nor is it shepherding the ball out of play, or passing it around the centre circle, these are things all allowed within the rules of the game.

Haranguing the ref, waving imaginary cards, shirt pulling, using the opposition to help you jump higher, diving, 2 footed tackles, digs in the back, handballs etc are out and out cheating

In fact the only part i'd say you could try and say is gamesmanship is what Krull did when he was yapping to the penalty takers.

NOt at all, I've simply said that England like to see themselves as being the kings of fair play (or at least "fairer" than others (hence the title "IF you can't beat em......) Whereas they adopt tactics just as bad as many other teams.

It's no point saying "those things aren't against the rules" Kicking the ball in an opponents face repeatedly isn't against the rules, but it would be frowned upon.

Time wasting and "lawful" obstruction are just as injurious to the game as everything you claim other teams are guilty of.
It's not against the rules to "claim" you have a throwin, offside, penalty etc even when you know it isn't true.

Ironically, the most sporting things I've seen done have been by an Italian and a German, correcting a ref, (I think Fowler did once too actually)

So basically, England haven't a history of waving imaginary flags, and that's it.

the difference is though is the after event which I agree with.

Latin players tend to over do their dives and injuries. They fall over like they've been hit by a missile. Its in their culture, always has been, always will be. They have no problem with trying to trick the ref. In the UK they would ridiculed in Latin countries they are held up with pride. Its a culture thing.

Anyone who has played rugby knows that a slight knock won't cause you to hit the floor. It takes a lot in reality

Watch Maradona in the old days... yes he would dive sometimes but very often he would be cut in half and still stayed on his feet because quite often he knew that a free kick with all players back is not as good as retaining possession on the break with a 3 on 3 rather than a 6 on 10 scenario with a free kick. Messi is the same... he does not go down easy although Maradona in today's game would simply be unstoppable.... Messi doesn't touch him for that.

Unless you have a chap like Beckham in your side who consistently hits the target with his freekicks, chances are the attempt will hit the wall, sky well over etc.

For me England players go down too easily and in fact its detrimental to their chances. They're not dangerous with freekicks and their players are useless at attacking headers at corners so whats the point.

Keep the ball, stay on your feet. Its Englands best chance of scoring... when was the last time England scored a header from a cross/corner or from a freekick???

Fowler dived then thought 'sh.t that looked bad' , so decided to act the good guy. That's my opnion on the incident anyway.

super_realist wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Every point you've made is to try and say English fans think we should be winning everything and getting faux offended when you've been called out on it.

You thought Costa Rican footballers were well paid (600 dollars a month they're trying to get as a minimum wage) and even said cheating has never helped any team progress despite evidence to the contrary.

At no point have I said England are better than a lot of teams, think you'll find i've said (constantly) that I didn't expect us to get through the group stage and my idea for success in the Euro's is for us to make 1/4's. You have this image that every England fan on here thinks we should be winning everything.

Gamesmanship is a made up word to try and make cheating sound better. Gamesmanship is not holding the ball at the corner flag to run down the clock, nor is it shepherding the ball out of play, or passing it around the centre circle, these are things all allowed within the rules of the game.

Haranguing the ref, waving imaginary cards, shirt pulling, using the opposition to help you jump higher, diving, 2 footed tackles, digs in the back, handballs etc are out and out cheating

In fact the only part i'd say you could try and say is gamesmanship is what Krull did when he was yapping to the penalty takers.

NOt at all, I've simply said that England like to see themselves as being the kings of fair play (or at least "fairer" than others (hence the title "IF you can't beat em......) Whereas they adopt tactics just as bad as many other teams.

It's no point saying "those things aren't against the rules" Kicking the ball in an opponents face repeatedly isn't against the rules, but it would be frowned upon.

Time wasting and "lawful" obstruction are just as injurious to the game as everything you claim other teams are guilty of.
It's not against the rules to "claim" you have a throwin, offside, penalty etc even when you know it isn't true.

Ironically, the most sporting things I've seen done have been by an Italian and a German, correcting a ref, (I think Fowler did once too actually)

So basically, England haven't a history of waving imaginary flags, and that's it.

Lawful obstruction has been a part of the game for a long long time, you plum. It's nowhere near on a par with the others that I've mentioned. The fact that your bigoted towards English fans doesn't allow you to see that.

The OP is correct whereas we don't play act/cheat as much as the other big teams. It's one of the reasons people like Gary Neville are telling us we need to learn to do it better. (Said well before the World Cup and when he was punditting for Sky during the season.)

England don't have as much of a history as other nations, watch Brazil/Germany or even Argentina to see some world class divers. Back on the CS list for you

http://online.wsj.com/articles/the-world-rankings-of-flopping-1403660175

England near the bottom there

fa0019 wrote:the difference is though is the after event which I agree with.

Latin players tend to over do their dives and injuries. They fall over like they've been hit by a missile. Its in their culture, always has been, always will be. They have no problem with trying to trick the ref. In the UK they would ridiculed in Latin countries they are held up with pride. Its a culture thing.

Anyone who has played rugby knows that a slight knock won't cause you to hit the floor. It takes a lot in reality

Watch Maradona in the old days... yes he would dive sometimes but very often he would be cut in half and still stayed on his feet because quite often he knew that a free kick with all players back is not as good as retaining possession on the break with a 3 on 3 rather than a 6 on 10 scenario with a free kick. Messi is the same... he does not go down easy although Maradona in today's game would simply be unstoppable.... Messi doesn't touch him for that.

Unless you have a chap like Beckham in your side who consistently hits the target with his freekicks, chances are the attempt will hit the wall, sky well over etc.

For me England players go down too easily and in fact its detrimental to their chances. They're not dangerous with freekicks and their players are useless at attacking headers at corners so whats the point.

Keep the ball, stay on your feet. Its Englands best chance of scoring... when was the last time England scored a header from a cross/corner or from a freekick???

Whilst I agree with this 100 percent I feel the problem is that these days your likely to get nothing if you stay on your feet, hence when someones in the box they go down like they've been shot to try and gain the penalty. The truly great players can read the game better so can make that split second decision on whether it's better to try anyway. England have no truly great players and therefore when they do go down it's even more detrimental.

(It's also why we applaud Sterling for running into players all the time, a lack of truly great players.)

I know it's "part" of the game, but it doesn't make it a good thing. "Gamesmanship" is part of the game, but it doesn't mean you have to do it.
I'll look forward to the next England game where I am sure to see NO diving, NO claiming for throw ins, free-kicks, penalties, offsides etc when you know it's not yours, NO shouting/wearing at/to the ref, NO haranging Linesmen, NO playing a ball when it's out of play, NO wasting time, NO over-acting injuries, NO pretending a tackle has hurt them too.
Or perhaps, that's all alright, so long as they don't wave an "imaginary card"
How refreshing that game will be.

Your hate for the English is blinding you again.

Are you this much of a prat in your real life?

I suppose you must be the type that thinks a clip round the ankles is the same as a 2 footed red blooded tackle.

Derbymanc wrote:http://online.wsj.com/articles/the-world-rankings-of-flopping-1403660175

England near the bottom there

You normally have to have the ball to 'flop'

I have never heard anyone call sheperding the ball out of play 'ghastly' WTF.

Derbymanc wrote:Your hate for the English is blinding you again.

Are you this much of a prat in your real life?

I suppose you must be the type that thinks a clip round the ankles is the same as a 2 footed red blooded tackle.

I've consistently said they are no better than any team. That's not singling England out, but the very creation of a thread entitled "If you can beat em....." suggests that people think England don't cheat or take part in gamesmanship. They do, it seems so far that the only thing about England is that they don't wave imaginary flags.

I was hoping you wouldn't pick up on that bit Stella   

Must admit I looked at that and seen Italy just above us and my first thought was, 'wonder what that would be stretched over the same amount of games'

You don't understand West, cause England do it, then it becomes ghastly. All of them things are EXACTLY the same, divings the same as holding the ball in the corner. tripping someones the same as a headbutt, and biting, well why shouldn't we be allowed to bite if people have the audacity to thing the ball went off another player. sheesh some people 

Stella wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:http://online.wsj.com/articles/the-world-rankings-of-flopping-1403660175

England near the bottom there

You normally have to have the ball to 'flop'

Appears that the minutes/writhe would have England pretty much on top of the rankings.