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Ireland where to from here?

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Post by Submachine Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:57 pm

So I’ve been thinking about New Ireland and the way we've changed in the last year. We're now all about the trusting the systems, the player next to you, sticking with the strategy and never letting the heads drop. We have always worried when a couple of our front liners have been unavailable that standards would drop but O'Driscolls absence was hardly noted in this series. Yes he would have made a difference defensively in that channel on Saturday but Ireland adapted to his absence and put extra bodies out there to help Henshaw through.
The way forward it would seem is to have a squad of around 40 players coming in to training camps etc and knowing the systems plays, calls, running lines and each other inside out. The left field call of Henshaw/Payne centre partnership, Ruddock at 7 and Felix Jones at 23 prove that doing the work in the classroom is very important to Joe. On paper there may be better alternatives but the coach like the cogs in his machine to be interchangeable. I don't think anyone will argue that TOD is a much better openside with one arm tied behind his back than Rhyss Ruddock will ever be but obviously on the training ground and in the classroom Joe the bigger picture.
But, will this new machine like approach eventually like all machines result in a break down? We have had a distinct lack of invention in our back line especially. Maybe that’s the next part of the plan. Work to a simple strategy to begin with. Let everyone perform their job and build consistency. With that consistency now there (7 wins in a row) will we now try to add a bit more flair?


I've tried to go through our pool of players assuming no injuries and come up with viable teams playing in their (mostly) correct positions. I think you could easily swap out 4/5 of the first team with players from the third team and not have a huge drop off in quality except 9, 10 and O'Connell. My 6th team has full internationals in there Like McLoughlin and Bent. That’s a decent pool of players and a lot of quality

We've now got the coach. We have the tactics. We have the players.
Here’s looking forward 2015.


Fullback
Rob Kearney, Felix Jones, Stuart Olding, Darragh Leader, Tiernan O’Halloran
Right Wing
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Andrew Conway
Outside Centre
Jared Payne, Darren Cave, Brendan Macken, Dave McSharry
Inside Centre
Robbie Henshaw, Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Noel Reid
Left wing
Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Craig Gilroy, Luke Fitzgerald, Darragh Fanning
Outhalf
Johnny Sexton, Ian Madigan, Ian Keatley, Paddy Jackson, JJ Hanrahan
Scrumhalf
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Kieran Marmion, Paul Marshall, Isaac Boss, Luke McGrath

Number Eight
Jamie Heaslip, Robin Copeland, Jordi Murphy, Roger Wilson, Jack Conan, Eoin McKeown
Openside
Sean O’Brien, Chris Henry, Tommy O'Donnell, Dominic Ryan, Willie Faloon
Blindside
Peter O'Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, Robbie Diack, Paddy Butler, Kevin McLaughlin
Second row
Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Mick McCarthy, Billy Holland, Lewis Stevenson, Alan O'Connor
Tighthead
Mike Ross, Martin Moore, Nathan White, Rodney Ah You, Declan Fitzpatrick, Stephen Archer
Hooker
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Rob Herring, Duncan Casey, Damien Varley, Mike Sherry
Loosehead
Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin, Denis Buckley, Michael Bent

Could a MOD please neaten up the formatting on my list?

Done- but I removed the guys who have as much chance of an Ireland call-up as one of us!

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Post by SecretFly Mon 24 Nov 2014, 5:07 pm

Ireland needs neatening up and then we'll take on the world!

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Post by whocares Mon 24 Nov 2014, 5:21 pm

didnt Tony Buckley retired? or is it another one (hopefully)?

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 24 Nov 2014, 5:57 pm

whocares wrote:didnt Tony Buckley retired? or is it another one (hopefully)?

Has to be a different one surely. Tony Buckley was a tighthead and took a retirement job at Sale where he was dreadful.

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Post by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:16 pm

From here nowhere really, won't threaten in the worldcup, will lose to England and France this coming six nations.

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:19 pm

Joe's focus is precision. You want a consistent standard of play and quality of performance no matter what the selection.

But the machine like lines and the anti-creativity lines I feel (in my own opinion) are more than a little unwarranted. At ASM under Joe, they had a great attacking backline. At Leinster, they would regularly pick up try-bonus points.

Joe likes players to have a go and his system will ultimately give the players on the fields the power to take a chance (execute a move) if they believe the opportunity is there. You can buy into a system and still have creativity to create tries. If anything, Joe would try and maximise the opportunities for the likes of a Nacewa to get the ball with time to see what opportunities were in front of him. But the basic fundamentals have to be there.

I still don't think they are executing their fundamentals well enough.

Even as an example, there are 3-4 defined lineout moves that Joe likes his teams to run where it requires one flanker opposite side of the field from the line out - ball gets thrown mid-back of lineout - quick ball off the top - through the centres for the fullback/wing to take it into contact at the opposite side of the field (the flanker is positioned over there already to secure quick ball). This is meant to scatter the defensive line for the next phase of player (as the forwards are trundling across the field from the lineout across the defensive line and can be exploited in a wrap around move on the next phase of play - quick ball at the first breakdown is key). Ruddock was positioned out on the wing for what I think was at least 3 lineouts at the weekend. Not once did the planned move get executed properly through messy ball at line out, slow ball to the 10, rush defense catching the outside centre. These would all have ended up as lineouts off the top with centres taking the ball up the middle, but they were all breakdowns in trying to execute the true purpose of the play with was to create the mismatches for the strike runners to exploit.

We are a long way off that yet. Hopefully it comes through during the 6Ns. But this team is a long way from their potential.

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Post by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:21 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Joe's focus is precision.  You want a consistent standard of play and quality of performance no matter what the selection.

But the machine like lines and the anti-creativity lines I feel (in my own opinion) are more than a little unwarranted.  At ASM under Joe, they had a great attacking backline.  At Leinster, they would regularly pick up try-bonus points.

Joe likes players to have a go and his system will ultimately give the players on the fields the power to take a chance (execute a move) if they believe the opportunity is there.  You can buy into a system and still have creativity to create tries.  If anything, Joe would try and maximise the opportunities for the likes of a Nacewa to get the ball with time to see what opportunities were in front of him.  But the basic fundamentals have to be there.

I still don't think they are executing their fundamentals well enough.

Even as an example, there are 3-4 defined lineout moves that Joe likes his teams to run where it requires one flanker opposite side of the field from the line out - ball gets thrown mid-back of lineout - quick ball off the top - through the centres for the fullback/wing to take it into contact at the opposite side of the field (the flanker is positioned over there already to secure quick ball).  This is meant to scatter the defensive line for the next phase of player (as the forwards are trundling across the field from the lineout across the defensive line and can be exploited in a wrap around move on the next phase of play - quick ball at the first breakdown is key).  Ruddock was positioned out on the wing for what I think was at least 3 lineouts at the weekend.  Not once did the planned move get executed properly through messy ball at line out, slow ball to the 10, rush defense catching the outside centre.  These would all have ended up as lineouts off the top with centres taking the ball up the middle, but they were all breakdowns in trying to execute the true purpose of the play with was to create the mismatches for the strike runners to exploit.

We are a long way off that yet. Hopefully it comes through during the 6Ns.  But this team is a long way from their potential.
I know tell me about it good old Joe eh! Joe Joe Joe he's a lad eh!

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:22 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:From here nowhere really, won't threaten in the worldcup, will lose to England and France this coming six nations.

Hmm, England and France will face a tough challenge in Lansdowne Road as it will be an odd-numbered year. Away to Scotland in the last round might end up being the toughest challenge (and I say that to mean Scotland will be a viable threat and will surprise many in the coming 6N).

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:24 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:Joe's focus is precision.  You want a consistent standard of play and quality of performance no matter what the selection.

But the machine like lines and the anti-creativity lines I feel (in my own opinion) are more than a little unwarranted.  At ASM under Joe, they had a great attacking backline.  At Leinster, they would regularly pick up try-bonus points.

Joe likes players to have a go and his system will ultimately give the players on the fields the power to take a chance (execute a move) if they believe the opportunity is there.  You can buy into a system and still have creativity to create tries.  If anything, Joe would try and maximise the opportunities for the likes of a Nacewa to get the ball with time to see what opportunities were in front of him.  But the basic fundamentals have to be there.

I still don't think they are executing their fundamentals well enough.

Even as an example, there are 3-4 defined lineout moves that Joe likes his teams to run where it requires one flanker opposite side of the field from the line out - ball gets thrown mid-back of lineout - quick ball off the top - through the centres for the fullback/wing to take it into contact at the opposite side of the field (the flanker is positioned over there already to secure quick ball).  This is meant to scatter the defensive line for the next phase of player (as the forwards are trundling across the field from the lineout across the defensive line and can be exploited in a wrap around move on the next phase of play - quick ball at the first breakdown is key).  Ruddock was positioned out on the wing for what I think was at least 3 lineouts at the weekend.  Not once did the planned move get executed properly through messy ball at line out, slow ball to the 10, rush defense catching the outside centre.  These would all have ended up as lineouts off the top with centres taking the ball up the middle, but they were all breakdowns in trying to execute the true purpose of the play with was to create the mismatches for the strike runners to exploit.

We are a long way off that yet. Hopefully it comes through during the 6Ns.  But this team is a long way from their potential.
I know tell me about it good old Joe eh! Joe Joe Joe he's a lad eh!

Just the coach (and a fairly decent one at that).

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Post by The Great Aukster Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:27 pm

Denis Buckley from Connacht is a LH (but has on occasion played TH). Joe needs a prop who can play both sides if he is to take five rather than six props to the RWC - don't think it would be Denis Buckley though. I'd have Warwick and Black ahead of him at LH anyway, especially Warwick who has also played both sides and is a great prospect.


Interesting article though SM thumbsup
I think Joe will be looking at 46 players rather than 40 or 90 though! That gives him two full teams and two benches for all training sessions, so if a player goes down he has enough in reserve to slot the next one in. He will be wanting to focus on about 32/33 players where there are really tight calls to get down to a final squad of 30.

It's the most logical reason why Ah You was hardly played in the AIs - Joe doesn't consider him to be near his core squad and therefore he was only short term emergency cover.

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Post by wolfball Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:36 pm

Submachine wrote:
8 Heaslip Copeland   Murphy   Wilson     Conan McKeown
7 O’Brien Henry   TOD   Ryan     Jennings Faloon
6 POM Ruddock   Diack   Butler     Muldoon McLoughlin

It's weird to say this, but there are some glaring weaknesses in our backrow depth once we get past the first couple. This has always been our biggest strength so its weird. TOD, Ruddock, Copeland are all huge drops from our first 4 players (SOB,POM,Heaslip, Henry) and not many international quality ball carriers are on this list either.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:43 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:From here nowhere really, won't threaten in the worldcup, will lose to England and France this coming six nations.

Could do. We also could lose to Wales and Scotland instead. But then again, maybe we won't. Be happy Dave - you'll enjoy the victory more if you let us think we're the best side in the bloomin' world that happens to be Irish and coached by JOE Wink

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Post by SecretFly Mon 24 Nov 2014, 6:50 pm

One game at a time - as the song goes. There is little point in talking about depth in terms of asking what'll happen if all of a sudden and in the same month we lose 30 players (main positional player and next in line) in one go.

It won't happen. Most of these 4th or 5th choice possibles will never get a sniff of an Ireland shirt this year so it's pointless worrying about how weaker we'll be with them. All sides start to fret when they get past 2nd choice players.

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Post by Submachine Mon 24 Nov 2014, 8:59 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Joe's focus is precision.  You want a consistent standard of play and quality of performance no matter what the selection.

But the machine like lines and the anti-creativity lines I feel (in my own opinion) are more than a little unwarranted.  At ASM under Joe, they had a great attacking backline.  At Leinster, they would regularly pick up try-bonus points.

Joe likes players to have a go and his system will ultimately give the players on the fields the power to take a chance (execute a move) if they believe the opportunity is there.  You can buy into a system and still have creativity to create tries.  If anything, Joe would try and maximise the opportunities for the likes of a Nacewa to get the ball with time to see what opportunities were in front of him.  But the basic fundamentals have to be there.

I still don't think they are executing their fundamentals well enough.

Even as an example, there are 3-4 defined lineout moves that Joe likes his teams to run where it requires one flanker opposite side of the field from the line out - ball gets thrown mid-back of lineout - quick ball off the top - through the centres for the fullback/wing to take it into contact at the opposite side of the field (the flanker is positioned over there already to secure quick ball).  This is meant to scatter the defensive line for the next phase of player (as the forwards are trundling across the field from the lineout across the defensive line and can be exploited in a wrap around move on the next phase of play - quick ball at the first breakdown is key).  Ruddock was positioned out on the wing for what I think was at least 3 lineouts at the weekend.  Not once did the planned move get executed properly through messy ball at line out, slow ball to the 10, rush defense catching the outside centre.  These would all have ended up as lineouts off the top with centres taking the ball up the middle, but they were all breakdowns in trying to execute the true purpose of the play with was to create the mismatches for the strike runners to exploit.

We are a long way off that yet. Hopefully it comes through during the 6Ns.  But this team is a long way from their potential.

Good examples band but Is that the difference between coaching at club level and internationally? Will we have to tear up the Schmidt book of set moves and start afresh or at least change it up somewhat? Two big wins are great but our first phase attack especially has had no cutting edge. Hopefully Hensaw and Payne get to build on their partnership and it starts to come a bit easier.
I have no doubt that the players can maintain the levels of intensity that they have consistently put together recently. It's a mindset and it's obvious they have moved to a new level on that front but will the bodies be able to cope with the physicality? You can't go in to a campaign needing your props and 35 year old second row having to put in 80 minute shifts every week.
I just think we need to start getting a few more, less hard earned scores or we'll fiend ourselves having to dip way into that player pool by the time the WC comes round.

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Post by Submachine Mon 24 Nov 2014, 9:25 pm

Submachine wrote:So I’ve been thinking about New Ireland and the way we've changed in the last year. We're now all about the trusting the systems, the player next to you, sticking with the strategy and never letting the heads drop. We have always worried when a couple of our front liners have been unavailable that standards would drop but O'Driscolls absence was hardly noted in this series. Yes he would have made a difference defensively in that channel on Saturday but Ireland adapted to his absence and put extra bodies out there to help Henshaw through.
The way forward it would seem is to have a squad of around 40 players coming in to training camps etc and knowing the systems plays, calls, running lines and each other inside out. The left field call of Henshaw/Payne centre partnership, Ruddock at 7 and Felix Jones at 23 prove that doing the work in the classroom is very important to Joe. On paper there may be better alternatives but the coach like the cogs in his machine to be interchangeable. I don't think anyone will argue that TOD is a much better openside with one arm tied behind his back than Rhyss Ruddock will ever be but obviously on the training ground and in the classroom Joe the bigger picture.
But, will this new machine like approach eventually like all machines result in a break down? We have had a distinct lack of invention in our back line especially. Maybe that’s the next part of the plan. Work to a simple strategy to begin with. Let everyone perform their job and build consistency. With that consistency now there (7 wins in a row) will we now try to add a bit more flair?


I've tried to go through our pool of players assuming no injuries and come up with viable teams playing in their (mostly) correct positions. I think you could easily swap out 4/5 of the first team with players from the third team and not have a huge drop off in quality except 9, 10 and O'Connell. My 6th team has full internationals in there Like McLoughlin and Bent. That’s a decent pool of players and a lot of quality

We've now got the coach. We have the tactics. We have the players.
Here’s looking forward 2015.


Fullback
Rob Kearney, Felix Jones, Stuart Olding, Darragh Leader, Tiernan O’Halloran
Right Wing
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Andrew Conway
Outside Centre
Jared Payne, Darren Cave, Brendan Macken, Dave McSharry
Inside Centre
Robbie Henshaw, Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Noel Reid
Left wing
Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Craig Gilroy, Luke Fitzgerald, Darragh Fanning
Outhalf
Johnny Sexton, Ian Madigan, Ian Keatley, Paddy Jackson, JJ Hanrahan
Scrumhalf
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Kieran Marmion, Paul Marshall, Isaac Boss, Luke McGrath

Number Eight
Jamie Heaslip, Robin Copeland, Jordi Murphy, Roger Wilson, Jack Conan, Eoin McKeown
Openside
Sean O’Brien, Chris Henry, Tommy O'Donnell, Dominic Ryan, Willie Faloon
Blindside
Peter O'Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, Robbie Diack, Paddy Butler, Kevin McLaughlin
Second row
Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Mick McCarthy, Billy Holland, Lewis Stevenson, Alan O'Connor
Tighthead
Mike Ross, Martin Moore, Nathan White, Rodney Ah You, Declan Fitzpatrick, Stephen Archer
Hooker
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Rob Herring, Duncan Casey, Damien Varley, Mike Sherry
Loosehead
Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin, Denis Buckley, Michael Bent

Could a MOD please neaten up the formatting on my list?

Done- but I removed the guys who have as much chance of an Ireland call-up as one of us!

Bit cheeky, I spent quite a bit of time putting together 6 full teams from 1 to 15. I wasn't suggesting they should all get a run at 13, just trying to highlight that we have great depth. You also seem to have include Alan O'Connor in the second rows and I have no idea who that is. Perhaps you could have just commented with your opinions and left the red pen in your drawer.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 24 Nov 2014, 9:27 pm

Yep, Submachine. We need more space between us than 3 or 4 points and clinging desperately to stamina at the end to try to keep defensive shape.

My only sidenote would be to remind people that Schmidt is a smart man. He's building a profile of Ireland that other sides are looking at and constructing blueprints to beat us on. So maybe he'll stay a one track pony and he'll continue to grind out wins or maybe he'll change things just when a long developed bluff might work best.

I don't know the truth - but it's exciting working through the possibilities.

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Post by Notch Mon 24 Nov 2014, 9:49 pm

Alan O'Connor is a lock for Ulster who is ahead of Neil McComb in the pecking order. You also had McComish as a lock which is not his position. He's a back row and he's a shoite backrow. O'Connor is miles ahead of both of them in terms of talent and potential.

Sorry didn't have time to read the rest of your post, only skimmed it, so didn't realise it wasn't just another squad list and was meant to be six teams. But you can't complain about that if you openly ask a mod to edit your post which is exactly what I did. I just removed a few things that looked like obvious mistakes, like the inclusion of guys who aren't within an arses roar, Stuart Olding being more likely to play 13 when its 12 or 15 he's being considered at, or the omission of guys like O'Connor and Herring that you've just forgotten about. If I had realised you were going for the six teams I would have done it very differently of course.

If you type up what you want to be edited in I will put it in.
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Post by wolfball Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:20 pm

The more important list is who are the players that Joe still needs to see play internationally to be sure they can slot into his systems? I am removing all players without (in my view) a shot at the WC and highlighting the players that Joe may not feel confident in slotting in yet (in blue). These are the players who might be able to get a game in the 6 nations/4 warm up matches pre-WC. Note, adding some long term injury candidates who are proven internationals as Joe hasnt had much chance to work with them...

Fullback
Rob Kearney, Felix Jones,
Right Wing
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden,
Outside Centre
Jared Payne, (Robbie Henshaw is secondary here as more 12 options)
Inside Centre
Robbie Henshaw, Gordon D'Arcy, Stuart Olding, Stuart McCloskey,
Left wing
Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Craig Gilroy, Luke Fitzgerald, 
Outhalf
Johnny Sexton, Ian Madigan, Ian Keatley, Paddy Jackson,
Scrumhalf
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Kieran Marmion, Isaac Boss

Number Eight
Jamie Heaslip, Robin Copeland, Jordi Murphy
Openside
Sean O’Brien, Chris Henry, Tommy O'Donnell, Dominic Ryan, 
Blindside
Peter O'Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, Robbie Diack, Kevin McLaughlin
Second row
Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Mick McCarthy, 
Tighthead
Mike Ross, Martin Moore, Nathan White,
Hooker
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Duncan Casey
Loosehead
Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin

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Post by Notch Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:23 pm

I'm sorry Submachine. It was all a big misunderstanding. Can we be friends? Hug
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Post by Submachine Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:28 pm

Notch wrote:I'm sorry Submachine. It was all a big misunderstanding. Can we be friends? Hug

Feic ya notch. I had a semi rant all ready to go and you go and be all sound.

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Post by Taylorman Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:37 pm

Interesting attack remains the shortcoming for this side with Schmidt on board. Here he was very good with that so its good he's there to work on that. Add a better attack to the current side and well...skys the limit.

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Post by Notch Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:38 pm

Submachine wrote:
Notch wrote:I'm sorry Submachine. It was all a big misunderstanding. Can we be friends? Hug

Feic ya notch. I had a semi rant all ready to go and you go and be all sound.

Good man. Like I say, if you want to type out the teams I'll change the OP. Sorry.
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Post by FecklessRogue Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:25 pm

Ireland have to evolve into a better attacking force, running with the ball. As effective as we have been, what if the kicking game is not working? Settling on two centers and getting Healy and O'Brien back is crucial. On the centers Henshaw/Payne needs more time. I'd like to see Olding get some games too. D'arcy should not be a starter. But the clock is against us here. On the two missing big ball carriers, I don't know when they're due back. Anyone know?

We also need to fix the lineout which I think we will do. They weren't up to standard in this series but I'm sure they'll get it right. The scrum is more worrying. We just have to hope Mike (The Bull Hayes mark 2) Ross gets fully fit and in form and stays that way.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue 25 Nov 2014, 10:04 am

I'd say there is plenty of creativity in the backline,what we need is decent ball from our forwards in order to let them free.

While our pack has been very strong at the breakdown defensively I'd say that in attack we have been safe rather than good there.We aren't giving away turnovers or getting isolated and Murray is getting the ball served up on a plate but the opposition defense is set by the time we have the ball out.The pack needs to be getting an extra yard or 2 on each carry just so that defenses are still flatfooted by the time the ball comes out.It's only a small improvement but I feel that if we can get that right we will start to see better attacking play.The question is can we make that improvement or will it take the return of the big carriers like Healy,SoB and possibly introducing Henderson for Toner.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 Nov 2014, 10:13 am

What Ireland have at the moment is probably the best coaching set-up of all the six nations, I can only dream of what Wales could achieve with the same coaches, for me, Ireland are my dark horses to at least get to the final of the WC, the only real issue I have, and it is probably me being picky, is, have you peaked to early ? Also a lot lies on Sexton staying fit and in form, but yeah, Ireland are definatley the best in Europe at the moment.

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Post by Sin é Tue 25 Nov 2014, 10:14 am

I think the problem is with the centres. Interesting stat from the Aus game. Our centres passed the ball 3 times (combined) to the Australian centres passing it 33 times! Joe will needs to develop a less 'safe' gameplan. He probably needs to get the ball more to gamebreakers like Zebo rather than having him make endless tackles.

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Post by Bathman_in_London Tue 25 Nov 2014, 10:38 am

From here... Back to back 6N wins and then progressing the furthest of the 6N teams in the WC I would think. As someone mentioned above keeping Sexton injury free will be key, but with players fit and firing, having one of the best coaches around can only mean success.


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Post by SecretFly Tue 25 Nov 2014, 10:44 am

To me Zebo had his best game in an Irish shirt... by a mile.  
But defence is the mantra to all players for now.  They tried to, or were dragged into, a looser game when 17 up in the first half but paid the price.  
A single mistake, but that one mistake dictated the rest of the game.  Australia took advantage of the structure breaking up and we reverted rapidly back to a more stoic game when the half-time chat came.
We'll have to elaborate again though, as furious defensive games will always be white knuckle rides against the best sides, and the odds of winning those close calls decreases over time.
But I still think the guys are doing much more creative stuff in training but just being ordered not to practice in real games yet.  Sexton hinted a few times that they were satisfied with the win but frustrated that they didn't get an opportunity to be looser and attack the Australians.  
Developing confidence in this team was a very fragile exercise that could have collapsed at any time with unfavourable results - through the 6N and this AI series.  Schmidt knows that his first job is to have the players trusting each other, working for each other and feeling safe in what they do.  Riskier stuff might follow when Schmidt is 100% certain that his players can revert to type in a fix and play the present game on auto-pilot.

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Post by Sin é Tue 25 Nov 2014, 11:00 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:From here...  Back to back 6N wins and then progressing the furthest of the 6N teams in the WC I would think. As someone mentioned above keeping Sexton injury free will be key, but with players fit and firing, having one of the best coaches around can only mean success.


I think Paul O'Connell is our most important player. I think Madigan could do a job for Sexton (and I don't think people are giving enough credit to Murray for taking pressure off Sexton, but I don't see anyone close to being able to do a job for Paul O'Connell.

Kiss is a top class coach but I think there are question marks over Simon Easterby as forwards coach.
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Post by Biltong Tue 25 Nov 2014, 11:05 am

OP wrote:Fullback
Rob Kearney, Felix Jones, Stuart Olding, Darragh Leader, Tiernan O’Halloran
Right Wing
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Andrew Conway
Outside Centre
Jared Payne, Darren Cave, Brendan Macken, Dave McSharry
Inside Centre
Robbie Henshaw, Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Noel Reid
Left wing
Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Craig Gilroy, Luke Fitzgerald, Darragh Fanning
Outhalf
Johnny Sexton, Ian Madigan, Ian Keatley, Paddy Jackson, JJ Hanrahan
Scrumhalf
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Kieran Marmion, Paul Marshall, Isaac Boss, Luke McGrath

Number Eight
Jamie Heaslip, Robin Copeland, Jordi Murphy, Roger Wilson, Jack Conan, Eoin McKeown
Openside
Sean O’Brien, Chris Henry, Tommy O'Donnell, Dominic Ryan, Willie Faloon
Blindside
Peter O'Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, Robbie Diack, Paddy Butler, Kevin McLaughlin
Second row
Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Mick McCarthy, Billy Holland, Lewis Stevenson, Alan O'Connor
Tighthead
Mike Ross, Martin Moore, Nathan White, Rodney Ah You, Declan Fitzpatrick, Stephen Archer
Hooker
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Rob Herring, Duncan Casey, Damien Varley, Mike Sherry
Loosehead
Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin, Denis Buckley, Michael Bent

OK, I haven't read all the posts, so I am going to have a stab a this from an outsider's perspective.

First of all, the list of players tells me one of two things, either Ireland has a SH..tload full of talent and more depth than even New Zealand or South Africa has, or alternatively they have too many players that don't stand about.

I am going to see it as the OP being optimistic in these player's chances to play for Ireland.

What you are looking for is three players per position.

Whereto from here?

It is easy to fall back into the back, the wins over OZ and SA are just that two very well executed wins, but it is what comes next that will dictate whether the form Ireland has now shown in November can carry on into 2015.

So, the Six Nations and winning it by being undefeated is the only outcome Ireland should be looking at. Lose one or two matches in the Six Nations, then you are back to being able to contest with the best, but also able to lose to your peers.

What was very evident for me during this November was the structure that Schmidt has been instilling into the Irish team, they have a clear plan, Execute the basics, control territory through Murray and Sexton, and retain structure in defence and attack.

To beat top teams you need a few things, you need to stop them from scoring tries, defensive structure is not the only way of stopping tries, the breakdown is as important if not more important as the breakdown determines the next phase of attack.

Slow down ball and the opposition has to start all over trying to find mismatches. Schmidt has coached this well, very well.

With Sexton and Murray executing their kicks well they have shown they can control territory for Ireland which makes teams having to attack from deeper out, the kick and chase employed by IReland also worked wonders for them, as I suspect South Africa and Australia have failed to work on that part of their game. We haven't seen much of the Up and under in the RC in recent years.

BUt, now teams know about it, and they will not neglect it again.

The danger for Ireland is that they feel comfortable with their attacking structure in the opponent's half, but if they chase the scoreboard, this can turn into pressure.

I would like to see how Ireland manages to execute and trust their game plan when under pressure of being behind by 10 points, even South Africa has shown when they played the up and under game, it is not as successful when you fall behind.

That is why they have been working on scoring more tries and are willing to run from their own 22 when they recognise the space.

I am sure Schmidt will improve the attacking play for Ireland and expand their manner of scoring points, for now kicking every possible goal keeps the scoreboard ticking.

Their win over South Africa worked because they stayed in front and made SA chase the game and they made too many errors and their decision making failed on the day.

The win against Australia went their way, but when your opponent outscores you by three tries to two, you have to look at that win in context.

Ireland must be able to create tries from phase play, they must attack on the counter, and sometimes it will be necessary to run from your own 22, I think the foundation of defence, slowing ball down, tactical territorial game is all there.

I don't think depth is an issue, there seems to be enough talent (although the OP's list is unrealistic).

Continuing to win is now the best way to cement the belief, but the win over Australia in my view was a great start with an intercept, a cross kick, but then nothing created for 65 minutes, whereas Australia blitzed you by great phase play.

Something to take cognisance of.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 25 Nov 2014, 11:22 am

Sin é wrote:
Kiss is a top class coach but I think there are question marks over Simon Easterby as forwards coach.

It's early days but there might be a grain of truth there. I'll reserve judgement for a time though. That was his first few games. He'll be better informed now going into the 6N. We'll see what we get.


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Post by ME-109 Tue 25 Nov 2014, 11:59 am

Biltong wrote:
OP wrote:Fullback
Rob Kearney, Felix Jones, Stuart Olding, Darragh Leader, Tiernan O’Halloran
Right Wing
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Andrew Conway
Outside Centre
Jared Payne, Darren Cave, Brendan Macken, Dave McSharry
Inside Centre
Robbie Henshaw, Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Noel Reid
Left wing
Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Craig Gilroy, Luke Fitzgerald, Darragh Fanning
Outhalf
Johnny Sexton, Ian Madigan, Ian Keatley, Paddy Jackson, JJ Hanrahan
Scrumhalf
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Kieran Marmion, Paul Marshall, Isaac Boss, Luke McGrath

Number Eight
Jamie Heaslip, Robin Copeland, Jordi Murphy, Roger Wilson, Jack Conan, Eoin McKeown
Openside
Sean O’Brien, Chris Henry, Tommy O'Donnell, Dominic Ryan, Willie Faloon
Blindside
Peter O'Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, Robbie Diack, Paddy Butler, Kevin McLaughlin
Second row
Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Mick McCarthy, Billy Holland, Lewis Stevenson, Alan O'Connor
Tighthead
Mike Ross, Martin Moore, Nathan White, Rodney Ah You, Declan Fitzpatrick, Stephen Archer
Hooker
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Rob Herring, Duncan Casey, Damien Varley, Mike Sherry
Loosehead
Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin, Denis Buckley, Michael Bent

OK, I haven't read all the posts, so I am going to have a stab a this from an outsider's perspective.

First of all, the list of players tells me one of two things, either Ireland has a SH..tload full of talent and more depth than even New Zealand or South Africa has, or alternatively they have too many players that don't stand about.

I am going to see it as the OP being optimistic in these player's chances to play for Ireland.

What you are looking for is three players per position.

Whereto from here?

It is easy to fall back into the back, the wins over OZ and SA are just that two very well executed wins, but it is what comes next that will dictate whether the form Ireland has now shown in November can carry on into 2015.

So, the Six Nations and winning it by being undefeated is the only outcome Ireland should be looking at. Lose one or two matches in the Six Nations, then you are back to being able to contest with the best, but also able to lose to your peers.

What was very evident for me during this November was the structure that Schmidt has been instilling into the Irish team, they have a clear plan, Execute the basics, control territory through Murray and Sexton, and retain structure in defence and attack.

To beat top teams you need a few things, you need to stop them from scoring tries, defensive structure is not the only way of stopping tries, the breakdown is as important if not more important as the breakdown determines the next phase of attack.

Slow down ball and the opposition has to start all over trying to find mismatches. Schmidt has coached this well, very well.

With Sexton and Murray executing their kicks well they have shown they can control territory for Ireland which makes teams having to attack from deeper out, the kick and chase employed by IReland also worked wonders for them, as I suspect South Africa and Australia have failed to work on that part of their game. We haven't seen much of the Up and under in the RC in recent years.

BUt, now teams know about it, and they will not neglect it again.

The danger for Ireland is that they feel comfortable with their attacking structure in the opponent's half, but if they chase the scoreboard, this can turn into pressure.

I would like to see how Ireland manages to execute and trust their game plan when under pressure of being behind by 10 points, even South Africa has shown when they played the up and under game, it is not as successful when you fall behind.

That is why they have been working on scoring more tries and are willing to run from their own 22 when they recognise the space.

I am sure Schmidt will improve the attacking play for Ireland and expand their manner of scoring points, for now kicking every possible goal keeps the scoreboard ticking.

Their win over South Africa worked because they stayed in front and made SA chase the game and they made too many errors and their decision making failed on the day.

The win against Australia went their way, but when your opponent outscores you by three tries to two, you have to look at that win in context.

Ireland must be able to create tries from phase play, they must attack on the counter, and sometimes it will be necessary to run from your own 22, I think the foundation of defence, slowing ball down, tactical territorial game is all there.

I don't think depth is an issue, there seems to be enough talent (although the OP's list is unrealistic).

Continuing to win is now the best way to cement the belief, but the win over Australia in my view was a great start with an intercept, a cross kick, but then nothing created for 65 minutes, whereas Australia blitzed you by great phase play.

Something to take cognisance of.


You hit the proverbial nail on the head...great post.

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Post by gleesonisgod Tue 25 Nov 2014, 12:34 pm

What was it about Payne's performance against SA that changed everyone's opinion about him being a 13?

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Post by Submachine Tue 25 Nov 2014, 12:39 pm

Don't think it was the performance itself. More the fact that the combination with Henshaw worked well defensively and it should be given an oportunity to develop.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue 25 Nov 2014, 1:25 pm

Sin é wrote:I think the problem is with the centres. Interesting stat from the Aus game. Our centres passed the ball 3 times (combined) to the Australian centres passing it 33 times! Joe will needs to develop a less 'safe' gameplan. He probably needs to get the ball more to gamebreakers like Zebo rather than having him make endless tackles.


I'd have to disagree,I can't remember any situation in either game where our centres got the ball in a dangerous situuation.They would have to create something out of nothing with the ball they are getting right now and while it's nice to have players that can do that you can't rely on it.Our pack needs to step up,Toner had a good game defensively against S.A. but was non existent with the ball in either game and just poor all round against Oz.Our backrow especially need to up their game in this regard I think all 3 of them did very little with the ball on Saturday.

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Post by Submachine Tue 25 Nov 2014, 1:29 pm

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/tony-ward-schmidts-rich-reserves-underline-world-cup-credentials-30771458.html

I wonder does Tony Ward frequent this place? Wink


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Post by Nos na Gaoithe Tue 25 Nov 2014, 1:35 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:I think the problem is with the centres. Interesting stat from the Aus game. Our centres passed the ball 3 times (combined) to the Australian centres passing it 33 times! Joe will needs to develop a less 'safe' gameplan. He probably needs to get the ball more to gamebreakers like Zebo rather than having him make endless tackles.


I'd have to disagree,I can't remember any situation in either game where our centres got the ball in a dangerous situuation.They would have to create something out of nothing with the ball they are getting right now and while it's nice to have players that can do that you can't rely on it.Our pack needs to step up,Toner had a good game defensively against S.A. but was non existent with the ball in either game and just poor all round against Oz.Our backrow especially need to up their game in this regard I think all 3 of them did very little with the ball on Saturday.

Yeah. For the moment I'd have to go with ASLS's reading. We may well find that our new centres are lacking in creativity... but you certainly can't put that all on them after the Aus match. The Irish breakdown area was frequently going backwards at a rate of knots. It was all they could do to get to the rucks in time. That gain line problem is one area that really was disturbing if we are supposed to be entering a new dawn of high-level competitivity. Every team looks incompetent when they are losing 5-6 metres on each phase... and almost every team looks like the ABs when they are making 5-6 yards on every phase.

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Post by profitius Tue 25 Nov 2014, 1:37 pm

Submachine wrote:
Fullback
Rob Kearney, Felix Jones, Stuart Olding, Darragh Leader, Tiernan O’Halloran
Right Wing
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Andrew Conway
Outside Centre
Jared Payne, Darren Cave, Brendan Macken, Dave McSharry
Inside Centre
Robbie Henshaw, Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Noel Reid
Left wing
Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Craig Gilroy, Luke Fitzgerald, Darragh Fanning
Outhalf
Johnny Sexton, Ian Madigan, Ian Keatley, Paddy Jackson, JJ Hanrahan
Scrumhalf
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Kieran Marmion, Paul Marshall, Isaac Boss, Luke McGrath

Number Eight
Jamie Heaslip, Robin Copeland, Jordi Murphy, Roger Wilson, Jack Conan, Eoin McKeown
Openside
Sean O’Brien, Chris Henry, Tommy O'Donnell, Dominic Ryan, Willie Faloon
Blindside
Peter O'Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, Robbie Diack, Paddy Butler, Kevin McLaughlin
Second row
Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Mick McCarthy, Billy Holland, Lewis Stevenson, Alan O'Connor
Tighthead
Mike Ross, Martin Moore, Nathan White, Rodney Ah You, Declan Fitzpatrick, Stephen Archer
Hooker
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Rob Herring, Duncan Casey, Damien Varley, Mike Sherry
Loosehead
Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin, Denis Buckley, Michael Bent
Nice list there Submachine. I've put a line through the players who have little chance of making it IMO.

These are some of the best players around the fringes of the squads.
Leader, McCloskey, Olding, Hanrahan, Marmion, Copeland, Conan, Henderson, Moore, Sherry James Cronin, Denis Buckley, Nathan White


I wouldn't write off Tadhg Furlong or Dave O'Callaghan either. Furlong is very young but the prop situation is a bit of a mystery at the moment so a big season from him and you never know. You have the likes of Declan Fitzpatrick who is very solid and then Archer who blows hot and cold so he needs a consistent run of form.
Dave OC is just back from long term injuries and was called into the Ireland squad a few years back.

I've only seen a little bit of Alan O'Connor but he has been very impressive so maybe another man to look out for.
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Post by SecretFly Tue 25 Nov 2014, 1:46 pm

Oh God!  Someone else edited Sub's post!  He's not going to be pleased.  mad

Leave his post bleedin' alone, would yis!

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Post by lostinwales Tue 25 Nov 2014, 1:57 pm

Where to from here?

Well I wouldnt start from here.....

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Post by SecretFly Tue 25 Nov 2014, 1:59 pm

Submachine wrote:
Fullback
Cornflakes
Right Wing
Sliced Pan
Outside Centre
Milk (Two Litre cartons)
Inside Centre
Some lamb cutlets, surloin steak, pound of sausages
Left wing
Cheddar Cheese
Outhalf
Bag of Apples
Scrumhalf
Head of Cabbage

Number Eight
Oranges
Openside
Potatoes
Blindside
Shampoo
Second row
Dog biscuits
Tighthead
Cat food sachets
Hooker
Toothpaste
Loosehead
Olive Oil Spread


Good list Sub.  I've modified it slightly to take into account my shopping list.

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Post by Submachine Tue 25 Nov 2014, 2:09 pm

profitius wrote:
Submachine wrote:
Fullback
Rob Kearney, Felix Jones, Stuart Olding, Darragh Leader, Tiernan O’Halloran
Right Wing
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Andrew Conway
Outside Centre
Jared Payne, Darren Cave, Brendan Macken, Dave McSharry
Inside Centre
Robbie Henshaw, Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Noel Reid
Left wing
Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Craig Gilroy, Luke Fitzgerald, Darragh Fanning
Outhalf
Johnny Sexton, Ian Madigan, Ian Keatley, Paddy Jackson, JJ Hanrahan
Scrumhalf
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Kieran Marmion, Paul Marshall, Isaac Boss, Luke McGrath

Number Eight
Jamie Heaslip, Robin Copeland, Jordi Murphy, Roger Wilson, Jack Conan, Eoin McKeown
Openside
Sean O’Brien, Chris Henry, Tommy O'Donnell, Dominic Ryan, Willie Faloon
Blindside
Peter O'Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, Robbie Diack, Paddy Butler, Kevin McLaughlin
Second row
Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Mick McCarthy, Billy Holland, Lewis Stevenson, Alan O'Connor
Tighthead
Mike Ross, Martin Moore, Nathan White, Rodney Ah You, Declan Fitzpatrick, Stephen Archer
Hooker
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Rob Herring, Duncan Casey, Damien Varley, Mike Sherry
Loosehead
Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin, Denis Buckley, Michael Bent
Nice list there Submachine. I've put a line through the players who have little chance of making it IMO.

These are some of the best players around the fringes of the squads.
Leader, McCloskey, Olding, Hanrahan, Marmion, Copeland, Conan, Henderson, Moore, Sherry James Cronin, Denis Buckley, Nathan White


I wouldn't write off Tadhg Furlong or Dave O'Callaghan either. Furlong is very young but the prop situation is a bit of a mystery at the moment so a big season from him and you never know. You have the likes of Declan Fitzpatrick who is very solid and then Archer who blows hot and cold so he needs a consistent run of form.
Dave OC is just back from long term injuries and was called into the Ireland squad a few years back.

I've only seen a little bit of Alan O'Connor but he has been very impressive so maybe another man to look out for.

Thats not actually my list. Notch had a go at culling it for me already. Must come from good farming stock. Seemed to think I asked him to when i asked him to tidy up the formatting. Not that I'm being precious or anything.
Anyway. It was meant to be 6 fully IQ international sides from 1-15. I was struggling a bit toward the end fitting a few square pegs into round holes but the point was simply to have a look at the strength and depth of the player pool in the four provinces. The top three teams were all very strong.
Notch got a little creative also and added O'Connor whom I've never heard of and Herring whom I didn't rate in the top 6 hookers. Seemed to think I had forgotten them.

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Post by wolfball Tue 25 Nov 2014, 2:14 pm

Submachine wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/tony-ward-schmidts-rich-reserves-underline-world-cup-credentials-30771458.html

I wonder does Tony Ward frequent this place? Wink


Ward on props... "Tighthead is a little more tricky but probably with Rodney Ah You, Marty Moore, Stephen Archer and Nathan White in that order. "  Headscratch


More like, Moore, White, Ah You, Archer in that order after Ross..

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Post by The Great Aukster Tue 25 Nov 2014, 2:20 pm

Sin é wrote:I think the problem is with the centres. Interesting stat from the Aus game. Our centres passed the ball 3 times (combined) to the Australian centres passing it 33 times! Joe will needs to develop a less 'safe' gameplan. He probably needs to get the ball more to gamebreakers like Zebo rather than having him make endless tackles.

This is totally unrepresentative of the stats. The fuller picture is:

Henshaw Kick 2, Pass 2, Run 7
D'Arcy K0, P1, R8
Sexton K16, P24, R7

Kuridrani K0, P2, R6
Toomua K5, P30, R9
Foley K14, P14, R9

It is obvious that the big difference is at inside centre not "the centres". Nearly everyone has acknowledged that Darcy is slower and less effective than he once was, but that is all in hindsight. He was still the most experienced option available to Joe before the game started. It is also tough to do much from the 12 position when you're on the back foot and the opposition defence is crawling all over you.

It is also obvious that Toomua was operating as a 2nd 5/8 which is more akin to his game and the game being asked of him by Cheika. Add to that the little amount of pressure exerted upon him by Darce and the stats are unsurprising.

The stats show nothing in relation to how safe or otherwise the gameplan was. I'm sure the team didn't go out to get bullied up front (again) and had hoped the set piece would function better, freeing up the backs to play. When faced with the Wallaby whirlwind on the pitch they showed they had enough nous to batten down the hatches and steer the ship back to port.

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Post by Submachine Tue 25 Nov 2014, 2:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Submachine wrote:
Fullback
Cornflakes 20 John Player Blue
Right Wing
Sliced Pan Batch Loaf
Outside Centre
Milk (Two Litre cartons) 6 pack Dutch Gold
Inside Centre
Some lamb cutlets, surloin steak, 5 pound of sausages
Left wing
Cheddar Cheese Easi singles, Dairy Lee triangles
Outhalf
Bag of Apples 6 Pack Scrumpy Jack
Scrumhalf
Head of Cabbage Tin of Beans

Number Eight
Oranges 6 Pack Monster Munch
Openside
Potatoes 6 Pack Meanies
Blindside
Shampoo Lynx Africa shower gel
Second row
Dog biscuits Pigeon feed
Tighthead
Cat food sachets Extra pigeon feed
Hooker
Toothpaste Bottle Creme de Monte (Pernod if unavailable)
Loosehead
Olive Oil Spread Pound of beef dripping


Good list Sub.  I've modified it slightly to take into account my shopping list.

Cheers Fly. It's good to get an insight into how the other half lives. I have edited from a Northside perspective.

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Post by gleesonisgod Tue 25 Nov 2014, 2:23 pm

profitius wrote:
Submachine wrote:
Fullback
Rob Kearney, Felix Jones, Stuart Olding
Right Wing
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden
Outside Centre
Jared Payne, Darren Cave
Inside Centre
Robbie Henshaw, Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey
Left wing
Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Craig Gilroy, Luke Fitzgerald
Outhalf
Johnny Sexton, Ian Madigan, Ian Keatley, Paddy Jackson
Scrumhalf
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Kieran Marmion

Number Eight
Jamie Heaslip, Robin Copeland, Jordi Murphy
Openside
Sean O’Brien, Chris Henry, Tommy O'Donnell, Dominic Ryan
Blindside
Peter O'Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, Robbie Diack
Second row
Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Mick McCarthy
Tighthead
Mike Ross, Martin Moore, Nathan White, Rodney Ah You, Declan Fitzpatrick, Stephen Archer
Hooker
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Duncan Casey,
Loosehead
Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin

In terms of the WC these are the only lads realistically in with a sniff, unless there are injuries.

I'd like to put JJ in there but if he doesn't get starts it ain't gonna happen for him. Should have moved to Connacht IMO.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 25 Nov 2014, 2:30 pm

Submachine wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Submachine wrote:
Fullback
Cornflakes 20 John Player Blue
Right Wing
Sliced Pan Batch Loaf
Outside Centre
Milk (Two Litre cartons) 6 pack Dutch Gold
Inside Centre
Some lamb cutlets, surloin steak, 5 pound of sausages
Left wing
Cheddar Cheese Easi singles, Dairy Lee triangles
Outhalf
Bag of Apples 6 Pack Scrumpy Jack
Scrumhalf
Head of Cabbage Tin of Beans

Number Eight
Oranges 6 Pack Monster Munch


Openside
Potatoes 6 Pack Meanies
Blindside
Shampoo Lynx Africa shower gel
Second row
Dog biscuits Pigeon feed
Tighthead
Cat food sachets Extra pigeon feed
Hooker
Toothpaste Bottle Creme de Monte (Pernod if unavailable)
Loosehead
Olive Oil Spread Pound of beef dripping


Good list Sub.  I've modified it slightly to take into account my shopping list.

Cheers Fly. It's good to get an insight into how the other half lives. I have edited from a Northside perspective.

Laugh Done and dusted, Sub.  I think your diet is more fun if a little heavy on the Pigeon Crap Enticer stuff.

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Post by Irish Londoner Tue 25 Nov 2014, 2:58 pm

Now c'mon fellas, you all know the rules, under NO circumstances are we ever to talk up Ireland's chances of winning any game ever !

I wouldn't put it past them to lose a Probables V Possibles match.

Leprechaun guinness  guinness  guinness  Leprechaun

"Plucky underdogs, happy just to be here, great team spirit, there for the craic, etc." that's the road to go down for us.

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Post by Biltong Tue 25 Nov 2014, 3:55 pm

IL wrote:"Plucky underdogs, happy just to be here, great team spirit, there for the craic, etc." that's the road to go down for us.

Too late for that mate. You wanted to beat the Aussies and Saffers, now you have to take what comes with it. Ireland where to from here? Smiley-laughing001
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Post by thebandwagonsociety Tue 25 Nov 2014, 4:31 pm

Sin é wrote:
Bathman_in_London wrote:From here...  Back to back 6N wins and then progressing the furthest of the 6N teams in the WC I would think. As someone mentioned above keeping Sexton injury free will be key, but with players fit and firing, having one of the best coaches around can only mean success.


I think Paul O'Connell is our most important player. I think Madigan could do a job for Sexton (and I don't think people are giving enough credit to Murray for taking pressure off Sexton, but I don't see anyone close to being able to do a job for Paul O'Connell.

Kiss is a top class coach but I think there are question marks over Simon Easterby as forwards coach.

I'm going to bite. While nobody is close to being a like for like replacement for POC, there are still D Ryan, Henderson and Tuohy(?) out there injured who could come back in. Those being injured makes us appreciate POC that bit more (especially when McCarthy is spotted on the bench ffs!).

People would have said that BOD was the most important player, but get the players up to speed and next thing Henshaw, Payne et al are playing OC and I (personally) am not thinking during the game how we are missing BOD.

But we are a collapsed scrum away from a crocked Ross, Marty is only young and is injured. That position to me is the biggest concern.

And don't get me wrong, I love to POC on the field and many prayers to the man above that there are many games ahead of him at the highest level, but TH is the biggest concern. I'd reckon after hysteria would subside, the squad would cope with injuries to LH, hooker, lock, backrow, scrumhalf, outhalf, centres, wings and full back.

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