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Federer's Injury: The Logical Fallacy

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Post by Henman Bill Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 19:39

I don't know whether Federer really could or should have played in the final. I had a few suspicions but I suppose we have to give him the benefit of the doubt with his record of so few retirements and withdrawals in his whole career and no solid evidence to the contrary. Likewise, I don't know how fit he is going to be for the final of the Davis Cup. I have no idea.

But what really annoys me is people saying that if he plays in the DC final that will show that his withdrawal was fake/not really necessary, on the grounds that if he really is injured, he surely can't be fit to play two 5 sets matches a week later. I have seen this argument a few times in the last 24 hours or so from a few people who should know better.

Of course it's quite possible that he was completely unfit to play, literally would have been painful to play out a 6-0 6-1 defeat for the crowd, and then be fully fit less than a week later. OF COURSE that's quite possible. It's blatantly wrong to suggest otherwise. There is a mountain of evidence about tennis recovery time, and injuries in general, that suggest that it is quite possible to be in poor condition one day and fine the next. Recovery from physical exercise within a week is HUGELY different to recovery within a day. It is also documented fact that there are injuries and pains that can heal in less than a week.

A few weeks ago I spent 15 hours walking and running in the mountains. The day after, I could barely walk. I mean, seriously, I was hobbling around the house and I certainly wouldn't have gone out for say a few hundred yards walk. 3 days later and I was at 99% fitness. Once, I was completely paralyzed in a bizarre incident and felt 100% the next day. I have been severely ill like in unbelievable pain and 1-2 days later at 100% again. When I trained for a marathon, I was running like 20 miles every Sunday at one stage. After running 20 miles the next day I was hobbling around with aches and pains all over the shop in various places and couldn't have run a mile. But a week later and I can easily run 20 miles again.

I don't care if Federer this week wins both matches 20-18 in the 5th with 100-shot rallies, then does 20 victory laps of the court, then runs 5 miles to a Parisian nightclub, then break dances on his back all night, even if he does, that will not be a strong or conclusive argument in favour of the fact that his injury at the WTF argument was false. It would be at best a small supporting argument and certainly not prove anything.

Now if he pulls out of the Davis Cup, you could use that as the reverse argument that "aha, he is injured after all then". That makes relatively more sense, since injuries are more likely to heal/improve over time than get worse, assuming you are resting. Although it would still not be conclusive.

That is all.

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Post by LuvSports! Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 19:46

clap

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Post by It Must Be Love Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 19:58

Yes this article is spot on, in reality we don't know the extent to the injury. All we can do is wait for the Davis Cup to see how it has progressed, and maybe then he'll say more in terms of exact details.

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Post by It Must Be Love Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 20:02

Henman Bill wrote:I don't care if Federer this week wins both matches 20-18 in the 5th with 100-shot rallies, then does 20 victory laps of the court, then runs 5 miles to a Parisian nightclub, then break dances on his back all night, even if he does, that will not be a strong or conclusive argument in favour of the fact that his injury at the WTF argument was false. It would be at best a small supporting argument and certainly not prove anything.
Actually there are parts of this paragraph I disagree with.
If he was injured this week (which I think he was) I think it's unlikely he'd take risks by break dancing on his back and does 20 victory laps, after the match was over.
In terms of the match itself, yes he'll give it everything of course, but I don't think he'd take risks with his back after the match was over (if he did have a back injury).

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Post by Guest Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 20:27

I am all about calling a spade a spade.

I have played football/tennis/cricket over 20 odd years in some pain or discomfort. I have played with torn muscles, broken bones and any injury imaginable. I even played a 120 minute football match a day after surgery.

The point I am making is that Federer has played with niggles like anyone else. The smart money would tell me that after the Stan match he had no chance in making the final. For me the withdrawal should have happened a couple of hours afterwards. My beef is this. Any other player would've been slaughtered if they said "At his best level I can't compete" I don't give a crap if his name is Federer or his record with withdrawals or whatever. He ducked out. It's that simple. I am not going to hold it against him or anything. Just that little criticism and move on.

Like I said before given his age and the benefit of hindsight, maybe skipping the WTF would've been in his best interests for the DC. I want to see him win it.

Federer is an exceptional athlete and all he has done here is shown a human side. The timing and everything was wrong and you can't not expect not to take some flack.

You can't have the glory all the time.

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Post by temporary21 Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 20:53

I would say he maybe should have declared unfit for the final a bit sooner, but Roger doesnt play games, he must have been pretty unfit

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 21:03

legendkillarV2 wrote:I am all about calling a spade a spade.

I have played football/tennis/cricket over 20 odd years in some pain or discomfort. I have played with torn muscles, broken bones and any injury imaginable. I even played a 120 minute football match a day after surgery.

The point I am making is that Federer has played with niggles like anyone else. The smart money would tell me that after the Stan match he had no chance in making the final. For me the withdrawal should have happened a couple of hours afterwards. My beef is this. Any other player would've been slaughtered if they said "At his best level I can't compete" I don't give a crap if his name is Federer or his record with withdrawals or whatever. He ducked out. It's that simple. I am not going to hold it against him or anything. Just that little criticism and move on.

Like I said before given his age and the benefit of hindsight, maybe skipping the WTF would've been in his best interests for the DC. I want to see him win it.

Federer is an exceptional athlete and all he has done here is shown a human side. The timing and everything was wrong and you can't not expect not to take some flack.

You can't have the glory all the time.

It wont come as any surprise that I happen to agree with you LK. Like you I make that criticism because I would expect it said of Nadal, Djokovic or whomever .. He surely must have realised that his motives, and decision would be scrutinized and commented on   At this stage in his career I feel it has left a bad taste..I have every empathy with Stan and I would imagine he felt gutted especially as his was the semi-final..it put the cap on what was an already abysmal WTF. But as you say.. move on
What happens at the DC remains to be seen

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Post by Guest Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 21:11

My issue HN is the timing. There is no doubt that match with Stan was brutal. Maybe his way of paraphrasing wasn't the best either. Saying that the other guy's level is higher than yours does scream a little bit of cowardice.

Like I say it's probably the one foot wrong he has put in his career. He will get criticised for it.

Nothing major. Everyone makes mistakes.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 21:19

I agree with that too..It did sound more like he wasn't prepared to put himself through another grueling match with Novak.. knowing the probability that he would lose rather than the emphasis being placed on his back injury..But he opened his mouth and put both feet in. Still leaves a question mark over the argument.. but thats on a different thread so Ill say no more.

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Post by Guest Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 21:25

As this thread has the title 'Logic'

If I was Federer given the back troubles, age factor and recovery inbetween matches, if I was chasing a title I never won then I would've skipped the one event I had won countless times before. The DC Final I feel is a one shot opportunity for him. That would've been the logical thing to do.

He has been spot in terms of managing his season over his career.

Even with years experience on your side, you can still slip up.

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Post by Silver Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 22:29

Good article, HB.


Last edited by Silver on Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 22:38; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Not worth it)

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Post by CAS Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 23:34

He has played matches before he arguably shouldn't have played, Indian Wells against Rafa it was strongly rumoured he was under a lot of pressure to play that match.

He's also said he couldnt play at "any level" I do think he phrased it to badly in the original presentation because he was trying to emphasise how good Novak is and give him credit for an awkward victory for him.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Media/Video-Landing/*/Tennis/Media/Videos/Uploaded/2014/11/16/London-Finale-2014-Final-Interview-Federer.aspx

He maybe learnt his lesson last year that he shouldn't be playing if he is feeling pain, he mentions his age is an issue and perhaps he's thinking about the future and long term goals. He mentions he thinks its a back spasm so if thats the case I can't see why it would be so farfetched he can compete a week later.

I feel he would have played had there been an extra days recovery, if you think back to Wimbledon 2012, how bad he was against Malisse then he ended up winning the tournament it does show its something he knows how to sort out the issue if he has the time to recover.

That being said, I was as gob sacked as anyone that of all people to be making the highest profile walkover I have ever seen it was Federer.

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Post by laverfan Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 1:31

The Tennis calendar must take its fair share of blame, partly because players wanted a longer break during Xmas/New Year.

@HB... Federer has never retired, has given three W/Os in his entire career. He has stated numerous times that if you pick up racquets and show up on the court, you are fit to play. He withdrew because he wanted to avoid a farce. Djokovic won the trophy either way, playing an exhibition.

The repeated justification and scrutiny of this specific incident has left a real bad taste in my mouth, personally. Neither side has made a case, except speculation and fans have dug back into the trenches, that they came out of in the past, or have been trying to.

@LK... The IW BH winner made the Nadal match an exercise in futility. Federer should have withdrawn from that as well. His 2013 was abysmal and there is no need to repeat the same mistake in 2015. He could have easily asked for his match to be scheduled as the first SF and you would have seen the impact on the night session. If he withdraws for any number of reasons, it is his prerogative and he has a right to, no matter how disappointed the fans are. Recall Murray's comment about working Federer so hard that he could not play Djokovic. Wink

T2 commented (or someone else did) that O2 was freezing cold.

Of all the folks on this thread, who were physically present for the Federer-Wawrinka match?

Anecdotal evidence has no bearing on reality, either. Player X withdrawing being compared to player Y is also very subjective.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 2:14

LF I think this whole sorry affair has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth not least of all Stan Warwrinka.  Im sure you cannot be naive enough to suggest that an incident such as this, which is still rumbling on in the news (see the Daily Telegraph front page tomorrow) which, whether it was about Federer or any of the top players, was not going to go without comment on 606v2.  I have had my say on the matter, which I consider more of a criticism and probably less than I would have expected to see had it concerned, Nadal, Djoko or Murray.
I have never seen Federer fans "dig themselves back into the trenches' that frankly is quite absurd. Maybe it would not hurt Federer to put such speculation to rest. Speculation which I might add has made the Swiss press also it seems. Im sure his fans and others would appreciate it.

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Post by laverfan Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 2:54

There are two separate incidents, which IMO are being commingled.

The first is, Wawrinka-Mourier-? discussion (see CAS's article - https://www.606v2.com/t56497-the-plot-thickens-cry-baby) during the match.

The second is, Federer's withdrawal from the WTF Final.

Is there evidence (without reasonable doubt) to link these two? Unless, there is, I would consider these separate.

Wawrinka can still ask for a disciplinary hearing and Mourier is required to file his report. Using the video evidence from CAS's post, if Mirka was involved in loud cheering when Federer was serving it is more a distraction for the server, less so for the receiver, is it not?

Is Federer's withdrawal related to Federer-Wawrinka discussion post-match related to the first incident? Unless there is reasonable evidence to point to such a conclusion, it is in the realm of speculation.

Henman Bill wrote:Now if he pulls out of the Davis Cup, you could use that as the reverse argument that "aha, he is injured after all then". That makes relatively more sense, since injuries are more likely to heal/improve over time than get worse, assuming you are resting. Although it would still not be conclusive.

banbrotam wrote:Love to know how he'll be fit enough to play two or three times in three days, less than a week after not been able to play in the O2 final Whistle

He was fit in the Malisse match after the trainer was called in, but was less so against Nadal @IW, so recovery varies, as HB suggests. Four days and there will be an answer one way or the other.

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Post by coolpixel Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 4:19

I play tennis badminton at a reasonably high level and also suffer from an Achilles heel problem. After I play I can barely walk. Yet the next day I can play again. Anyway this has continued ad nauseum now. Fans take a risk when buying a ticket since there is no guarantee they will see their fave players. Sometimes the risk pays sometimes it doesn't. Re the Mirka Stan issue, this is a matter between the three of them, unless Stan wants to escalate it. Assuming there IS a matter to be resolved.


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Post by Guest Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 6:45

Oh I agree LF. He shouldn't have taken to the court. Having not just learnt from IW, but other matches in the past too. I commend him for sticking it out on court with Wawrinka, but he must've known that to be fully fit and firing in less than 24 hours was going to be an impossible task.

I agree that the scheduling has not helped either. That needs looking at too.

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Post by greengoblin Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 17:49

Compare his movement to now and 2006 and you will be astonished. The problem with Federer now is that he's 'terminally injured' and he is going to be easily beaten almost everytime he plays Djokovic or Nadal on a non grass court. Maybe he can't accept this. If he decides not to play because he can't compete (which he seems to have done) then he should retire. It's certainly poor judgement on his part to think this is a valid reason not to play.

The fact that he could have been no1 is astonishing and demonstrates the strength of his serve and the weakness of this era.

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Post by kingraf Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 17:53

There's no such thing as a weak era. All eras are equilateral.
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Post by greengoblin Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 17:56

But look how much worse Federer is nowadays, and yet still nearly finishing the year at no 1

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Post by kingraf Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 18:02

It's an optical illusion
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Post by Josiah Maiestas Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 19:32

Not cowardice at all the WTF wasn't worth gambling this year with his country hoping to celebrate a DC victory. Don't be a drama queen LK OK
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Post by Guest Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 19:38

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Not cowardice at all the WTF wasn't worth gambling this year with his country hoping to celebrate a DC victory. Don't be a drama queen LK OK

It was cowardice.

That's not dramatic you fool! Laugh

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Post by biugo Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 22:58

About the argument that Federer should have skipped WTF or retired from the tournament earlier: he was actually feeling alright the whole tournament (maybe with niggles, just like all players).
He stated that with hindsight he'd been happier if Stan finished it at 5-4, and then there would not be any kind of talk around the back.
Then, it's up to you t interpret it as him being hurt already, and that if he lost he would not have mentionned it anyway, or is it because the back strain arrived in the later games of the match, after he saved those match points. I'd pick the seecond choice.
To me it's similar to the argument rising up when Nadal leaves injured (during, or after a tournament): it's doesn't in anyway that he was injured entering the tournament/match. These back/hip/knee/wrist issues can come back unannounced.
Wawrinka played a 100% fit Federer, and Federer hurt himself at the end of the match (niggles being part of 100%).
Of course Federer would not say immediately after the game "I'm not so fit, I will miss the match tomorrow" when such pains and niggles could vanish the morning after... It's a WTF final, even with 6 titles he'll try to get it!

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Post by touch(A)parabola Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 20:12

Hello again,
For some time I had no need to comment since I was certain in Novak’s dominance that would last at least the next few more years (hopefully with the luck of escaping some unexpected health/family problems). Im sure many of you would not agree, but this is what I believe in.

However, I have need to express my opinion of how very unethical was from Federer to do what he had done on the final day of London, while he still continues to carry on with his image of a nice, gracious guy. His style of tennis might be graceful, but his character is very questionable as they are all those Nike awards given to him for his fair play (and many of us believed not deserved).

Federer's reaction last weekend defeated the whole purpose, not only of tennis, but of sport in general. Of course even Nole gives up his matches, Nadal complains of injury… but they either pulled out from their matches much in advance with a specific reason or faced the opponent and the scores were recorded. (For example, Nole was also rushing to his final DC in 2010, but before that he put himself in front of Federer in London and takes a beating. Fair enough. Nadal just managed to finish his match against Borna Coric despite of his appendix problem.) Moreover, it’s beyond my comprehension that in a final of a world masters one professional can say that he/she is not 100% ready to compete fearing the loss and to say it an hour before the match. The spirit of the sport is that you play as much as you can, but you have to have guts and bravery to respectfully appear in front of the audience, your opponent and to accept a defeat. You try to learn from your mistakes, you train better, you move on… but you have to have a character to be able to loose. If he can humiliate others, why he cannot face his own potential humiliation as well?

Would it be ok with you if in every major final a player who played a long semifinal comes an hour before the match and tells that he is not willing to play? Could you imagine if everyone (except Nole) refuses to play against Federer if they are not 100% ready? On the other hand, we have Nishikori who is a samurai warrior and after his exhausting match against Nole, he still faced Cilic although everyone knew that in his condition Nishikori is doomed to loose. But then, Nishikori has his tradition and his values.

Is Federer injured? No.
Was he fearing the potential injury in the final? Maybe yes, but in that case he should have started playing the final and as soon as the result is 3:0 he can call it quit.

Do Nole and Andy curse? Yes, but they are called naughty.
Were Nole’s parents too much sometimes? Maybe yes, but now we have Mirka doing the same.
Was the audience in London while clapping enthusiastically after Nole’s double fault showing high-class and knowledge of tennis ethics? Maybe not, but then we in Belgrade do the same during the DC.
Can a sportsperson who cowardly does not show up on the final match keep a title of a gentleman and keep the reputation of a smooth and sincere person? No.
…Or maybe he is no more exception in avoiding injuries and he is in this age where he is loosing this “effortless style”? Oh, it all “depends on him” if he decide to win or show up for a DC final….

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Post by greengoblin Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 21:02

touch(A)parabola wrote:Hello again,
For some time I had no need to comment since I was certain in Novak’s dominance that would last at least the next few more years (hopefully with the luck of escaping some unexpected health/family problems). Im sure many of you would not agree, but this is what I believe in.

However, I have need to express my opinion of how very unethical was from Federer to do what he had done on the final day of London, while he still continues to carry on with his image of a nice, gracious guy. His style of tennis might be graceful, but his character is very questionable as they are all those Nike awards given to him for his fair play (and many of us believed not deserved).

Federer's reaction last weekend defeated the whole purpose, not only of tennis, but of sport in general. Of course even Nole gives up his matches, Nadal complains of injury… but they either pulled out from their matches much in advance with a specific reason or faced the opponent and the scores were recorded. (For example, Nole was also rushing to his final DC in 2010, but before that he put himself in front of Federer in London and takes a beating. Fair enough. Nadal just managed to finish his match against Borna Coric despite of his appendix problem.) Moreover, it’s beyond my comprehension that in a final of a world masters one professional can say that he/she is not 100% ready to compete fearing the loss and to say it an hour before the match. The spirit of the sport is that you play as much as you can, but you have to have guts and bravery to respectfully appear in front of the audience, your opponent and to accept a defeat. You try to learn from your mistakes, you train better, you move on… but you have to have a character to be able to loose. If he can humiliate others, why he cannot face his own potential humiliation as well?

Would it be ok with you if in every major final a player who played a long semifinal comes an hour before the match and tells that he is not willing to play? Could you imagine if everyone (except Nole) refuses to play against Federer if they are not 100% ready? On the other hand, we have Nishikori who is a samurai warrior and after his exhausting match against Nole, he still faced Cilic although everyone knew that in his condition Nishikori is doomed to loose. But then, Nishikori has his tradition and his values.

Is Federer injured? No.
Was he fearing the potential injury in the final? Maybe yes, but in that case he should have started playing the final and as soon as the result is 3:0 he can call it quit.

Do Nole and Andy curse? Yes, but they are called naughty.
Were Nole’s parents too much sometimes? Maybe yes, but now we have Mirka doing the same.
Was the audience in London while clapping enthusiastically after Nole’s double fault showing high-class and knowledge of tennis ethics? Maybe not, but then we in Belgrade do the same during the DC.
Can a sportsperson who cowardly does not show up on the final match keep a title of a gentleman and keep the reputation of a smooth and sincere person? No.
…Or maybe he is no more exception in avoiding injuries and he is in this age where he is loosing this “effortless style”? Oh, it all “depends on him” if he decide to win or show up for a DC final….

'Novaks dominance' don't make me laugh. Winning one slam (only just) in a year where his main rivals are a guy who is injured most of the year and a 33 year old way past his prime carthorse.
I agree Federer did not make the right decision. It is a blemish on a career of good sportsmanship. Why are you bringing in people like mirka and novaks mafia who the players are not controlling?

Murray should be aware of his role model status for youngsters and his swearing tirades were selfish in the extreme.

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Post by Jahu Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 21:31

Hi, touch(A)parabola, are you a serbian or married to one?

So we can breakdown your post into smaller chunks.
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Post by CAS Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 22:01

It keeps coming up that Federer probably could have played but decided it wasn't worth it because he would get thrashed with a slight injury. I just don't get it, of all the players to suggest this about its just baffles me. The guy never retires.

He has said over and over since the first presentation he couldn't compete "at any level" and today I was watching an interview saying he couldn't even run on Sunday. During the presentation, it was so clear he was trying to give Novak credit and it came out he was saying Novak was too good of a player to bother trying it against. What would you have him do? Go out there and lose 6-0/1 6-0/1 in 45 minutes and hobble around? After people have spent all that money on tickets? Instead they got a 60 percent refund, watched the doubles and got 2 hours of tennis including Novak, Murray Johnny Mac etc. I know what I would rather happen!

In terms of timing, didn't the match end at 11pm or something? How much time does he have? Does he wake up and cancel first thing, or like any normal human being think "this is the final, I need to wait as long as I can if I can make this" I don't know what people expect him to do? The tournament organisers said Federer phoned them in the morning saying he has an issue with his back and hopes it will be okay in a few hours of treatment.

Just think people who aren't a fan of his think they have something they can really sink their teeth into. I mean think over the years how many matches Federer arguably didn't have a chance in and played anyway. Olympics 2012 he played the longest 3 setter in history and had to play the next day against a guy who was in the form of his life, Rome 2013 F against Rafa if I ever saw a lamb to the slaughter that was it.


Last edited by CAS on Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 22:24; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Guest Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 22:15

Exactly CAS.

Some people really are desperate to cry foul.

If Federer had started the match and withdrawn after a few games he would've been slated for that too. People would've said why didn't he withdraw before the match, at least then they could have arranged an exho and the fans could've been refunded part of the price of the tickets.

SMH.

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Post by Silver Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 22:18

He also would've been slated for getting tonked 6-0, 6-1. Literally anything he did would've drawn criticism due to the unfortunate timing of a lose-lose situation.

And naturally, some people do like the stick the knife in when the opportunity presents itself.

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Post by CAS Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 22:22

emancipator wrote:Exactly CAS.

Some people really are desperate to cry foul.

If Federer had started the match and withdrawn after a few games he would've been slated for that too. People would've said why didn't he withdraw before the match, at least then they could have arranged an exho and the fans could've been refunded part of the price of the tickets.

SMH.

Yep, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

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Post by Calder106 Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 22:58

Only the player should decide whether they play or not. They know how tbey feel.  This applies to all players.

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Post by touch(A)parabola Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 23:08

To Greengoblin:
First, I do not buy Federer’s advanced age being a reason why is Nole able to be #1. Everyone takes advantage of their age in a given moment. We can say that Federer improved his H2H score against Nole when Nole was young, inexperienced, confused, scared… Back then, Nole was loosing and we Serbs lived with it. Now Nole is the one who figure it out: How to plan his schedule, who needs to be in his team, what is the best dieting, stretching exercise… It’s his turn to show maturity and deserves those scores to be applied to him in a positive way as they were applied against him when Federer was his age.

Im not blaming anyone for having natural human expressions and emotions. I find it all part of normal reaction, without meaning to do harm, charming, temperamental. But I have a problem when these same standards are not applied to everyone and in any time, and one is proclaimed as a smooth champion and the other one a raw, unmannered creature. That is ugly manipulation.

If you have accepted to play the game of your sponsors who made you to be perceived as a fair play person, please behave like that and live up to your task. On the contrary, what Federer has done is beyond regular pulling out. Pulling out means giving a notice in advance, or pulling out in the middle of a match.
He did not retire since he was not injured, but rather afraid of loosing.
Something so selfish as what Federer has done cannot be called gracious, but is a lack of nobility in character.

To Jahu:
You must be Albanian or Croatian. Long time I have stopped reading your jealous comments. I even do not have fun reading your mood when Nole wins. You must be in a constant pain.

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Post by touch(A)parabola Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 23:18

http://www.fairplayinternational.org/fairplay/the-essence-of-fair-play#.VG50SRb43ll

“What is fair play?
Fair play is a complex notion that comprises and embodies a number of values that are fundamental not only to sport but also to everyday life.
Respect, friendship, team spirit, fair competition, sport without doping, respect for  written and unwritten rules such as equality, integrity, solidarity, tolerance, care, excellence and joy, are the building blocks of fair play that can be experienced and learnt both on and off the field.
Respect
For every athlete, playing by the written rules is mandatory. Respecting the unwritten ones is a must. Fair play requires unconditional respect for opponents, fellow players, referees and fans.”
“… Integrity
Being honest and having strong moral principles are essential to fair play. Practicing sport within a sound ethical framework is vitally important if you aim to be a true champion….”

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Post by Jahu Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 23:19

I'm neither, but next time I'm in Belgrade take me for Čevapi & Raki and we can chat?
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Post by laverfan Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 23:32

touch(A)parabola wrote:Im not blaming anyone for having natural human expressions and emotions. I find it all part of normal reaction, without meaning to do harm, charming, temperamental. But I have a problem when these same standards are not applied to everyone and in any time, and one is proclaimed as a smooth champion and the other one a raw, unmannered creature. That is ugly manipulation.

But you are blaming someone for admitting that they could not play.

touch(A)parabola wrote:If you have accepted to play the game of your sponsors who made you to be perceived as a fair play person, please behave like that and live up to your task. On the contrary, what Federer has done is beyond regular pulling out. Pulling out means giving a notice in advance, or pulling out in the middle of a match.

It is a matter of principle of an individual. One individual does not want to retire in the middle of the match, another player does. A monetary refund was provided to spectators, because they did not get what they expected. By your argument, retiring at 3:0, no refund for spectators, and no Tennis either.

touch(A)parabola wrote:He did not retire since he was not injured, but rather afraid of loosing.

Federer's career W/L is 995-226. He has lost 226 matches, one more W/L is not going to make a difference, will it?

touch(A)parabola wrote:Something so selfish as what Federer has done cannot be called gracious, but is a lack of nobility in character.

I like Djokovic as a player and a person. Does nobility also imply that he should refuse the trophy and the prize money? Does nobility also imply winning one match to collect 1.6Million and then losing the next match.


touch(A)parabola wrote:To Jahu:
You must be Albanian or Croatian. Long time I have stopped reading your jealous comments. I even do not have fun reading your mood when Nole wins. You must be in a constant pain.

Is it noble to differentiate between human beings by arbitrary lines on a map? Were Albanians, Croatians, Serbians not one nation, not too long ago?

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Post by Jahu Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 23:37

Bit of a serbian legendary nationalism there Laugh

Grow up, this is a Tennis forum, not a battle field Whistle

Is it nitb on PEDs?
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Post by It Must Be Love Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 23:53

touch a parabola wrote:He did not retire since he was not injured, but rather afraid of loosing.
Really ?
If Federer was afraid of loosing he'd pull out ahead of slam matches against Nadal.
He is indeed injured, and I saw him practice yesterday and he looked very stiff and was not moving comfortably at all.

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Post by laverfan Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 0:00

Jahu wrote:Is it nitb on PEDs?

Please leave NITB out of this discussion. She is not here to comment. I would like to avoid Italian vendetta novels where the history of the vendetta is lost, but people keep fighting and drawing more arbitrary lines on a map.

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Post by greengoblin Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 0:14

touch(A)parabola wrote:To Greengoblin:
First, I do not buy Federer’s advanced age being a reason why is Nole able to be #1. Everyone takes advantage of their age in a given moment. We can say that Federer improved his H2H score against Nole when Nole was young, inexperienced, confused, scared… Back then, Nole was loosing and we Serbs lived with it. Now Nole is the one who figure it out: How to plan his schedule, who needs to be in his team, what is the best dieting, stretching exercise… It’s his turn to show maturity and deserves those scores to be applied to him in a positive way as they were applied against him when Federer was his age.

Im not blaming anyone for having natural human expressions and emotions. I find it all part of normal reaction, without meaning to do harm, charming, temperamental. But I have a problem when these same standards are not applied to everyone and in any time, and one is proclaimed as a smooth champion and the other one a raw, unmannered creature. That is ugly manipulation.

If you have accepted to play the game of your sponsors who made you to be perceived as a fair play person, please behave like that and live up to your task. On the contrary, what Federer has done is beyond regular pulling out. Pulling out means giving a notice in advance, or pulling out in the middle of a match.
He did not retire since he was not injured, but rather afraid of loosing.
Something so selfish as what Federer has done cannot be called gracious, but is a lack of nobility in character.

To Jahu:
You must be Albanian or Croatian. Long time I have stopped reading your jealous comments. I even do not have fun reading your mood when Nole wins. You must be in a constant pain.

Ok you are obviously some serb nationalist with a chip on your shoulder. A depressingly large number of 'nole' fans fit in this category. What you don't seem to understand is that Federer's reputation was earned over a long career where he has constantly shown good grace and manners.

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Post by It Must Be Love Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 0:31

greengoblin wrote:

Ok you are obviously some serb nationalist with a chip on your shoulder. A depressingly large number of 'nole' fans fit in this category. What you don't seem to understand is that  Federer's reputation was earned over a long career where he has constantly shown good grace and manners.
Constantly ? Really ?

He's been a good ambassador for the game, but your description is very OTT.
Also don't generalise with Djokovic fans.

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Post by temporary21 Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 0:35

Please keep personal accusations off the forum, they dont go down well with its users, and theyre against the general rules and regulations of the forum

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Post by laverfan Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 1:12

greengoblin wrote:Ok you are obviously some serb nationalist with a chip on your shoulder.

Please do not draw more lines on a map. It is unfair. Please rose.

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Post by laverfan Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 1:16

It Must Be Love wrote:Constantly ? Really ?

Has ATP/WTA/ITF started accepting applications for Sainthood? Wink. No one is perfect. The Quest for Perfection is eternal.

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Post by summerblues Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 1:34

Wow. This forum has grown rather feisty the last few days.

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Post by Guest Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 6:41

All I can say is fandimodium!

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Post by Jahu Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 6:44

Come on, its perfect, sports and a bit of silly national patriotism are best friends Wink
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Post by kingraf Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 6:47

Dammit, I always seem to miss out on all the fun. Seems the forum comes alive after dark.
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Post by Jahu Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 6:52

Yeah, people getting the rage out just before going to bed, which is very healthy btw Smile
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Post by Silver Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 13:07

I have come to massively appreciate Jahu's posts over the last week, legendary advice and wisdom thumbsup

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