Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2

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Part 1; https://www.606v2.com/t53882p950-ulster-2014-2015

We've been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Our pre-season concludes when we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. It'll be a big relief to see the action at Ravenhill moving from the headlines to the pitch

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Hookers
Rory Best, Rob Herring (Jonny Murphy, John Andrew*)
Props
Callum Black, Ruaidhrí Murphy, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Wiehahn Herbst, Dave Ryan, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Kyle McCall(?)
Locks
Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Lewis Stevenson, Neil McComb
Backrow
Robbie Diack, Conor Joyce, Chris Henry, Mike McComish, Sean Reidy, Charlie Butterworth, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson (Clive Ross**)
Scrum-half
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney
Outhalf
Paddy Jackson, Ian Humphreys
Centres
Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey
Wings
Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
Fullback
Louis Ludik, Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Peter Nelson

*Academy hookers training with first team squad
**Clive Ross, cousin of Mike, is on trial

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

ECC; Leicester Tigers (A)
ECC; RC Toulon (H)

My guess is that most of the good English refs are needed for the Premiership and Championship.

The problem we have is that we keep seeing the same refs no matter how poorly they perform,if a rookie ref made the exact same mistakes as Fitzgibbon has over the last few weeks at least you could say he is learning and will hopefully improve.I think a new ref would be given some slack to make mistakes and learn whereas watching a ref produce the same inept performance week after week and year after year is just incredibly frustrating.

What frustrates me is the TMO. It is such an almighty waste of time and when it isn't improving the decision making processes accuracy what on earth is the point of it?

If it was leading towards getting more decisions right then fair enough but in several games this season you see the ref go upstairs they look at it from every angle and they still get it wrong

Lets not forget that Zebre had two tries disallowed, one through TMO and one from touchjudge.

I think the only blame can go to the tv broadcaster. There should be standards. You have to roll out the same level of quality in TMO footage or not do it at all - surely!

I'm more annoyed about the fact that eye gouging is still happening. It is utterly sickening. Almost to the point of not caring about a rugby result. Anyone who decides to stick his fingers into someones eyes should get more than one clean punch. Who cares about rugby - people like that should pay one way or the other.

Disgusting.

Well you would have thought we could work with other leagues maybe borrow an English or French ref for the weekend or something, we really need to work on weeding out the refs that are not good enough and replace them with someone better, we can say that there are none but how do we know if we don't try. I mean for example David Wilkinson is an excellent referee anytime I have come across him and the leader of the Ulster refs development program but is rarely on the whistle in the Pro 12 while someone like Fitzgibbon is

It is quite sad that fans go into a match dreading the Clownshoes/Gibbon mistake that they know may cost them the match. Nigel Owens has said many times in interviews that refereeing a match perfectly is not possible but similarly there have been threads on these boards before asking where the transparency is in terms of how referees are sanctioned/admonished for making a pair of old man love sacks out of important decisions. I still don't know how it works - it's a black box as far as the world of referees is concerned.

I would rather have refs making errors than watch the constantly interrupted spectacles we're getting this season. The gibbon needs taken aside and told that he has to make decisions for himself or face a lengthy spell on the touchlines of schools rugby (not that I would wish him on schools rugby).

I agree, that too many refs use the TMO as a cop out. The ref for the Edinburgh and Scarlet last Friday night on the other hand was very good.So not all refs are a liability.

Certainly not LD, there are decent refs available. The gibbon simply stands out at one who kills games and is far too influential in their outcome. In Ulster's case on saturday he didn't make players knock the ball on, throw errant passes or make less than brilliant decisions but he did stop the game every five minutes for a chat with his TMO. I wonder did anyone time the game on saturday to see how long the players were actually on the pitch. A tad more than average I would guess.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/white-steps-down-from-sharks-fuelling-rumours-of-arrival-at-ulster-1.1945718

I know it's been talked about but I've only just seen this article from Thornley. even he wants to fuel the rumours.....


Anybody heard anything about the injury to our injury joker Raaymakers?
For that matter is there any news on St Ruan?

Bernard Jackman very impressed with Chris Farrell - thinks he's an outside chance of being a RWC dark horse. Could play 13, apparently.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2014/0930/649072-podcast-time-to-panic-at-thomond-park/

While playing at Grenoble? I doubt it! But you never know. Hopefully we bring him back after he develops.

http://fcgrugby.com/index.php/a-la-une/5754-l-le-championnat-de-france-est-tres-imprevisible-r#.VCv2_S6wK7s

Farrell is a victim of our midfield glut of players. He always looked to be a damn good prospect, one I was sorry to see let go. All for the ambitions of 'Windy'.....

http://www.emeraldrugby.com/News/Ulster-News/Fitzpatrick-suspension-reduced-to-1-week.aspx

Deccie banned for one week.

Pete330v2 wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/white-steps-down-from-sharks-fuelling-rumours-of-arrival-at-ulster-1.1945718

I know it's been talked about but I've only just seen this article from Thornley. even he wants to fuel the rumours.....

The official statements all mention international aspirations, things could get messy if it pitches up in Belfast but others seem to think theres more to him leaving the Sharks

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/rugby/why-jake-white-left-sharks-1.1757673#.VCwJqFfnGOY

"In the absence of any aggravating factors and in light of several compelling mitigating factors, including the player's exemplary previous playing record, the Committee applied a one week reduction from the entry point and suspended the player from playing for one week. "

Hmmm. Wonder what those "mitigating factors" were.

Mitigating factors would suggest the player was provoked by gouging and therefore should never have received a red card with the end result that the citing never happened. The committee, guilty of self denial, would instantaneously implode into a singularity, the foetal beginning of a new universe.

Missing Deccie 'sicknote' for a week is less time off than he's usually used to in a season.

Ulster Ravens team to play Connacht A, Thursday 2nd October, Deramore Park, 3.00pm:

(15-9): Ricky Andrew; Jack Owens, Michael Allen, Luke Marshall, Ross Adair; Sean O’Hagan, David Shanahan; (1-8): Callum Black, John Andrew, Dave Ryan, John Donnan, Neil McComb, Sean Reidy, Clive Ross, Mike McComish;

Replacements: Kyle McCall, Johnny Murphy, Ricky Lutton, James Simpson, Frankie Taggart, John Creighton, Josh Bingham, Sam Arnold, Ryan Campbell, Jonny Rosborough, Charlie Butterworth.

Interesting. You can work out our team from that. We may have a better 12 playing for the Ravens than will be lining out for any other province.

O'Connor must be our bench second row? Hopefully Jared at 15, Ludik on the bench.

Don Alfonso wrote:Ulster Ravens team to play Connacht A, Thursday 2nd October, Deramore Park, 3.00pm:

(15-9): Ricky Andrew; Jack Owens, Michael Allen, Luke Marshall, Ross Adair; Sean O’Hagan, David Shanahan; (1-8): Callum Black, John Andrew, Dave Ryan, John Donnan, Neil McComb, Sean Reidy, Clive Ross, Mike McComish;

Replacements: Kyle McCall, Johnny Murphy, Ricky Lutton, James Simpson, Frankie Taggart, John Creighton, Josh Bingham, Sam Arnold, Ryan Campbell, Jonny Rosborough, Charlie Butterworth.

Interesting.  You can work out our team from that. We may have a better 12  playing for the Ravens than will be lining out for any other province.

Never understood why they have some of the Ravens games on weekday afternoons,most schools are still in and people are at work. Surely better having a bit later or in the evening

Agreed, but can't focus on anything other than the possibility of a Jackson - Bowe - Olding - Timble - Payne back line just now. Feeling woozy.

Hmm. Why no Gilroy? 24th man?

Obviously I was palpitating so much I left Cave out.

It'll be Ludik at 15 and Payne at 13, I bet Don. Payne has only had one competitive appearance at 13 and he went off injured very early. Regardless of who is in pole position to play 13 against Leicester, the Ireland guys will want to look at Jared in that position. This is a good opportunity to try him out there.

As for Louis Ludik, well, he's actually been better than Payne or Cave this season so far. So he's made himself one of the first names on the teamsheet.

I would have

9. Marshall
10. Jackson
11. Bowe
12. Olding
13. Payne
14. Trimble
15. Ludik

21. Heaney 22. McCloskey/Cave 23. Gilroy

I know McCloskey was the least terrible player against Zebra, but him benching ahead of Marshall is crazy talk.

I suspect you're right about who lines out where, but I so want to see the backline I suggested. Cave could only be on the bench because everyone else can shuffle round. Maybe a half each with Payne?

I actually really rate McCloskey. I would say so too but Marshall we now isn't involved this week.

I feel like Marshall is between two styles. If we want a 12 who can crash the ball up, is a powerful carrier and strike runner and can offload nicely McCloskey is great at that. If we want a 12 who just oozes rugby class and offloading ability, has feet that can get him through gaps the size of postage stamps, offers a kicking option from hand and from the tee and has a brilliant sense of the game as its unfolding around him then Olding is the natural choice.

Marshall is closer to Olding in terms of his natural game but he's been trying to play like McCloskey for the last year. He doesn't have the size and power of McCloskey and he doesn't quite have the vision and feet of Olding. He does have a great range of passing, good kicking game and pace and strength. I always thought he would be like Paddy Wallace but with an extra few stone bit actually Olding has turned out to be more like that.

Marshall is a brilliant player, I just don't think he's figured out the kind of player he wants to be.

I don't think the issue is what sort of player HE wants to be at all. Anscombe played him as a boshing cconcussion magnet for two seasons. He needs to be let off the leash a bit.

An article from last week about Marshall and the type of player he wants to be, for anyone who hasn't read it.


AS QUIETLY SPOKEN as Luke Marshall is, he doesn’t waste much time before cutting to the point.
So when he sat down to pass his thoughts our way through the magic of the internet he waited all of six seconds before addressing his own shortcomings during the bonus point win over Zebre two weeks ago.
Never mind that it was his first start of the new season or that his appearance as a replacement against the Scarlets the week before had him playing in the unfamiliar outside centre role. That’s just “making excuses” as far as the 23-year-old is concerned.
“It was a drop below the standard I’ve set for myself, so I’m looking to improve on that over the next while.”
That straight talking has at times seemed to mirror his performances on the field. In recent seasons, Marshall has often had to curb his creative instincts for the good of team. The line-breaking tyro that burst on the international scene in 2013 became more of a traditional bash-it-up-the-middle style inside centre.
Now, though Paddy Wallace has retired, the return to fitness of Stuart Olding has made midfield selection a tricky conundrum at the newly named Kingspan Stadium. Marshall feels that he will have to rediscover some of the old magic to keep the young pretender at bay.
“I suppose I have changed a little bit over the last few seasons. I was playing a little bit more direct. I still have the other style of play in my repertoire. And that’s one of the things this year I’m working hard on, to bring it out again.
“Maybe the last couple of seasons I’ve been a bit more one-dimensional, but I feel I can still bring that to the game. Obviously with Stuarty bringing that as well I need to up my game to be competing with him.”
Last weekend, during the win over the Cardiff Blues, it was Olding and Darren Cave who filled the midfield, with Louis Ludik shifting to 13 late on in the game. Marshall was not involved in the matchday squad.
Jared Payne is another strong option for Les Kiss and Neil Doak in the centre this season. There are various combinations and pairings that could yield strong results, including Marshall outside Olding – as in the closing stages of the Pro12 round one draw with the Scarlets.
“It was nice to come on outside Stuarty,” says Marshall. He’s a pretty slick operator at 12 so he is. It’s pretty easy coming on outside of him.
“I hadn’t played too much at 13 before, but I enjoyed it against the Scarlets.”
As for whether the combination would work in reverse, with Marshall in his favoured position and Olding outside, he wouldn’t be drawn,  merely saying “we’ll see what happens”.
Whatever shirt he’s given, Marshall is hoping that improved performances in the coming weeks will mark the closing of a difficult period of concussion and changed tack, and the opening of a new chapter.

A lot of Leinster fans are quick to point out how il-fitting Madigan is to MOC's gameplan (such as it is), and how it has drained his confidence and so on. There may be a bit of truth in that, but I think Ascombe has done a great deal of damage to Masrhall. He has a good step, decent pass, good kicking game, very good timing and can run excellent lines, and he has to all but re-learn all those things. If he wasn't remarkably strong as well, I suspect Anscombe would have dumped him for someone who was.

For me, he needs to be given a chance to work through it. I am massively excited (in a rugby-playing sense) by Olding, but Marshall has earned the right to a bit of patience.

I'm a big fan of Marshall, but the question is where does he fit in at Ulster? It's ironic that he's referring to Stuarty in the article and it could actually mean McCloskey just as much as Olding, (despite being at different ends of the spectrum with Marshall right in the middle).

To build something great not everyone can be an architect - there has to be some bricklayers as well. Ulster are blessed with an array of creative players but that creativity is usually dependent on being able to stretch defences in the first place through brawn. I don't think being forced to bosh was a bad thing for Luke in the long term. Instead of damaging his career it could have given him the ability to play BOTH styles depending on the situation, so rather than falling between two stools he may yet be able to swap seats as required.

Was just doing some calculations whilst posting on the match thread - thought I would put them here rather than go off-topic. We should have quite a half decent team to put out during the AIs.

Assuming we lose Best, Henry, Jackson, Marshall and Olding (one or the other, Marshall in all likelihood), Trimble, Bowe and Payne, we could still field -
Warwick
Herring
Herbst
Van der Merwe
Stevenson
Diack
Ross (?)
Wilson
Marshall
Humphreys
Gilroy
McCloskey (or Olding?)
Cave
A.N. Other (given Allen's injury)
Ludik

That is not too shabby. Very good, powerful front row, very threatening backline.

It definately look promising Don, a better international window lineup than we've ever had probably.

On the subject, your man Raaymaker dislocated his shoulder last week. What's the recovery time for that anyone? Just pop the damn thing in and carry on I say

Usually a few weeks at least mate i'd say 2-3 as a rough estimate but i'm no doctor so could be longer

It depends on the extent of the injury, it was a dislocated shoulder that kept SOB out for the end of last season but he required surgery which is not always the case

Fingers crossed then, it's just so typical that our medical joker would get flippin injured. He looks to be a great ball carrying option and someone that brings loads of grunt to the engine room as well. Maybe they'll even let us keep him although those Kiwis never seem to like belfast as much as the Saffers do

If you want to know why I think that Ulster should be going after Gregor Townsend as our new Head Coach here is why;

http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/15776.php#.VDFJPVbRjwI

He might not be able to replicate this success elsewhere, the chemistry between players and coaches is the secret ingredient of success and that changes at every club. But compare the form he's getting out of Tommy Seymour- a guy who had to leave Ulster because he couldn't nail down a starting spot- compared to the form Seymour showed when at Ulster. Not to mention the form of class players like Jared Payne and Tommy Bowe of late.

I might be being extremely premature, I accept that, but there's a difference between our rotation- in which the players look unsettled and unsure whats happening- and the extremely effective rotation of Glasgow..

Don't get me wrong- in an ideal world I'd like us to retain Les Kiss for two or three seasons as permanent Head Coach to give him time to build that culture. He has the respect and attention of the players and thats a massive part of the problem over the past few years- our head coaches not commanding respect. If Kiss somehow does end up doing a u-turn and staying I'd be very happy. But it looks like he's heading out the door. So if not Townsend himself, someone who can nurture a similar culture to what Glasgow currently have, as well as the ability to rotate just as seamlessly.

So no statement from Ulster yet about the coaching ticket? Very slow. I think it will be Doak for head coach, Kiss for DOR starting next season, and a team manager to fill the gaps until then.

Probably completely wrong

Munchkin wrote:So no statement from Ulster yet about the coaching ticket? Very slow. I think it will be Doak for head coach, Kiss for DOR starting next season, and a team manager to fill the gaps until then.

Probably completely wrong

Thats my guess.

Notch wrote:If you want to know why I think that Ulster should be going after Gregor Townsend as our new Head Coach here is why;

http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/15776.php#.VDFJPVbRjwI

He might not be able to replicate this success elsewhere, the chemistry between players and coaches is the secret ingredient of success and that changes at every club. But compare the form he's getting out of Tommy Seymour- a guy who had to leave Ulster because he couldn't nail down a starting spot- compared to the form Seymour showed when at Ulster. Not to mention the form of class players like Jared Payne and Tommy Bowe of late.

I might be being extremely premature, I accept that, but there's a difference between our rotation- in which the players look unsettled and unsure whats happening- and the extremely effective rotation of Glasgow..

Don't get me wrong- in an ideal world I'd like us to retain Les Kiss for two or three seasons as permanent Head Coach to give him time to build that culture. He has the respect and attention of the players and thats a massive part of the problem over the past few years- our head coaches not commanding respect. If Kiss somehow does end up doing a u-turn and staying I'd be very happy. But it looks like he's heading out the door. So if not Townsend himself, someone who can nurture a similar culture to what Glasgow currently have, as well as the ability to rotate just as seamlessly.

What? What? Hands off our Toonie.

You're right, though. You could do a hell of a lot worse.

What is also clear is that it took Toonie fully 3 years to get a squad like this but similarly he does have to take the credit for a lot of Glasgow's best signings - particularly Matawalu whom he talked away from the 7s circuit and simultaneously demanded that the SRU sign immediately. The fact that he replaced another very good and popular coach (Sean Lineen) and yet still brought the team forward after a not particularly great experience in the Scottish national coaching set up is very much to his credit.

It won't happen don't worry GC! The higher-ups in the IRFU are debating it. Neil Doak it will- and probably should- be. If it's not him its because its Les Kiss. Neil Doak won't stay for long though if he's passed over, I get the impression.

Jaysus. I had to Google him just to check that it was indeed the cricketer that I thought it was.

Obviously a man of Ulster through and through, but what will he be like as a coach.

Someone on another forum (not The Other Forum) says he's heard the back line for this weekend will be:
Jackson
Bowe
Olding
Cave
Timble
Payne

with Marshall and Ludik on bench.

Hallelujah! D4 finally realise Payne isn't an outside centre.

Against Embra I had a feeling that the Payne experiment was over once he was sent back to 15. Hopefully so.

I was also hoping for that back line, Don. McCloskey is a real prospect, but I don't believe he's ready to take the shirt of Marshall/Olding yet going into the next 3 games.
I would like to see O'Conner start for us against Glasgow. He had a good showing v Embra, but would like to see him against a real tough team. Sorry Embra.

Surely it makes perfect sense for Ulster to rest their usual first XXIII?
Wouldn't want them to be over-exerted with all of that European action coming up.

George Carlin wrote:Surely it makes perfect sense for Ulster to rest their usual first XXIII?
Wouldn't want them to be over-exerted with all of that European action coming up.

George Carlin wrote:Jaysus. I had to Google him just to check that it was indeed the cricketer that I thought it was.

Obviously a man of Ulster through and through, but what will he be like as a coach.

Interesting you remember him for his cricket career! I'm not sure if he was a better cricketer than a rugby player because I don't know anything about cricket, but I've heard he was pretty handy.

Apparently as Assistant Coach to both McLaughlin and Anscombe he's had a much more prominent role than the title 'Assistant' would imply. He is highly thought of by others who worked with him. After coaching the Ireland 'A' team together, Anthony Foley apparently sounded him out about the possibility of working with him as Munster Assistant/backs coach this season. Les Kiss, current interim Director of Rugby at Ulster, appointed him Assistant Coach of the national team on the tour of North America when he was interim Ireland Head Coach in 2013 (Les Kiss seems to do a lot of temporary filling of jobs these days doesn't he?)

It appears Les Kiss and Neil Doak both want the job, Doak has been pretty clear it's his ambition to be Head Coach, but Kiss is under contract with the IRFU and unlikely to be excused from Ireland duty until after the RWC. Looks quote possible that Neil Doak is to be appointed permanent Head Coach, and Les Kiss is to become full-time Director of Rugby after the conclusion of the World Cup.

George Carlin wrote:Surely it makes perfect sense for Ulster to rest their usual first XXIII?
Wouldn't want them to be over-exerted with all of that European action coming up.

George you devil. I suspect this one will be taken very seriously indeed by Ulster.

The term must win game is thrown around a lot. But this is a must win game. Any game where a team is on to win at Ravenhill twice in a row is a must win game- teams should not be allowed to get used to winning at Ravenhill. There is a degree of pride here, a reputation to be upheld. Secondly, Glasgow are top of the league. That is where we are targeting being and they cannot be allowed to stretch their lead if we are to overtake them by the end of the season. Thirdly, last season we dominated Glasgow from start to finish at Ravenhill and lost the game. That hurt. I mean, it really hurt.

So for all those reasons, its a must-win game. Can't wait. It's going to be massive!

Raaymakers still coming to Ulster. The dislocated shoulder can't have been that bad. O'Connor seems to have really impressed Ulster Rugby, and hopefully he does so again v Glasgow as we head into the Tigers and Toulon games.

Ulster Rugby:

"With injuries to Dan Tuohy and Iain Henderson and with huge games against Glasgow, Leicester and Toulon coming up, the question as to who will partner Franco van der Merwe in the second row is probably the most pressing selection issue facing the Ulster coaches.

Neil McComb and Lewis Stevenson are contenders, as is new signing Ronald Raaymakers, who joins up with the squad next week. However, on Friday night, a fourth contender made his case for selection.

Academy player, Alan O’Connor, started against Edinburgh and excelled in the 30 points to nil win:....."

O'Connor certainly has leapfrogged McComb

Communal craic, please :
https://www.606v2.com/t55925-ulster-rugby-v-glasgow-warriors-11-october#2797217

Fingers crossed in the Leicester camp that:

 Ayerza, Mulipola, Manu and Bai will be fit for the game against you guys.

 Would be a decent team if that was the case.

 But who knows

 Tait out for 7 weeks.