So Why Is The WTF Played Indoors?

Throughout the year players earn ranking points by playing on a variety of surfaces but nearly always outside. The eight players with the most ranking points get to compete in the showcase WTF were the best compete with the best. However the WTF are played indoors something that many of the top eight players will have very little experience off. In fact when it comes to the best eight players indoors there is not surprisingly a very different top eight. This is the top eight players indoors over the past year.

1) Djokovic
2) Delbonis
3) Nishikori
4) Cilic
5) Belluci
6) Goffin
7) Neilson
8) Federer

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Performance-Zone/Performance-Indoor-Current-List.aspx

Nadal is outside the top 8 at 9 and Wawrinka is languishing at 45 to name a couple of absences. The results are dependent on just a handful of results because indoor tennis is a relative rarity on the tour. Because tennis is seldom played indoors the players that top the ATP rankings do so because they are the best players outdoors. So why is the WTF played indoors?

It's held in the Northern Hemisphere in November.

So why is it held in the Northern Hemisphere in November? Tennis is generally played as an outdoor sport that follows suitable condition around the globe. Why make an exception of a tournament that gathers the best tennis players over the past year who have proved themselves playing outdoors?

Let me guess? Play it on clay in South America?

^ I wasn't talking about the surface particularly but it should be played in similar conditions to the majority of the tour. Perhaps outdoors in South America but many countries in the southern hemisphere would be suitable if for whatever reason it has to be played in November.

To be honest I think they couldn't take it to South America for lack of a large enough outdoor tennis venue. Outdoor in the southern hemisphere really narrows the options aside from taking it to perhaps Melbourne. The only other option would be perhaps Japan but again do they have a big enough outdoor venue for such a tournament?

hawkeye wrote:So why is it held in the Northern Hemisphere in November?

Well, it has to be November so we know who the top 8 players are at the end of the season.

As for Northern Hemisphere, who knows?

I suspect timezone plays a part. Europe sits nicely in the middle of the world's time zones, so nobody has to be up in the middle of the night to watch the flagship event.

Travelling would be another. Paris is the last event in the calendar. It's quite a big ask to get the players then to jet across to South America / Australia / whatever SH venue is chosen (Africa seems unlikely).

No reason why it must be NH though. I recall Djokovic saying last year that it would be good to take it elsewhere.

CaledonianCraig wrote:To be honest I think they couldn't take it to South America for lack of a large enough outdoor tennis venue. Outdoor in the southern hemisphere really narrows the options aside from taking it to perhaps Melbourne. The only other option would be perhaps Japan but again do they have a big enough outdoor venue for such a tournament?

They don't need a specific tennis venue. I think all the matches at the WTF in London are played on one specifically constructed court and the O2 is hardly a tennis venue. As far as countries there are lots of options.

I tell you what really bugs me, that tournaments are always played in the same countries. I wish we could get one of the big tournaments here in Ireland. Guaranteed to get big crowds in Dublin, good facilities for such an event and great location just an hour from London and less than 2 hours from Paris. They talk about wanting to make the game more global but yet they never seem to go anywhere new.

You can see pretty much any sporting event here in Ireland but never tennis. A real shame because I have no doubt it would be full capacity if the top players were in town. Nearly 2 million people in Dublin and an international airport with great access from Europe and America.

No wonder the game isn't growing here if we can never even host a tournament.

Location in relation to the last stretch of events, timing of the year.    

Every other surface has a Major and the WTF is considered by the players and the tour as the next most important tournament-- so they are giving the surface without a Major the next best thing.    

Your point makes little sense though as there is a stretch of tournaments indoor. If we were going to take a big tournament off of a surface because the top players have little experience on then I guess Wimbledon should be moved off of grass?   The top players play less on grass than they do on indoors.   Perhaps you should list the top 8 grass players and see if it differs from the top 8 players?   That would be ridiculous but that's what your whole premise is built off of.. surface with little play on it shouldn't have the big tournament.

It's the right thing to do by giving indoors a ultra elite tournament.   I know it hurts some peoples chances to win it, but then so does every other surface. there is going to always be a player who is less proficient on one surface over the others.

hawkeye wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:To be honest I think they couldn't take it to South America for lack of a large enough outdoor tennis venue. Outdoor in the southern hemisphere really narrows the options aside from taking it to perhaps Melbourne. The only other option would be perhaps Japan but again do they have a big enough outdoor venue for such a tournament?

They don't need a specific tennis venue. I think all the matches at the WTF in London are played on one specifically constructed court and the O2 is hardly a tennis venue. As far as countries there are lots of options.

No but the venue has to be vast in size say capacity of 10000+ and there is nowhere in South America like that.

TRuffin wrote:Location in relation to the last stretch of events, timing of the year.    

Every other surface has a Major and the WTF is considered by the players and the tour as the next most important tournament-- so they are giving the surface without a Major the next best thing.    

Your point makes little sense though as there is a stretch of tournaments indoor. If we were going to take a big tournament off of a surface because the top players have little experience on then I guess Wimbledon should be moved off of grass?   The top players play less on grass than they do on indoors.   Perhaps you should list the top 8 grass players and see if it differs from the top 8 players?   That would be ridiculous but that's what your whole premise is built off of.. surface with little play on it shouldn't have the big tournament.

It's the right thing to do by giving indoors a ultra elite tournament.   I know it hurts some peoples chances to win it, but then so does every other surface. there is going to always be a player who is less proficient on one surface over the others.

It's not surface but the fact that it's indoors. I don't see why the tour needs to be fair to a condition that's crazy. Because it's hardly ever used it should be given an important tournament? That makes no sense. Have you seen how few matches players play indoors? Check the link in the article. Its just a handful. Also the players who are best at indoor tennis rarely get a chance to play at the WTF. Whoever wins can't really claim to be the best indoor player because they won't have had necessarily the best indoor opposition.

Interesting points about grass but the WTF is a little different because it is a showcase with restricted entry. Grass has gone from being a default condition to one that is so unusual some players will be from countries that don't possess a single grass court. Makes it difficult for some to train specifically for grass court tournaments. There is perhaps an argument that grass should be retired from the main tour for this reason. But it's not one I personally would like to make because of all the tradition   Sadly I can imagine it happening in the future though. I think if grass was only used for the WTF then I would question it's use in the same way as I am the use of indoor courts.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

hawkeye wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:To be honest I think they couldn't take it to South America for lack of a large enough outdoor tennis venue. Outdoor in the southern hemisphere really narrows the options aside from taking it to perhaps Melbourne. The only other option would be perhaps Japan but again do they have a big enough outdoor venue for such a tournament?

They don't need a specific tennis venue. I think all the matches at the WTF in London are played on one specifically constructed court and the O2 is hardly a tennis venue. As far as countries there are lots of options.

No but the venue has to be vast in size say capacity of 10000+ and there is nowhere in South America like that.

I'm sure there is...

Well I am all ears. Acapulco is a dingy backwater not up to it so I await suggestions of vast-sized stadia in South America.

Surely they have arenas in South America (though maybe these are indoors). And they must have an Olympic tennis venue in Rio. And a Davis Cup venue in Argentina.

Anyway, I don't think it needs to be indoors, but just sometimes that suits the location. In Shanghai, there's a retractable roof so was it always indoors when there?

Perhaps as well it is indoors to offer up chances to indoor players. Who would begrudge them if that was the case? After all, every one of the four slams are outdoors.

CC So you think it's played indoors because South America is a dingy backwater and you want to allow indoor players to have chances? Sorry that's not swaying me one little bit

Well all you need to do is some research to unearth a 10000+ outdoor venue iin South America. I await that with baited breath.

And besides logistically it makes no sense. Tournaments leading up to the WTF are European-based so forcing them to fly across to South America and reaclimatise and put on a good show is asking too much.

Your list in the article, while reflecting the W-L record of players over a 12 month period, doesn't take account of the tournament level which is why Frederik Nielsen (or Neilson as you call him) is in there. But you know that, right?

I'm pretty sure the 8 players that amassed the most points from all tournaments in the year (if fit) would be able to provide a pretty decent standard of tennis indoors.

It hasn't always been indoors, but has only been outdoors 3 years since 1970. So mainly there is a 40+ year old tradition of it being played indoors.
Partly it's because it's been played in the Northern hemisphere in winter, when an indoor venue is usually most suitable.
Partly it is money of course - if an outdoor venue were willing to pay enough, it would probably get it.
It is how it is - it is very successful, very popular with the fans and TV companies and there are very few complaints, so there's not much reason to change.

Biggest stadia in South America is:-

Buenos Aires Lawn Tennis Club 6250 capacity

Acapulco 6000 capacity

So you see both of them are not big enough to hold such an event.

YvonneT wrote:Your list in the article, while reflecting the W-L record of players over a 12 month period, doesn't take account of the tournament level which is why Frederik Nielsen (or Neilson as you call him) is in there. But you know that, right?

I'm pretty sure the 8 players that amassed the most points from all tournaments in the year (if fit) would be able to provide a pretty decent standard of tennis indoors.

Yes I know that but that's the problem when there are so few tournaments played indoors. Yes the top 8 players should provide a decent level of tennis but it's like providing a quality artist with the wrong tools. They would produce something nice but perhaps not as nice as they would produce using the correct tools. So why do it?

I don't really know much about the history of this event but very odd if it's only been played outdoors three times. IMO it would be a great improvement if it was played outdoors.

So you've got a 20,000 seater, state of the art indoor facility in London which can be sold out every session to people paying a high ticket price. Or you've got various much smaller outdoor arenas in South America/else where in the SH which will barely fill half way for most sessions to people who won't pay nearly as much for tickets?

It doesn't make smart business sense to change this arrangement, even to make things 'fair' or whatever reason it actually was you felt there should be change.

This is supposed to be a glamourous, exciting, end of year tennis tournament/entertainment event. They hold it in the World's foremost indoor entertainment venue - why would they lost out on zillions of extra revenue just to change things for the rather irrelevant reason that is playing surface/conditions. In the past, pandering to Nadal has made important business sense to tennis tournaments, this is one tournament where it doesn't make any business sense - so they don't do it.

hawkeye wrote:

YvonneT wrote:Your list in the article, while reflecting the W-L record of players over a 12 month period, doesn't take account of the tournament level which is why Frederik Nielsen (or Neilson as you call him) is in there. But you know that, right?

I'm pretty sure the 8 players that amassed the most points from all tournaments in the year (if fit) would be able to provide a pretty decent standard of tennis indoors.

Yes I know that but that's the problem when there are so few tournaments played indoors. Yes the top 8 players should provide a decent level of tennis but it's like providing a quality artist with the wrong tools. They would produce something nice but perhaps not as nice as they would produce using the correct tools. So why do it?

I don't really know much about the history of this event but very odd if it's only been played outdoors three times. IMO it would be a great improvement if it was played outdoors.

There is plenty of argument that indoor tennis on a court like the WTF is actually the best place to showcase the top players skills. It takes out the randomness of elements, and is quite a neutral surface that all top players should be well accustomed too.  I've heard many an expert say that this event or atmosphere is where a players talent can shine through.    You only have to look at the list of winners and finalists from each year-- other than an odd winner every once in awhile- it's a list of the Goats.  Seems like they are able to produce quite well on the court.   Federer has been and now Djokovic the best indoor players in the world, Murrays been excellent indoors for years. Nadal has won a couple indoors tournament. no matter what your list says the top players pretty much excel there as they do anywhere else.  

We all know why YOU don't like it being indoors, but the fact is- indoors is a part of the season after the US Open, it's deserves an elite tournament, and the arena that the WTF is played on produces excellent tennis.

Mardy Fish admits, “Any time you have different variables — cool and hot conditions, sun or wind — it can sometimes be an equaliser. But a lot of the time, when the conditions are perfect, the better player wins more often than not.”

Richard Gasquet says “Hitting the ball cleanly is essential to playing well indoors. Of course, it’s faster than outdoors and not windy, so everybody can play better indoors.''

Maybe that's why? The best players playing on the surface that is most likely going to determine the best of the best?

This was expected on the day Nadal slayer Davydenko retired now HE has to live the entire life with this, I can already visualize how hard it is.

On the merit of the topic, which is a great question WTF should not be played on one surface so should have been FO, AO, Wimbledon and for that sake every other tournaments played on same surface.

The best idea to please all players fans would be to play each and every tournament on each and every surface possible on the same time, so for instance

1]FO have to be played on the same time on red clay, blue clay, indoor hard, outdoor hard and grass, so typically 5 tournaments at the same time under one banner, the 5 winners will then play each other in a round robin match of 5 sets [each set played on the unique surface], and then the 2 best players compete on the finals in the same format.

IF by chance the tournament gets over on the same year, then we can think of playing the Wimbledon straight away in similar manner and like wise USO and AO.

If still a particular player is unsuccessful then we can have the whole process from the scratch straight off again.

CAS wrote:Mardy Fish admits, “Any time you have different variables — cool and hot conditions, sun or wind — it can sometimes be an equaliser. But a lot of the time, when the conditions are perfect, the better player wins more often than not.”

Richard Gasquet says “Hitting the ball cleanly is essential to playing well indoors. Of course, it’s faster than outdoors and not windy, so everybody can play better indoors.''

Maybe that's why? The best players playing on the surface that is most likely going to determine the best of the best?

sshhh CAS- don't let what the real players and people that understand tennis say get in the way of fan dreams!

Keep it clean everyone, make sure we stick to topic.

CAS wrote:Mardy Fish admits, “Any time you have different variables — cool and hot conditions, sun or wind — it can sometimes be an equaliser. But a lot of the time, when the conditions are perfect, the better player wins more often than not.”

Richard Gasquet says “Hitting the ball cleanly is essential to playing well indoors. Of course, it’s faster than outdoors and not windy, so everybody can play better indoors.''

Maybe that's why? The best players playing on the surface that is most likely going to determine the best of the best?

I just read the lines in ATP website as well, I hope Mardy's comments doesn't bring him some dis likes.

Bloody plate tectonics and the Earth's axial tilt. How dare they affect the location of the continental crust and provide us with a climate beset with seasons.

That's your problem HE. I'm assuming your are not proposing any sporting event to be held in the tropics for obvious reasons. Especially an outdoor game. So to stick it in the southern hemisphere it might help if there was a bit more land available?

CAS wrote:Mardy Fish admits, “Any time you have different variables — cool and hot conditions, sun or wind — it can sometimes be an equaliser. But a lot of the time, when the conditions are perfect, the better player wins more often than not.”

Richard Gasquet says “Hitting the ball cleanly is essential to playing well indoors. Of course, it’s faster than outdoors and not windy, so everybody can play better indoors.''

Maybe that's why? The best players playing on the surface that is most likely going to determine the best of the best?

The phrasing of that made me smile Mardy Fish "admits" as if it was something everyone was trying to keep secret. It's just his opinion and I'm not sure what he means by best. There will be players better suited to playing indoors but unless they can play well outdoors they won't be entering the WTF. The only way to enter this particular tournament is to be one of the best players outdoors. I would make the same point if it was the other way round. Imagine if tournaments were played indoors throughout the year and the WTF were played outdoors. The players that qualified wouldn't play their best because they were used to playing indoors. It just makes more sense to play a final (because that's what the WTF is known as) under the same conditions as the rest of the competition (ie the "race" to the WTF) The idea that there is nowhere suitable in the whole world to hold an eight player outdoor tennis tournament is to be honest laughable.

Someone mentioned Davydenko. Sad that he's retired although I must admit I thought he already had. He was a great player, took the ball early, was very aggressive off the ground, just didn't miss and was so good at changing the direction of the ball. I think Djokovic plays a lot like him but Djokovic benefits from having a better serve. Ha ha maybe retirement had nothing to do with spending more time with his wife and child he just wanted to preserve his H2H with Nadal

The WTF is an incredibly successful event, and the 02 has proven over these past few years to be a near-perfect venue in terms of attendance numbers, TV audience, and ease of access for both players & spectators from around the world.  The eight best players on the tour, all there on pure merit, the creme de la creme, with no hint of a cakewalk draw or early round wild cards.

Above all, people clearly enjoy watching indoor tennis - not least the contrast it offers versus outdoor venues which already dominate in most other major events on the calendar.

It's all too good to be true.

So ....... let's change it

Sorry but whatever you think of the present venue it's a temporary one. Most of the things you list can be found in outdoor venues too. People appear to enjoy watching outdoor tennis because most tennis is outdoors.

Indeed it is only temporary.

I understand Manacor on the island of Mallorca is a strong candidate to host the event in future years. Some great tapas bars in the vicinity, and the weather can be very sunny, even in November.

hawkeye wrote:Sorry but whatever you think of the present venue it's a temporary one. Most of the things you list can be found in outdoor venues too. People appear to enjoy watching outdoor tennis because most tennis is outdoors.

It also is rated Category 'A' (I think is what they call in) meaning it ticks all the boxes for what is required for a large stadia hence why it has the capability to attract such massive events. Don't get me wrong I am not saying it should be held there for ever more and if another similar-sized stadia and locale can be found then rotate it. South America is off the menu until they can come up with adequate facilities and somehow can eliminate the travel element between it and Europe. Perhaps the space plane being muted??

lags72 wrote:Indeed it is only temporary.

I understand Manacor on the island of Mallorca is a strong candidate to host the event in future years. Some great tapas bars in the vicinity, and the weather can be very sunny, even in November.

Ha ha! lags. That would be funny. Can you imagine certain tennis fans would have kittens at the thought of Nadal having the WTF in his home country. Maybe you included? But maybe you should prepare yourselves. After all doesn't Madrid with it's magic box have the perfect venue to put in a bid. Also with a retractable roof at least outdoor play would be a possibility even in November. Whatever happens a bid is likely to come from a country that likes tennis and therefore will likely have top players who will benefit. So maybe you should prepare yourself

CC stop dissing South America. Obviously you wouldn't attend but I'm sure they could potentially be great hosts. If London can be awarded category A status for putting up a temporary court in the O2 I'm pretty sure there are many cities throughout the world that could do so to. Don't be so narrow minded.

Think some ATP guy said a few days ago, they will look into will they extend the O2 at current venue or move somewhere else.

And O2 is fine, it should stay there for next 15y, and anyway UK has only the W as a big tournament, so O2 is a good finish to the Tennis year.

P.S: CC, what happened, you moved to London? Did Scotland kick you out?

hawkeye wrote:


CC stop dissing South America. Obviously you wouldn't attend but I'm sure they could potentially be great hosts. If London can be awarded category A status for putting up a temporary court in the O2 I'm pretty sure there are many cities throughout the world that could do so to. Don't be so narrow minded.

Dissing? If you are taking offence to 'dingy backwater' for Acapulco as that was merely a description to show it is nowhere near equipped to hold the WTF with a stadium capacity of just 6,000 (heck even Eastbourne can top that) and only Buenos Aires is fractionally bigger at 6250 capacity so where is this 10000+ stadia necessary for a tournament like the WTF in South America and when is that space plane coming to speed up the travel en masse from Europe for the competing players?[/quote]

Jahu wrote:

P.S: CC, what happened, you moved to London? Did Scotland kick you out?  

I moved down to do a job that a local wasn't up to. Will see how long it will be for. Thanks for the concern.

Good luck

CC - please do be more careful with your quote captions ! (your 7.38am post)

You've somehow managed to attribute to me comments that were actually made by hawkeye. I know that was not your intention, but I just need to set the record straight. If I AM going to be mixed up with another poster, then I think you would guess that HE would not be my first choice ......  

hawkeye : as a tennis fan, a keen supporter of the O2 as host of the WTF (and with my flights already booked to attend AO 2015 once again in Melbourne), I assure you that I would not be "having kittens" at the thought of Nadal having the WTF in his home country.  I can however fully understand your own enthusiasm for the idea, given Rafa's notable lack of success at one of the calendar's most prestigious events, and where the roll of honour includes virtually all of the game's greats, both past & present.

lags72 wrote:CC - please do be more careful with your quote captions ! (your 7.38am post)

You've somehow managed to attribute to me comments that were actually made by hawkeye. I know that was not your intention, but I just need to set the record straight. If I AM going to be mixed up with another poster, then I think you would guess that HE would not be my first choice ......  

hawkeye : as a tennis fan, a keen supporter of the O2 as host of the WTF (and with my flights already booked to attend AO 2015 once again in Melbourne), I assure you that I would not be "having kittens" at the thought of Nadal having the WTF in his home country.  I can however fully understand your own enthusiasm for the idea, given Rafa's notable lack of success at one of the calendar's most prestigious events, and where the roll of honour includes virtually all of the game's greats, both past & present.

Sincerest apologies lags. I will look to correct it.

EDIT: My shameful error has been corrected.

Presumably if it stayed at the O2 or another indoor arena for another, say, 10 years, then moved to a permanent (or changing) outdoor location, hawkeye would then get her wish and be very happy from 2024 onwards. Something for her to look forward to perhaps.
Until then some tennis fans will just have to have kittens (again) if they announce that it will continue indoors. They might even get so upset they post a thread on it here.

Many thanks CC.

lags72 wrote:Many thanks CC.

Well I just couldn't leave it like that.

hawkeye wrote:The results are dependent on just a handful of results because indoor tennis is a relative rarity on the tour. Because tennis is seldom played indoors the players that top the ATP rankings do so because they are the best players outdoors. So why is the WTF played indoors?

When I read the OP, the first comment that sprung to my mind with the quote above was: why is Wimbledon played on grass? Which is similar but funnier than just replying "because" to Hawkeye's question. After all, most tournaments are Hard and Clay (as we've seen in that thread about surface disparity), and if we do a Top 8 on Grass, it will be very different from the actual Top 8... and grass is even more of a rarity on tour.

Of course, it's different, as Wimby is not a tournament to showcase the Top 8 only (although.. 6 different finalists in 10 years). We can argue that Wimbledon has always been played outdoors on grass too. But hasn't the WTF (and precedors) been always played on hard indoor?

In conclusion, to give a more real answer, it's played on indoor hard, because it's placed at the end of the indoor hard season. Had the WTF been the first tournament of the year, it would've been played on Outdoor hard in Jo'burg, for example.

I like having the WTF in London as I get to watch it... but at the same time as a Nadal fan his success his more important to me so it should immediately be moved to some South American city (maybe the host of one of the gazillion chamber pot tournaments he entered in early 2013). That way Henman Bill will get to watch it; and he's a Federer fan- so really this way satisfies both Federer and Nadal fans.

Anyway on a more serious note, if it stays in the northern hemisphere it should be played indoors- however if the next location is in the southern hemisphere outdoors would be fine. I'm not sure how long it is contracted to the o2, but it can't always stay there- and given we'd have the WTF played in Shanghai a few years ago- South America wouldn't be a bad location.
It would be important though to leave a gap after Paris Masters, perhaps a week, as they players get adjusted to the time zone.

Lo and behold, some relevant news
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/29662454
In short Kermode isnt sure about its future at the O2 and there are strong bids elsewhere.

I think fast clay or slow hard for WTF, so like an average surface of sorts.

Players like Ferrer qualify in the top 8, but are just there to make up the numbers because of surface. He cannot beat Federer on that surface.

He cannot beat Feds on any surface, as of yet.