Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2

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Part 1; https://www.606v2.com/t53882p950-ulster-2014-2015

We've been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Our pre-season concludes when we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. It'll be a big relief to see the action at Ravenhill moving from the headlines to the pitch

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Hookers
Rory Best, Rob Herring (Jonny Murphy, John Andrew*)
Props
Callum Black, Ruaidhrí Murphy, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Wiehahn Herbst, Dave Ryan, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Kyle McCall(?)
Locks
Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Lewis Stevenson, Neil McComb
Backrow
Robbie Diack, Conor Joyce, Chris Henry, Mike McComish, Sean Reidy, Charlie Butterworth, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson (Clive Ross**)
Scrum-half
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney
Outhalf
Paddy Jackson, Ian Humphreys
Centres
Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey
Wings
Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
Fullback
Louis Ludik, Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Peter Nelson

*Academy hookers training with first team squad
**Clive Ross, cousin of Mike, is on trial

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

ECC; Leicester Tigers (A)
ECC; RC Toulon (H)

More to it in that Tuohy is a long-term one. But I wouldn't worry, as it will likely be covered by insurance.

That's possible, Notch, but Raaymaker is on loan, isn't he? Unless Ulster are thinking of bringing him in long term, and then only if IRFU give permission, which is questionable.

No, he's on a short term contract and I do not believe we will be given permission beyond the end of this season, nor will we need it.

However Raaymakers ability to fill in at blindside interests me...

We could do with more cover across the back-row, although Ross and Reidy might provide a solution. Diack does an excellent job there, and doesn't often get enough credit for the amount of work he puts in. With Rayymaker only being short term, and with him not being able to start for a few weeks, I have lost a bit of interest now. We need long term solutions. Another Ferris would do nicely

Ulster team v Tigers:

(15-9): L Ludik; T Bowe, J Payne, S McCloskey, C Gilroy; P Jackson, P Marshall; (1-8): A Warwick, R Best (capt), W Herbst, L Stevenson, F vd Merwe, R Diack, C Henry, N Williams;

Replacements (16-23): R Herring, C Black, D Fitzpatrick, C Ross, R Wilson, M Heaney, S Olding, D Cave

Notch wrote:No, he's on a short term contract and I do not believe we will be given permission beyond the end of this season, nor will we need it.

However Raaymakers ability to fill in at blindside interests me...

The reason Raaymaker hasn't been signed by a Super Rugby franchise is size, he's not thought of as tall enough for the top level (they used to say the same about Tuohy) and he's not considered mobile enough for blindside but then again the Kiwis tend to set their standards higher than most

Payne to centre, Williams starts and Humphs misses out. I would much rather Cave over Payne,  even though Payne did have a good defensive game last week. He didn't offer much in attack, and I think he's slower than Cave.

Edit: completely missed Cave on the bench. It all makes sense now

Big step up for Ross! Hopefully he has a great game should he get on.

15 Mathew Tait
14 Blaine Scully
13 Manusamoa Tuilagi
12 Owen Williams
11 Vereniki Goneva
10 Freddie Burns
9 Ben Youngs (c)
1 Marcos Ayerza
2 Leonardo Ghiraldini
3 Fraser Balmain
4 Brad Thorn
5 Graham Kitchener
6 Jamie Gibson
7 Julian Salvi
8 Jordan Crane

Replacements
16 Harry Thacker
17 Michele Rizzo
18 Tiziano Pasquali
19 Sebastian de Chaves
20 Robert Barbieri
21 David Mele
22 Sam Harrison
23 Miles Benjamin

Hmmm no Allen. What's your thoughts on that team, Welly?

Fearing the worse, Ayerza is a huge plus but Allen is a huge loss he holds the backline together and gets the best out of Manu.

 Also a 20 year old hooker and prop on he bench will be a big ask for them if they come on.

 Should be a easy Ulster win imo, but Leicester can make surprises happen at Welford road.

Welly wrote:Fearing the worse, Ayerza is a huge plus but Allen is a huge loss he holds the backline together and gets the best out of Manu.

 Also a 20 year old hooker and prop on he bench will be a big ask for them if they come on.

 Should be a easy Ulster win imo, but Leicester can make surprises happen at Welford road.

Ulster know all about surprises at Welford Road after winning there last time

You have been hit really hard with injuries, Welly. More so than us. We're missing 1 lock to injury, 1 to a hip operation, and 1 is suspended. We are also missing our form winger in Trimble, and Pienaar who is also recovering from injury. On top of that we are playing our best Fullback out of position, and Jackson has had a poor start to the season due to injuries, and so not much game time.
If we win this, it will be down to us having a stronger pack, with the front row in particular having an advantage, although Ayerza might prove a serious challenge.
This is Leicester though, and in a Euro game. They will come out fighting. I'm slightly more optimistic about a win, especially with Allen out, but only slightly. I still predict a close, and hard fought game.

Munchkin wrote:Ulster team v Tigers:

(15-9): L Ludik; T Bowe, J Payne, S McCloskey, C Gilroy; P Jackson, P Marshall; (1-8): A Warwick, R Best (capt), W Herbst, L Stevenson, F vd Merwe, R Diack, C Henry, N Williams;

Replacements (16-23): R Herring, C Black, D Fitzpatrick, C Ross, R Wilson, M Heaney, S Olding, D Cave

Looks good - glad to see McCloskey get the nod at 12 - Trimble is a big loss..hopefully Bowe can find his A game at 14 and Gilroy looked sharp last week so.... other than that looks the best side available.

If Ulster get the win here I fancy us to top the group as I can see us winning the next 3 fixtures with Tigers to come to rav ..er kingspan in the new year.....

Tigers injured 15.

Multipola, Youngs, Cole
Deacon, Palling,
Croft, Slater, Salvin
Tressider, Bai
Allen, Hempetema
Loamano, Morris, Smith

If Ulster don't win this comfortably I'll be amazed. Your bench is miles stronger.

I'd be lying if I said I was complacent about playing at Welford Road guys. No matter who is playing or who isn't. But I am guardedly confident in that team. Just the lack of cover in the second row could be a big issue.

McCloskey vs Tuilagi should be a good match up.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Tigers injured 15.

Multipola, Youngs, Cole
Deacon, Palling,
Croft, Slater, Salvin
Tressider, Bai
Allen, Hempetema
Loamano, Morris, Smith

If Ulster don't win this comfortably I'll be amazed. Your bench is miles stronger.

Thats some injury list. On the injury front they're only matched by Leinster this season. Whats the common denominator there..

L,E,I,S,T,E and an R?

Leicester, injuries and all, are a tough ask to beat on their home turf no matter about their current form and that's the mindset the Ulster squad will have. The fact that Ulster has underperformed all season is worrying for me but on the plus side this starting XV was settled enough looking against the weegies and the bench is pretty damn strong looking.
If Ulster can step up another level perhaps we can gain a vital away win and set things up to beat Toulon in the next round. That'd be a nice start to proceedings and wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, then again two losses would be equally unsurprising

SUFTUM!!!!!

Now to get BT Sport working again on all TVs in the house

I would be very disappointed if we lose, simply because I really do believe we have it in us to win here. But we are not anywhere near the top of our game, though the same can obviously be said for Tigers.

The question for Ulster is just when this back line is going to click. Paddy Jackson having a disrupted start to the season with injury, rotation in the centres and the slightly under-par form of Payne and Bowe have contributed to a ragged looking back line at times so far this season. You feel we can bully teams in the Pro12 up front at times, but even an injury-hit and out of form Leicester team will be tough opponents there. We need to see the benefits of having a more settled back line across the last few games to win out here you feel.

Notch wrote:I would be very disappointed if we lose, simply because I really do believe we have it in us to win here. But we are not anywhere near the top of our game, though the same can obviously be said for Tigers.

The question for Ulster is just when this back line is going to click. Paddy Jackson having a disrupted start to the season with injury, rotation in the centres and the slightly under-par form of Payne and Bowe have contributed to a ragged looking back line at times so far this season. You feel we can bully teams in the Pro12 up front at times, but even an injury-hit and out of form Leicester team will be tough opponents there. We need to see the benefits of having a more settled back line across the last few games to win out here you feel.

Agreed Notch, I am just too damn scared of feeling confident

It always fills me with optimism to not see McComish's name anywhere on the teamsheet. Nevertheless I feel that in Olding we have a player destined to become world class and we've put him on the bench. I'd have liked to see 12 Olding, 13 Cave, 15 Payne with Ludik covering on the bench. Apart from that it's about as good as we can put out.

scrummy wrote:It always fills me with optimism to not see McComish's name anywhere on the teamsheet. Nevertheless I feel that in Olding we have a player destined to become world class and we've put him on the bench. I'd have liked to see 12 Olding, 13 Cave, 15 Payne with Ludik covering on the bench. Apart from that it's about as good as we can put out.

I think it would be unfair to leave McCloskey out, he is in sublime form. Olding will get his start shortly, and I would love to see him at 12 with McCloskey at 13 for a trial run. What a battle we have in the centres, it is strange to see Luke Marshall playing for the Ravens.

SUFTUM!!!!!!!

Nerves have gone, only alcohol can glue them together

Anyone else quite enjoying BTs pre-match pundity?

There are no excuses. Yes, the club has been going through a turbulent period but it's no excuse. Early days I know but I'm not convinced by the coaching setup. I hope Ancombe wasn't sacked just to allow a jobs for the boys appointment.

What on earth was going on with the lineout?

The game also many not have been lost had Gilroy not had a brain fart. I really hope the club addresses this idiocy rather than excusing it and defending player's actions.

The thing is Gilroy then went on to set up a magnificent try later on. He was probably our most dangerous back alongside Payne (when he moved to fullback). So although what he did was inexcusable, the rest of his game was very good.

clivemcl wrote:Anyone else quite enjoying BTs pre-match pundity?

Its not the same without Stuart Barnes and getting at least one name wrong per game

BT's rugby union coverage is far better than its Premier League equivalent and it helps that they get very good access.

Am really looking forward to going to my first game next Saturday. I was pleased to see Heaney make his European debut as I remember playing (cricket) against him when my school (Regent) got to the Schools Cup final in 2006. I take it he has given the cricket up then? How long has he been with Ulster?

clivemcl wrote:There are no excuses. Yes, the club has been going through a turbulent period but it's no excuse. Early days I know but I'm not convinced by the coaching setup. I hope Ancombe wasn't sacked just to allow a jobs for the boys appointment.

What on earth was going on with the lineout?

The game also many not have been lost had Gilroy not had a brain fart. I really hope the club addresses this idiocy rather than excusing it and defending player's actions.

clive from everything thats been said Doaks been having a hand in running the show for a while and one bad game shouldn't tarnish things.

Gilroy went in head down and that was stupid in the current climate, when you commit like that your taking a risk

The whole side was pretty poor for most of the first half, defence was slow in organising, holes were appearing and communication seemed to be lacking. The whole situation is made worse and Roman Poite and his say one thing do another attitude

Let's not bother mentioning the referee at all in relation to the loss tonight. Ulster only have themselves to blame after the first half performance.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The thing is Gilroy then went on to set up a magnificent try later on.  He was probably our most dangerous back alongside Payne (when he moved to fullback).  So although what he did was inexcusable, the rest of his game was very good.

Payne was good for 15mins at FB
He was also completely anonymous all match at 13 and his defence seems suspect.

Gilroy had a moment of stupidity as did Bowe, thats all it was - but the discipline needs tightening up

The biggest problem was the lineout. The scrum seemed ok but Poite seemed determined to let any scrum go if the ball got out.
Not to forget Marshall gave away 7 points

Front row - average
2nd row - decent
back row - poor
half backs - poor
centres - anonymus
Back three - good

Poite was happy enough with mccloskey when he was clearing out the man from the ruck, but when he stepped through to tackle the 9, only then he apparantly didn't come through the gate?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The thing is Gilroy then went on to set up a magnificent try later on.  He was probably our most dangerous back alongside Payne (when he moved to fullback).  So although what he did was inexcusable, the rest of his game was very good.

He isn't playing well enough (last week aside) and in fairness I think he needs the rocket. If Scholes were fit he would immediately drop out of the squad for me and I'm still taking Trimble as injured. Can Ludik cover wing? I don't know in honesty but I have a feeling we just need to persist with the backline (obviously with Ruan and paddy in tandem) and it will reap rewards in the new year. Might be too late from a Heineken perspective but that's life

I think it would be silly to drop Gilroy now, he looks very sharp this season and I think he is back to his finding his form a few years back.

I'm not saying Gilroy or Bowe played badly, but we've been on the wrong side of tackle in the air incidents far too many times now. I just want to know if the coaches are reacting appropriately. Any yellow in fact should potentially lead to discipline or stern words from the coaches.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think it would be silly to drop Gilroy now, he looks very sharp this season and I think he is back to his finding his form a few years back.

I think pre-Glasgow he was desperate

Think we had a 10 minute period where it looked like the players had all taken memory loss started with Bowe and his in air tackle, then Small Pauls run and pass while in his own 22 which cost us a try and then Gilroys idiocy after bowe had already done something similar. We have had way too many of them moments from the players this year, they need to be cut out and start playing a bit smarter

No need to talk like your season is over lads - you took a point at Welford Road, having played for the first half like you'd all just met in the car park before the game. Home games still to come and you're too good to make so many mistakes again in the same 80 minutes.

I am starting to understand why people feel so strongly about the Payne 13/15 thing. One thing I don't know is where Payne actually wants to play - I assume that it's 13 to fill the BOD slot with Ireland - but where do the Ulster coaches see him?

It's hard to know GC. If you had asked me two games ago I would have said move him to 15 immediately but he has shown glimpses and good patches in defence and attack. It's not like by comparison Cave has ever ripped it up against Leicester.

It would be a massive gamble now to change up the centres. We dropped paddy in the deep end last night and he had a poor game (certainly 1-9 had something to do with it aswell). I suppose I wouldn't mind seeing Olding come in to pair with McCloskey with Payne dropping back but it's a huge gamble.

I said when the teams came out I wouldn't mind if we did focus on the league (a little like Glasgow have done) this season and that pre-dates last night but I do want to turn Toulon over. I hope Ravenhill is bouncing next week

GC, those who were happy to see Anscombe ousted liked to paint a picture of Anscombe playing favourites with his kiwi crew. Now Payne still at 13 either suggests Doak/Kiss agreed, or in fact the IRFU are forcing our hand.

Do not be too disheartened about the lineout guys. In a team that has been average to poor so far in the AP, Kitchener and Gibson have been on fire in the lineout. When they have decided to compete they seem to win about 75% of the opposition ball. Kitch reads the throws so well, while Gibson is so light and lanky, Balmain can throw him high into the air. This in turn puts real pressure on the hooker which can lead to wobbly ones, knock ons etc.

George Carlin wrote:No need to talk like your season is over lads - you took a point at Welford Road, having played for the first half like you'd all just met in the car park before the game. Home games still to come and you're too good to make so many mistakes again in the same 80 minutes.

I am starting to understand why people feel so strongly about the Payne 13/15 thing. One thing I don't know is where Payne actually wants to play - I assume that it's 13 to fill the BOD slot with Ireland - but where do the Ulster coaches see him?

Payne desperately wants to play at 13. The Ireland coaches want to see him there. Where the Ulster coaches see him is something of a mystery.

Trying Payne at 13 has always been a logical choice because Ulster need to have the best player in each position they can get. However under Anscombe it was less logical because Ulster didn't have good options at 15, but since Ludik has arrived it is sensible for Doak to give Payne a run at Outside Centre.

Personally I'd prefer Payne at FB and play Olding at 13, but the current pairing has to be given a few more games to see if they improve further.

LondonTiger wrote:Do not be too disheartened about the lineout guys. In a team that has been average to poor so far in the AP, Kitchener and Gibson have been on fire in the lineout. When they have decided to compete they seem to win about 75% of the opposition ball. Kitch reads the throws so well, while Gibson is so light and lanky, Balmain can throw him high into the air. This in turn puts real pressure on the hooker which can lead to wobbly ones, knock ons etc.

Even from the game a WR last season Kitchener is mightily impressive. Considering who you are missing there is some depth there.

Standulstermen wrote:It's hard to know GC. If you had asked me two games ago I would have said move him to 15 immediately but he has shown glimpses and good patches in defence and attack. It's not like by comparison Cave has ever ripped it up against Leicester.

It would be a massive gamble now to change up the centres. We dropped paddy in the deep end last night and he had a poor game (certainly 1-9 had something to do with it aswell). I suppose I wouldn't mind seeing Olding come in to pair with McCloskey with Payne dropping back but it's a huge gamble.

I said when the teams came out I wouldn't mind if we did focus on the league (a  little like Glasgow have done) this season and that pre-dates last night but I do want to turn Toulon over. I hope Ravenhill is bouncing next week

Thanks Stand, Clive and Notch.

The position also seems to be complicated by Ludik being at least as good as most people hoped and probably better. He hasn't had much of a chance in the past few games to make an impact but the guy is clearly a class act, which creates an opportunity cost to dropping him (or benching him).

Personally I would drop Payne and try McCloskey at 13. But yeah, it's hard for the coaches because they need to rotate so much. I think Payne is marginally better than Ludik as a 15 but Ludik has played really well so far.

I think Ludik is a better 13 than Payne ironically.

The thing about Ludik is that he is our best defender and the most solid under the high ball. But Payne can break down defences on the counter-attack. Why not just go for a horses for courses selection at 15 there and try McCloskey and/or Marshall as alternatives to Cave?

Yep, as good as Ludik has been though he doesn't have the attacking verve of Payne. He is strong and able to break (and make) tackles better though.

I'd like to see the stats on line breaks and tackles of Ludik versus Payne this season. I've a feeling Ludik would come out the better.

Certainly Ludik is equally suited to 13 as 15 because he can make yards in tight spaces and break tackles.

Payne just doesn't seem to have enough time on the ball there to do his thing. The coaches (of Ulster or of Ireland?) are obviously gambling that he can adapt given time. But that remains to be seen.

Did you guys ever see this?: