Greatest defensive fighters and performances

Afternoon lads,

As someone who has spent a lot of time on here extolling the brilliance of guys such as Pernell Whitaker, Gene Tunney and Eddie Mustafa Muhammad for their ability to make their opponents miss so effortlessly and make them pay at the same time,  I thought there might be a bit of mileage in just offering up this point of debate.

Whitaker and Tunney are commonly cited as serious contenders for the title of greatest defensive fighter ever, along with a couple of other usual suspects such as Floyd Mayweather Jr and Willie Pep. Some used footwork to avoid shots, some used head or upper body movement, some used parries and blocking techniques - come to think of it, some used a mix of all of those methods. We've all got our own preferences to style and aesthetics, so what I want to know is, whose defence more than any other impresses you, be it live or on film? If you wanted to show a new fan examples of great, effective defence, who would you pick?

Also, let's take a look at some great defensive displays where one guy had the other tied up in knots with their ability to evade what was being thrown at them. For a few of the fellas on here who were kicking about in the late eighties, were you ever fans of Miguel 'Happy' Lora? Everyone has their own definition of what makes a 'natural' boxer, but for me Lora is a prime example. A smooth mover with great economy of movement with his feet and fantastic, free upper body movement and top class powers of anticipation. His fight against Daniel Zaragoza is a perfect example of how good his defensive skills were - a real masterclass.

Also, what about Winky Wright's complete dissection of Felix Trinidad? Granted, Tito had slipped past his prime, but it was as if Winky had a protective field around him! As defensive performances go, Wright was about as impregnable as it gets. From Benny Leonard back in the day, to Wilfred Benitez in between, right up to someone like Guillermo Rigondeaux today; who is your favourite defensive magician? What performances have hit you as being particularly brilliant from that point of view? Any fighters who you feel had underrated defence who should be mentioned more in that respect?

Let me know what you think, chaps. Cheers.

Was it Windy who pointed us in the direction of Nicolino Locche who was known as "El Intocable" (The Untouchable)

Quick "Google" shows 136 fights, 117 wins, 4 losses but with a paltry 14 KO's (disgrace)

Windy - sigh - I miss that man's brain.

I know Sean...ONETWOFOREVER seems such an inadequate replacement...but then again, he is a quarter wit!

Yep, Locche was a big favourite of Windy's, Dave. Lead in his boots but a right box of tricks from the waist up and he gave a modern semi-great in Cervantes (a young version of him in fairness, but still) and absolute clowning in their first fight. Him and Napoles were basically the same size (Napoles only moved up to Welter because he couldn't get a title shot elsewhere) and didn't peak too far apart, now that would have been a pretty stunning fight from a skills point of view.

DAVE667 wrote:I know Sean...ONETWOFOREVER seems such an inadequate replacement...but then again, he is a quarter wit!

Haha.


Tbh, I would miss ONETWOFOREVER if he went. Some good popcorn moments have been had thanks to ONETWO.

DAVE667 wrote:I know Sean...ONETWOFOREVER seems such an inadequate replacement...but then again, he is a quarter wit!

More abuse from Mr obeseity 2014.

Why don't you just give it a rest. No one is impressed with your nonsense.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:I know Sean...ONETWOFOREVER seems such an inadequate replacement...but then again, he is a quarter wit!

More abuse from Mr obeseity 2014.

Why don't you just give it a rest. No one is impressed with your nonsense.

I'm not fat (my chest has just slipped a bit)...and I'd give it a rest if you'd learn to stop with all the racist and homophobic bollox. I'm surprised at you though what with you being a proud black man who is clearly gay!

Sorry Chris I don't want to ruin this thread.

This might be a bit left field but I always liked Ivan Calderon.

Locche is my favourite in this category, not the best necessarily, but he turned defence into entertainment. He didn't knock anyone out because he barely threw a punch Dave... Quite happy to just let his opponent punch fresh air all night.

Herol graham turned slipping punches into an art form... I guess artists are lucky that they don't get knocked out when they lose concentration.

And of course James toney... Who Chris was hoping someone could mention, so he didn't have to bring him up himself. Don't worry Chrissy, happy to oblige

Can't remember the opponent but I do remember watched Joel Casamayor putting on a but of a clinic, his movement was sublime that night but I'm damned if I can remember who it was against.

See I can keep it on topic too.............

milkyboy wrote:Locche is my favourite in this category, not the best necessarily, but he turned defence into entertainment. He didn't knock anyone out because he barely threw a punch Dave... Quite happy to just let his opponent punch fresh air all night.

Herol graham turned slipping punches into an art form... I guess artists are lucky that they don't get knocked out when they lose concentration.

And of course James toney... Who Chris was hoping someone could mention, so he didn't have to bring him up himself. Don't worry Chrissy, happy to oblige

Isn't that how he won the WW title, his opponent quit in frustration but of course only Duran is allowed to be castigated for that.

Hey, totally off topic but can't be ar$ed doing my own thread....what about Duran vs Sugar Shane at LW?

DAVE667 wrote:Can't remember the opponent but I do remember watched Joel Casamayor putting on a but of a clinic, his movement was sublime that night but I'm damned if I can remember who it was against.

See I can keep it on topic too.............

Kastidis???

Op ignores the guy who never got stopped during his career in Marlon Starling.....

Once Benitez reflexes went he got slapped about........Sure he was good defensively when young.............

Starling young or old had great defensive skills..........

Picked a right load of stinkers Tunney excepted........

funny thing about Mustafa Muhammad............He fought Snipes at heavy and lost a split.............I think two judges had it 8-2 for Mr Snipes and other one had it for stinker-face 6-4 or something..

Bad judging isn't a thing of the present !!!!!!!!!!!

Certainly didn't ignore Starling, Truss, but no point mentioning every brilliant defensive fighter in the article!

But yep, Marlon had great defence and ring smarts, made even more impressive by the fact that he was never the quickest. I know it's close to your heart, beefster, so I'll ask - how far in to Starling-Honeyghan did you get before you lost count of how many times Starling whacked Lloyd's gum shield clean out of his mouth with perfect counters?

As Leonard said when Starling was moving in for the finish, "You're going to see a real craftsman going to work now," or words to that effect.

milkyboy wrote:And of course James toney... Who Chris was hoping someone could mention, so he didn't have to bring him up himself. Don't worry Chrissy, happy to oblige

You're like the Marquez to my Pacquiao, milky. You've cracked my code and can read me like a book.

Less of the Chrissy, though. That's what Young_Towzer used to call me when implying that I was going to get banged out for holding a widely different opinion, and you know I'm a bit psychologically tender from past instances of physical confrontation with girls (Towzer was a girl, wasn't she?).

Can't go to far wrong with those mentioned really; and the consensus would all have them on any list. Slightly left field given he has been knocked out before but these day's you could have an argument for putting Wladamir in there...whilst his actual defensive ability is questionable the manner in which he has reeled in his offensive weapons to serve as his defence is pretty impressive.

Another name I will throw out, even though it may be a tad early yet, is Vasyl Lomachenko. His performance this past weekend was a sight to behold and I believe we will see plenty more like it in the future....stunning movement and ability to stand almost completely side on and roll away whilst throwing counters.

Bernard Hopkins has to be in any list for me, also Charley Burley although there seems to be little in the way of film of him so much of his prowess you'd have to go off what you read.

You can't talk about the masters without including Archie Moore, whose defence works was coupled with brilliant economy of movement, no need to make a man miss by a mile if you can make the subtlest movement and have him miss by an inch.
Would also give a mention of the attacking defensive masters such as Duran and Tyson- it's a damn sight harder to make your opponent miss when you are constantly moving into his range than it is when you are on the run. There was a sequence of shots in the Barkley fight when Duran slipped and rolled under six or seven punches in row whilst making it look easy.

88Chris05 wrote:Certainly didn't ignore Starling, Truss, but no point mentioning every brilliant defensive fighter in the article!

But yep, Marlon had great defence and ring smarts, made even more impressive by the fact that he was never the quickest. I know it's close to your heart, beefster, so I'll ask - how far in to Starling-Honeyghan did you get before you lost count of how many times Starling whacked Lloyd's gum shield clean out of his mouth with perfect counters?

As Leonard said when Starling was moving in for the finish, "You're going to see a real craftsman going to work now," or words to that effect.

I just think Man and boy...Reflexes or not... This guy was a tough shell to crack.......

Not taking a way from an excellent piece you've written..

If you're looking for something perhaps a bit left field Mark "Too Sharp" Johnson was IMO a fantastically skilled fighter. Perhaps not well matched through his career and struggled as he aged and went up in weight but at flyweight sublime defence, superb head movement.

Moore had a few too many ignominious moments in what were his best years for me to hold him in the same regard as though in the OP.

Locche's performance against Fuji is something to behold, mocking his opponent round after round, standing in one place and just ducking, swaying and goading his way to a retirement victory.

horizontalhero wrote:There was a sequence of shots in the Barkley fight when Duran slipped and rolled under six or seven punches in row whilst making it look easy.

That little sequence in round ten of Duran-Barkley is one of my favourite Duran moments, horizontal. Made even better by the fact that he put the exclamation mark on it at the end with a big right hand counter of his own on the button, too. For one night only that classic Duran swagger and genius came back out of nowhere, years after his last really significant win.

Absolutely love that fight, might take another look at it soon.

Beast, nice shout on Johnson and it's good to give the little guys their due. Have to admit I haven't seen a great deal of his fights, but from what I have seen he had all the skills, and that fight with Alberto Jimenez was a war! Seeing as I brought up Lora in the article - if you like the smaller weight classes and haven't seen the fight yet, check out his (Lora's) fight with Wilfredo Vazquez Sr. A tough, high-tempo and punishing bout but at the same time really skilful and technical, too. A proper Bantamweight classic between two quality operators.

I loved the way he slipped punches in the Hearns fight..

Apparently If you go to 0:58 in the 1st round you can see one he slipped....Poetry in motion !!

Would a load of bollox.......

... He slipped them like starling slipped that molinares shot. Marlon may not have been stopped, but he was knocked clean out... The fact he couldn't remember it happening doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Anticipating your reposte, yes it was after the bell, but starling threw one late as well... He just missed.

After all that, starling was an excellent defensive fighter and a good shout.

88Chris05 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:And of course James toney... Who Chris was hoping someone could mention, so he didn't have to bring him up himself. Don't worry Chrissy, happy to oblige

You're like the Marquez to my Pacquiao, milky. You've cracked my code and can read me like a book.

Less of the Chrissy, though. That's what Young_Towzer used to call me when implying that I was going to get banged out for holding a widely different opinion, and you know I'm a bit psychologically tender from past instances of physical confrontation with girls (Towzer was a girl, wasn't she?).

Don't need to work at Bletchley park to crack your code fella, I've seen more enigmatic breezeblocks

DAVE667 wrote:Hey, totally off topic but can't be ar$ed doing my own thread....what about Duran vs Sugar Shane at LW?

It might not have been a division awash with top class fighters at the time, but Mosley did look a million dollars at 135. Fantastic speed, power, vicious body punching, stamina etc. I think his problem here is that he never really had a great concept of defence and didn't bother moving his head or anticipating what was coming back much even when he was rolling over guys at Lightweight, probably because he didn't really have to. So in essence he'd most likely be having a straight up brawl with Duran - not impossible that he can somehow win that way, but very unlikely in my opinion, especially considering that Shane was a confidence fighter who you could see visibly wilting and getting disheartened when things weren't going his way (like in the Forrest, Winky and Mayweather fights).

Of course, Duran could be a bit slow to get going in fights and with his power Mosley could definitely catch him out early and get in his head like De Jesus did, and in fairness Mosley did box well on the back foot using movement against Oscar (first fight), so he's in with a shout. But I've got to stick with Duran here, winning a UD by taking control late on and leaving Mosley looking a bit bloodied and battered, but still unbowed at the final bell - Shane's chin and powers of recovery were immense. But I do think that Mosley is a head-to-head beast at the weight and gives any Lightweight in history a great fight.

It surprises me that Mosley hardly gets a mention when the best chin debate comes up, even as an old man he could stand up to a beating without so much as blinking.

Agree that Mosley's chin is overlooked at times, Hammersmith, probably because at his peak he was such an extravagant, flashy fighter who went after guys and often knocked them out. Similar to Ray Leonard (although Shane's a cut-price version), I suppose. So good at dishing it out you almost forget that they can take it, too.

Okay, he looked basically knocked out while on his feet at times, but I still find it amazing that Mosley managed to go the full twelve in that first fight against Forrest. He got an absolute pasting and I don't think there were many other Welters of recent times who'd have got through those second and tenth rounds.

Tough guy, for sure.