Woods 2000 vs McIlroy 2014

First topic message reminder :

Rory McIlroy is the dominant player this year as Woods was back in 2000. If they both played against each other on this form over 72 holes on a course such as Pebble Beach which is like half links half parkland (I believe) and is prone to weather, who would come out on top?

TW driving accuracy PGA Tour 1996-2014 (not counting the fire hydrant incident).

1996 69%
1997 69%
1998 68%
1999 71%
2000 71%
2001 65%
2002 68%
2003 63%
2004 56%
2005 56%
2006 61%
2007 60%
2008 58%
2009 64%
2010 57%
2011 49%
2012 64%
2013 63%
2014 55%

Do you see a trend? His rank may always have been pretty average, but if you’re longer than most it of a less importance. After all 1 yard is 1 yard, both in 2000 and 2014, and one fairway hit in 2000 is still comparable to one fairway hit in 2014 (assuming they haven’t narrowed), regardless of the what he field does.

But otherwise I agree with your point - we should compare TW stats back then with Rory stats now.

MustPuttBetter wrote:

MustPuttBetter wrote:Is the person who voted McIlroy going to tell us why? I'd be interested to hear the reasoning

Obviously not

Oppsss - that would have been me, but I've been busy.

Firstly before you all jump on my case and call me biased or a Tiger hater let me say I thought it was an excellent question, and indeed made for a very close and somewhat subjective call in answering it.  

We were asked to compare Rory now with Tiger back then - difficult to do, especially given how long ago we are talking about.  However, I picked Rory Now on balance and for these reasons (in no particular order):

1. Tiger Then won a lot of times through the Tiger Intimidation factor - Rory Now doesn't fear Tiger. - score ONE to Rory (or -1 for Tiger Then if you want to be pedantic).

2. I think Rory Now off the tee is longer, more accurate and more consistent than Tiger Then (or Ever, or anyone ever for that matter).  Whilst it's only one aspect of the game, around Pebble Beach it's an important one  - score ONE to Rory

3. Irons and approach shots - Tiger Then had excellent distance control, Rory Now has a higher ball flight and given his driving would be hitting shorter irons which is great for landing on hard greens - the weather might play a factor, but there are enough variables without adding that in - HALF

4. Rory Now is putting as well at the really crunch times as Tiger Then was - HALF

5. Tiger Then scrambled really well. It's hard to be sure he was better than Rory Now because given 2 above, Rory Now has had to do a lot less of it, but subjectively score ONE for Tiger

6. Guts, will to win, focus - what ever you call it.  Rory Now has it, Tiger Then had it - HALF

So in my book 3 1/2 to 2 1/2 in favour of Rory Now.

The real key is if we were to say shift forward a year or 18 months, the probability is Tiger Then would kick Rory Now's butt all over the place - Tiger's consistently good form lasted for years and I'm not convinced (yet) that Rory's will.

Now feel free to commence calling me an idiot and quoting all kinds of "facts" and "stats"

Excellent analysis, Bob. I've now voted for Rory too - not because you persuaded me, just to annoy Mac.

McLaren wrote:Navy

It is a simple concept.  Try to determine how good the 2000 Tiger was and then do the same for summer 2014 Rory.

buzzzzzzzzzz, how can you fail to see assessing each player against the competition can help you make the comparison. No one is saying that is the only consideration but it will certainly help.

Oh, Jesus wept! Will you, just for once, go and read the premise again at the top of this thread? Then read it again just to be sure!

pedro

Yeah, I was looking at his rank cf. others before. Given the numbers you've just put up in terms of raw % of fairways hit, it presumably means the whole field is overall less accurate now than it was in the past.

Navy

buzzzzzzzz, are you sure you haven't misunderstood the premise? Because it seems like you are trying to answer something other than the winner of a golf match?

Well reasoned behind your opinion Bob. Good read behind the (currently) one vote.

Possible swayer for you to consider. I agree Rory now doesn't fear Tiger, but Tiger then wouldn't fear Rory one bit either they'd both be confident that they were the best in the world. I'd personally say that was a half.

Might indeed be a lot closer overall than my reasoning for a Tiger vote, but I'd also say Tigers putting then sneaks it. I personally always felt Tiger would hold everything and while Rory seems to be doing so I can't say that I watch him and actually think he will hold it beforehand (if that makes sense... it's certainly very subjective at best!).

I reckon the only thing everyone might agree on is that it would be one hell of a game, regardless of where it was played. Would be an amazing US Open playoff on the Monday for example.

Bob, your Rory vote is probably more thought through than most of our Tiger votes.
But for sure we need some more time to tell and dig deeper in stats.

In the mean time Rory got 3 extra votes!!

Interestingly, Rory NOW has a scoring average of 68.875 - pretty impressive I think we'll agree. By way of comparison, 9C's average over the entire 2000 season was a ridiculous 67.79.

Big thing to me is that 2000-era Woods "brought it" every time, winning was such an addiction to him. (Among other things.)

I seriously doubt if Rory will ever maintain that single-minded focus for more than a few months (and that would be a healthy thing), let alone a few years.

Doesn't make Tiger a better golfer but surely makes him a better winner.

One other contrast that hasn't really been discussed is that Rory's game is all about his tee shots, setting himself up for attacking the hole.
Tiger couldn't care less because he knew likely as not he'd find it, get it up around the green and make his birdie or par.

SmithersJones wrote:Excellent analysis, Bob. I've now voted for Rory too - not because you persuaded me, just to annoy Mac.

That was reason number 7 if I'd needed it

McLaren wrote:Navy

buzzzzzzzz, are you sure you haven't misunderstood the premise?  Because it seems like you are trying to answer something other than the winner of a golf match?

Mac, I'm trying to answer exactly that. I haven't misunderstood the premise but here's a question? Are you assuming it's 72 holes matchplay or strokeplay? I took it to be a strokeplay challenge in which case, I figure some actual factual data is going to weigh significantly more heavily than anything else.

Rory with missus was below Rory immediately post break up this year. Can he keep that intensity and golfocentric focus when his life inevitably moves on again and he gets involved with someone else and has (or wants) to spend less golfy golfy time?

Christ (or son of spaghetti monster if you prefer) I struggle getting out once a week!

Bob - Big Rory fan here, but I would not give him the putting edge over Tiger 2k. All opinions anyway!

Shotrock wrote:Bob - Big Rory fan here, but I would not give him the putting edge over Tiger 2k. All opinions anyway!

Understandable - I guess that's why this is a poll and not a statement of fact.  The only thing I am sure of - we'll never be sure because Tiger can never (by definition) be Tiger of 2000.

EDIT Oh - and I didn't give him the edge, I called putting a half.

Bob_the_Job wrote:

Shotrock wrote:Bob - Big Rory fan here, but I would not give him the putting edge over Tiger 2k. All opinions anyway!

Understandable - I guess that's why this is a poll and not a statement of fact.  The only thing I am sure of - we'll never be sure because Tiger can never (by definition) be Tiger of 2000.

He'd need a wig for a start.

super_realist wrote:

Bob_the_Job wrote:

Shotrock wrote:Bob - Big Rory fan here, but I would not give him the putting edge over Tiger 2k. All opinions anyway!

Understandable - I guess that's why this is a poll and not a statement of fact.  The only thing I am sure of - we'll never be sure because Tiger can never (by definition) be Tiger of 2000.

He'd need a wig for a start.

And a wife. Oh, harsh.

Bob_the_Job wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Bob_the_Job wrote:

Shotrock wrote:Bob - Big Rory fan here, but I would not give him the putting edge over Tiger 2k. All opinions anyway!

Understandable - I guess that's why this is a poll and not a statement of fact.  The only thing I am sure of - we'll never be sure because Tiger can never (by definition) be Tiger of 2000.

He'd need a wig for a start.

And a wife.  Oh, harsh.

and a golf game

We have a winner

Bob- I put it to you that you picked Rory because you are from Norn Iron as he is.

Rory has only been playing well for the last month! How quickly we forget the Rory who was known recently for running up a big score on friday's to knock himself out of contention.

Also...

1. Tiger Then won a lot of times through the Tiger Intimidation factor - Rory Now doesn't fear Tiger. - score ONE to Rory (or -1 for Tiger Then if you want to be pedantic).

I can't see how this makes sense. You're saying that Rory Now doesn't fear Tiger Now? But that's not the comparison, and it's impossible for Rory Now to fear Tiger 2000 unless the T-2000 hops in his time machine and travels to 2014. Surely a better comparison would be Tiger 2000's intimidation factor VS Rory 2014's, and I would give that one to Tiger.

What is this? Top Trumps?

What about the caddie? How big a part does/did that play? I for sure know that Steve Williams was quite straight forward and dominant and most likely helped give TW the edge.

This is a carry your own bag event!

The best caddy will be decided by a 19th century style duel by pistols. Hard to see past Stevie for this one.

Woods, no doubt at all.

Fair play Bob
As Pedro says, probably more thought out than most and you did at least rally some more votes for Rory.

Have to say, I would have issues with the Tiger fear point as some have said. Otherwise it's fair enough reasoning

navyblueshorts wrote:This is a carry your own bag event!

I'd love to see just one tournament a year when they have no caddy, no rules officials (except for keeping pace) no stewards looking for balls etc.

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:This is a carry your own bag event!

I'd love to see just one tournament a year when they have no caddy, no rules officials (except for keeping pace) no stewards looking for balls etc.

That for sure will get Bubba whining!

Thought you had Bubba winning Ped.

Then I actually read it properly...

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:This is a carry your own bag event!

I'd love to see just one tournament a year when they have no caddy, no rules officials (except for keeping pace) no stewards looking for balls etc.

No grandstands or galleries to stop the ball going into undergrowth.

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:This is a carry your own bag event!

I'd love to see just one tournament a year when they have no caddy, no rules officials (except for keeping pace) no stewards looking for balls etc.

Only a few balls (including a couple of top flites for provisional), one glove, half a sausage bap, a GPS with only 9 holes of power left, they've been drawn to go out with the club a55hole (if this hasn't ever happened to you, then maybe you are the club a55hole...) and only 5 minutes to warm up (ie hit a couple of putts on the green).

That'll learn 'em [sic]

I voter for Tiger (just) but if Rory were to win The Masters and/or US Open next season I think he would then have a descent edge on 2000 Tiger.  That would obviously have him as a potential winner of all majors and potentially holding all 4 at once.

FWIW however, I think Rory is the more complete player, even taking away his ridiculous length off the tee this season and the fact I don't feel his iron play is quite as sharp as it was when kitted with Titleist, if you were to compare each component of their game, Tiger (any year) I feel has very little edge, other than perhaps putting and scrambling (though Rory's putting of late has been ranked ~#1).