Saracens Are At It Again

First topic message reminder :

From the Guardian:

"Saracens are leading calls to scrap the Aviva Premiership salary cap, with chief executive Edward Griffiths claiming it “has served its purpose.”
In a statement released on their website on Friday morning, Griffiths also said that believes he has the backing of six other English clubs.
Premiership Rugby introduced a salary cap in 1999. It is currently £5m per club, and will rise by £500,000 for next season, when clubs will also be able to nominate two marquee “excluded players.”
Griffiths’ reported comments come ahead of next year’s World Cup in England, after which many of the world’s top stars are expected to base themselves in Europe on lucrative club deals.
New Zealand star Dan Carter has already agreed a £1.3m per year contract with wealthy French club Racing Metro, while Australia back Adam Ashley-Cooper is to join Bordeaux-Begles.
"The salary cap has served its purpose,” Griffiths said."
“It would be a pity if the world’s top players light up the World Cup on English soil, and then leave to play club rugby in France.
“If the salary cap is left to forbid the required investment, it will kill any hope of growth.
“English clubs must compete in the European Champions Cup against Irish and French sides spending two or three times as much on players. Imagine the likes of Arsenal or Manchester City being asked to compete with Barcelona, Bayern (Munich) and Real Madrid under those circumstances. It would never happen, but it happens in rugby."
“The combination of England hosting the Rugby World Cup in 2015 and Sevens featuring in the Rio Olympic Games in 2016 creates a historic, but fleeting, platform for rugby to grow dramatically."
“It is time to seize that opportunity, to ensure a level playing field in Europe, to build the strongest league in world rugby and to let players earn market-related salaries. We must release the handbrake and step on the accelerator."
“We understand some clubs fear the removal of the salary cap will cause wage inflation, yet, in reality, salaries are already being driven by the French clubs."
“We can either sit back and become a ’lowest common denominator’ league, or we can leap forward.”

So in other words, huzzah for Saracens, Bath, Northampton, Tigers, Wasps and Quins (I assume these are the six in favour) and a large foxtrot oscar to the rest of English rugby.

SecretFly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:
It was not so difficult to rally support for the new Euro Rugby proposal as it really was a modification to an existing mechanism.   Then even easier when things became an us-versus-them for many of the parties involved.   It will be much harder to engage support to lead English Rugby into the unknown, especially with a lot of rational support within Rugby already sceptical.

I'd disagree with that one entirely Doc - but that's a story for the past.

The future for England itself is the PRL as an overseeing body.  I've been told its objective is to generate income for Clubs.  So far so reasonable and it doesn't apologise for it and shouldn't.  That's a reasonable goal in a professional sporting organisation.
And by how I've seen many Club guys and PRL head talk in the last year or so, I'm convinced the ERCC shenanigans were just the first step in gaining 'parity' with considered rivals in Europe.  It's absolutely against the logic PRL used in their arguments about HEC to now say the same logic will not inform their furture goals of gaining more 'parity' with European rivals - namely the French.  

The PRL will not play ball with one proverbial hand tied behind their back.  They simply won't and the more influencial people in PRL, of which I'm sure Griffith is but one, will begin outlining the detailed 'reasoning' to their less enthusiastic comrades.  And in time, they'll win the argument, because they fill the argument with talk of potential for growth throughout the entire league, they'll explain the trickle down effect of more income generated at the top.  They'll persuade, and they'll win.

I have a horrible feeling you're right.

Saracens have just released a statement saying that anyone buying tickets for the Munster game from them with an Irish accent 'will be treated with suspicion'.

Beside the borderline racist overtones that has*, I thought with the way Ed Griffiths bangs on about the 'free market' he'd happily sell his tickets to the highest bidder?

*I've heard of not sending tickets to addresses outside a certain area, fair enough. But ticket sales based on accents is highly questionable. Rugby fans from Ireland resident in London may have cause to question the legality of such a practice if other fans with the right accent are favoured ahead of them.

I know someone in Northern Ireland who will be busy in that case

Lived here 16 years but still has a London accent

Agreed what a tasteless obnoxious pain in the arse of a club

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30559910

So Sale and Saints out from supporting the cap abolishment. So far it seems only Bath want it scrapped and Chiefs are happy for it to be significantly increased (surprising).

Notch wrote:Saracens have just released a statement saying that anyone buying tickets for the Munster game from them with an Irish accent 'will be treated with suspicion'.

Beside the borderline racist overtones that has*, I thought with the way Ed Griffiths bangs on about the 'free market' he'd happily sell his tickets to the highest bidder?

*I've heard of not sending tickets to addresses outside a certain area, fair enough. But ticket sales based on accents is highly questionable. Rugby fans from Ireland resident in London may have cause to question the legality of such a practice if other fans with the right accent are favoured ahead of them.

Here's the link - http://www.saracens.com/saracens-buy-now-for-munster/

"From today until Tuesday, tickets will only be available to Saracens season-ticket holders seeking extras or to anybody who has bought tickets to two or more matches at Allianz Park this season. You must login to gain access to the choose your seat map. If you fall into either category, please click here and secure your seats before the red mist descends at 17h00 on Tuesday 22 December. Alternatively, the ticket office at the CME Group Gate (B) will be open for business before and after the Premiership match against London Welsh on Saturday 20 December.

Bona fide Saracens supporters who have neither bought a season-ticket nor purchased tickets for two or more matches at Allianz Park so far this season may apply for tickets by calling the Supporter Services office at 0203 675 7200, leaving a message outside office hours, and their request will be considered. Callers with an Irish accent will be treated with suspicion."

Hammer, tigers are happy for it to stay.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/30559910

Yep, they had been mentioned in the previous Mail article about how they're right on the limit of what they can afford (which makes sense since they're on a small profit.

PenfroPete wrote:

Notch wrote:Saracens have just released a statement saying that anyone buying tickets for the Munster game from them with an Irish accent 'will be treated with suspicion'.

Beside the borderline racist overtones that has*, I thought with the way Ed Griffiths bangs on about the 'free market' he'd happily sell his tickets to the highest bidder?

*I've heard of not sending tickets to addresses outside a certain area, fair enough. But ticket sales based on accents is highly questionable. Rugby fans from Ireland resident in London may have cause to question the legality of such a practice if other fans with the right accent are favoured ahead of them.

Here's the link - http://www.saracens.com/saracens-buy-now-for-munster/

"From today until Tuesday, tickets will only be available to Saracens season-ticket holders seeking extras or to anybody who has bought tickets to two or more matches at Allianz Park this season. You must login to gain access to the choose your seat map. If you fall into either category, please click here and secure your seats before the red mist descends at 17h00 on Tuesday 22 December. Alternatively, the ticket office at the CME Group Gate (B) will be open for business before and after the Premiership match against London Welsh on Saturday 20 December.

Bona fide Saracens supporters who have neither bought a season-ticket nor purchased tickets for two or more matches at Allianz Park so far this season may apply for tickets by calling the Supporter Services office at 0203 675 7200, leaving a message outside office hours, and their request will be considered. Callers with an Irish accent will be treated with suspicion."

Mate, clearly what is written there is dumb.  Seems like an attempt at humour.  However, just for a little context, it seems more respectful if the first paragraph from their web site is included.  Respectful, but still dumb.

Saracens supporters planning to attend the home match against Munster next month must buy their tickets before 17h00 on Tuesday 23 December.

The crucial European Champions Cup fixture will be played at Allianz Park on Saturday 17 January, kick-off 13h00… and remaining tickets will go on general sale next week.

“Munster are probably the best supported club in Europe,” said a Supporter Service spokesman. “They have already been allocated their 1,000 tickets (10% of the total available) as required by the competition regulations, and any spare tickets will be quickly snapped up on general sale by members of the Munster Red Army. They will all be made to feel most welcome at what we consider to be the most friendly sports stadium in Europe but, with respect to our Irish friends, we would rather see every available seat filled by Saracens supporters.”

From today until Tuesday, tickets will only be available to Saracens season-ticket holders seeking extras or to anybody who has bought tickets to two or more matches at Allianz Park this season. You must login to gain access to the choose your seat map. If you fall into either category, please click here and secure your seats before the red mist descends at 17h00 on Tuesday 22 December. Alternatively, the ticket office at the CME Group Gate (B) will be open for business before and after the Premiership match against London Welsh on Saturday 20 December.

Bona fide Saracens supporters who have neither bought a season-ticket nor purchased tickets for two or more matches at Allianz Park so far this season may apply for tickets by calling the Supporter Services office at 0203 675 7200, leaving a message outside office hours, and their request will be considered. Callers with an Irish accent will be treated with suspicion.

Getting past all this, it now certainly seems that Saracens are pretty isolated in the Premiership as regards the salary cap.  Probably Bath and Bruce Craig are with them, but it does not seem any other club is in agreement.  Six or seven other clubs is wishful thinking.  It was a telltale sign when the PRL issued the statement regarding the salary cap.

doctor_grey wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:

Notch wrote:Saracens have just released a statement saying that anyone buying tickets for the Munster game from them with an Irish accent 'will be treated with suspicion'.

Beside the borderline racist overtones that has*, I thought with the way Ed Griffiths bangs on about the 'free market' he'd happily sell his tickets to the highest bidder?

*I've heard of not sending tickets to addresses outside a certain area, fair enough. But ticket sales based on accents is highly questionable. Rugby fans from Ireland resident in London may have cause to question the legality of such a practice if other fans with the right accent are favoured ahead of them.

Here's the link - http://www.saracens.com/saracens-buy-now-for-munster/

"From today until Tuesday, tickets will only be available to Saracens season-ticket holders seeking extras or to anybody who has bought tickets to two or more matches at Allianz Park this season. You must login to gain access to the choose your seat map. If you fall into either category, please click here and secure your seats before the red mist descends at 17h00 on Tuesday 22 December. Alternatively, the ticket office at the CME Group Gate (B) will be open for business before and after the Premiership match against London Welsh on Saturday 20 December.

Bona fide Saracens supporters who have neither bought a season-ticket nor purchased tickets for two or more matches at Allianz Park so far this season may apply for tickets by calling the Supporter Services office at 0203 675 7200, leaving a message outside office hours, and their request will be considered. Callers with an Irish accent will be treated with suspicion."

Mate, clearly what is written there is dumb.  Seems like an attempt at humour.  However, just for a little context, it seems more respectful if the first paragraph from their web site is included.  Respectful, but still dumb.

Saracens supporters planning to attend the home match against Munster next month must buy their tickets before 17h00 on Tuesday 23 December.

The crucial European Champions Cup fixture will be played at Allianz Park on Saturday 17 January, kick-off 13h00… and remaining tickets will go on general sale next week.

“Munster are probably the best supported club in Europe,” said a Supporter Service spokesman. “They have already been allocated their 1,000 tickets (10% of the total available) as required by the competition regulations, and any spare tickets will be quickly snapped up on general sale by members of the Munster Red Army. They will all be made to feel most welcome at what we consider to be the most friendly sports stadium in Europe but, with respect to our Irish friends, we would rather see every available seat filled by Saracens supporters.”

From today until Tuesday, tickets will only be available to Saracens season-ticket holders seeking extras or to anybody who has bought tickets to two or more matches at Allianz Park this season. You must login to gain access to the choose your seat map. If you fall into either category, please click here and secure your seats before the red mist descends at 17h00 on Tuesday 22 December. Alternatively, the ticket office at the CME Group Gate (B) will be open for business before and after the Premiership match against London Welsh on Saturday 20 December.

Bona fide Saracens supporters who have neither bought a season-ticket nor purchased tickets for two or more matches at Allianz Park so far this season may apply for tickets by calling the Supporter Services office at 0203 675 7200, leaving a message outside office hours, and their request will be considered. Callers with an Irish accent will be treated with suspicion.

Getting past all this, it now certainly seems that Saracens are pretty isolated in the Premiership as regards the salary cap.  Probably Bath and Bruce Craig are with them, but it does not seem any other club is in agreement.  Six or seven other clubs is wishful thinking.  It was a telltale sign when the PRL issued the statement regarding the salary cap.

Saracens do humour? From reaction on Munsterfans, a couple of second generation Munster supporters (born in England) and some long term Irish living in England are upset by this as it is a reminder of how in the past having an Irish accent in England was not a good thing.

Ed Griffths has nothing but contempt for Munster (and all Irish Provinces) and refers to Munster as the 'Red Plague'. It seems he is terrified that Saracens will be embarrassed the same way Harlequins were over the tickets with single tickets only being issued to Munster.

Sin é wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:

Notch wrote:Saracens have just released a statement saying that anyone buying tickets for the Munster game from them with an Irish accent 'will be treated with suspicion'.

Beside the borderline racist overtones that has*, I thought with the way Ed Griffiths bangs on about the 'free market' he'd happily sell his tickets to the highest bidder?

*I've heard of not sending tickets to addresses outside a certain area, fair enough. But ticket sales based on accents is highly questionable. Rugby fans from Ireland resident in London may have cause to question the legality of such a practice if other fans with the right accent are favoured ahead of them.

Here's the link - http://www.saracens.com/saracens-buy-now-for-munster/

"From today until Tuesday, tickets will only be available to Saracens season-ticket holders seeking extras or to anybody who has bought tickets to two or more matches at Allianz Park this season. You must login to gain access to the choose your seat map. If you fall into either category, please click here and secure your seats before the red mist descends at 17h00 on Tuesday 22 December. Alternatively, the ticket office at the CME Group Gate (B) will be open for business before and after the Premiership match against London Welsh on Saturday 20 December.

Bona fide Saracens supporters who have neither bought a season-ticket nor purchased tickets for two or more matches at Allianz Park so far this season may apply for tickets by calling the Supporter Services office at 0203 675 7200, leaving a message outside office hours, and their request will be considered. Callers with an Irish accent will be treated with suspicion."

Mate, clearly what is written there is dumb.  Seems like an attempt at humour.  However, just for a little context, it seems more respectful if the first paragraph from their web site is included.  Respectful, but still dumb.

Saracens supporters planning to attend the home match against Munster next month must buy their tickets before 17h00 on Tuesday 23 December.

The crucial European Champions Cup fixture will be played at Allianz Park on Saturday 17 January, kick-off 13h00… and remaining tickets will go on general sale next week.

“Munster are probably the best supported club in Europe,” said a Supporter Service spokesman. “They have already been allocated their 1,000 tickets (10% of the total available) as required by the competition regulations, and any spare tickets will be quickly snapped up on general sale by members of the Munster Red Army. They will all be made to feel most welcome at what we consider to be the most friendly sports stadium in Europe but, with respect to our Irish friends, we would rather see every available seat filled by Saracens supporters.”

From today until Tuesday, tickets will only be available to Saracens season-ticket holders seeking extras or to anybody who has bought tickets to two or more matches at Allianz Park this season. You must login to gain access to the choose your seat map. If you fall into either category, please click here and secure your seats before the red mist descends at 17h00 on Tuesday 22 December. Alternatively, the ticket office at the CME Group Gate (B) will be open for business before and after the Premiership match against London Welsh on Saturday 20 December.

Bona fide Saracens supporters who have neither bought a season-ticket nor purchased tickets for two or more matches at Allianz Park so far this season may apply for tickets by calling the Supporter Services office at 0203 675 7200, leaving a message outside office hours, and their request will be considered. Callers with an Irish accent will be treated with suspicion.

Getting past all this, it now certainly seems that Saracens are pretty isolated in the Premiership as regards the salary cap.  Probably Bath and Bruce Craig are with them, but it does not seem any other club is in agreement.  Six or seven other clubs is wishful thinking.  It was a telltale sign when the PRL issued the statement regarding the salary cap.

Saracens do humour? From reaction on Munsterfans, a couple of second generation Munster supporters (born in England) and some long term Irish living in England are upset by this as it is a reminder of how in the past having an Irish accent in England was not a good thing.

Ed Griffths has nothing but contempt for Munster (and all Irish Provinces) and refers to Munster as the 'Red Plague'. It seems he is terrified that Saracens will be embarrassed the same way Harlequins were over the tickets with single tickets only being issued to Munster.

Of course Saracens do humour.  Almost every day.  
They just indicated they had six or seven other Premierships clubs with them in calling for an end to the salary cap.  That must have been a joke.
Right??????

Sin é wrote:From the Sarries website (Champs Cup game v Munster): Callers with an Irish accent will be treated with suspicion.

I'm going to phone Sarries this morning:

"'Bout ye - are ye alright big mon, I wanne buy a ween  o' tuckets for thon Saraceens game fernenst Monstaar, culd ye get usun's tuckets near til a baaar as me and me muckers love the Guinness so we do....fufty quid each ! Jeezus, do think I came up the Foyle in a bubble. Twenny fur the end you say, aye that's better. Good man yersel, thon's grand! See ye lataar".

On a more serious note, I live in North London and have bought tickets from Saracens before (the shame!) so any Munstermen out there who need a ticket please p.m.

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote: one player in particular is treated like he is a god, the management and coaches continue to bow to his supposed greatness

you really have fallen out of love with young Owen.

Really? You think so?

Young Owen is an decent rugby player when on form and has helped Saracens win many games, he's also done quite well for England when in form.

Sounds like he did very well vs London Welsh from match reports which is good.



sin e do you believe that Edward Griffiths is Saracens? Can one man completely represent the feelings of a club? Yes he's one of the top representatives but it doesn't mean the ordinary person supports his views.

Fat lady - I was completely against that - I and some others told him too.
PA vs Munster - didn't go to that game but probably wouldn't approve
Treatment of Irish voices - can't say I agree but can understand why he's doing it (away fans always get the rough end of the stick in terms of allocation - Irish regions are guilty of this also).

Salary cap - I want it raised but certainly not abolished. Abolished is ridiculous.

I don't have the dislike/hatred of Edward that others have because he has done quite a few good things for the club despite his obvious flaws.

Reading the full text as quoted by Doc it seems that tickets are on general sale from tomorrow at 5pm.. Are Sarries likely to sell all of their 9000 before then?

I agree with the sentiment that it is a poorly judged attempt at humour.

I am not sure that it is meant to be humorous to be honest. I think it's just a fair warning to Irish fans....

Edward doesn't really understand what makes something humorous or not. I don't think he's going to ever have a career being a stand up comedian.

One thing he is good though is whipping up a debate and creating news - he could have a successful career as a journalist that's for sure!

American Accent:  "Yeah, I was cellphonin' in about them tickets for that English American Football show you got on between the Sorocence and the Monsters?  To tell you the truth, never seen me a version of the English version of American football.  They tell me they do it all without helmets and endless commercial breaks?  So I tell my wife, 'I got to see them folks in action'.  I'm a Mormon so I'd like 60 tickets for me, myself, Irene and the 57 kids."

Japanese Accent: "Koneechee Wah.  Whah you goh in line of tickets for Rugby game?  Me and delegates from new Japanese franchise wanna look see at players you goh thah you noh want that maybe we buy for big dollar to play for us?  But first we wanna look see at game....for free.  20 Complementary Tickets pleese - we goh da money, you goh the dross you might want to sell us.  We look see............ for free"

English Accent: "Tell you what, I was shored up by your brave and spirited desire to squeeze out as many of those Irish sorts as possible.  Indeed, so moved was I that I, a steadfast Harlequins chap, rallied a bunch of my golf buddies and we've decided to crack round on our Smarts to see what assistance we might provide you as a fellow AP crusader.  It's been tough to turn a few of the chaps, I won't deny it; but overall, I think we've managed to get a small army to fill the spaces in danger of being filled by the potato munchers from Rainville out there on the western fringes of nothing.  So tell you what, be a good sort and sent 1,600 tickets our way.  We'll do the rest and be sure to wear Saracens kit on the day.  We must stand together against the French and Irish heathens in Europe.  We salute your indefatigability on this issue."

That's another 1680 tickets for the Munster lads

Or you could just get BJ Botha or CJ Stander to order them ....

Sounds like it's going to be a sell out one way or another then!!

Bit of a problem for a rugby loving Irishman living in North London who fancies buying a Season Ticket

Where are all the people who were arguing with me at the start of the season when I said that the power hungry clubs in England will not stop at getting their own way with Europe ? When I mentioned that they would not stop, and the next thing would be the salary cap I was tarred and feathered on here, but who is looking silly now ? I knew this would happen sooner rather than later, European rugby has been ruined, the next thing they will do is ruin their own game, look how the salaries in France are affecting the national side, it is not working out well for them is it ?

LD, I think the cap will inevitably rise so, for what it's worth. I'd say you were right on that one. As a Worcester supporter this worries me greatly and as an England supporter I hope that this is not to the detriment of the national game. I guess AP clubs will need higher caps purely to hold on to our better English players rather than to compete with the French for the likes of Carter et al.

secretfly your attempt at humour seems to be as effective as Edward Griffiths. Have you been taking tips off him?

Geoff I agree with that, does seem like a foolish thing to do. Is it even legal to potentially discriminate/refuse to serve someone based on their nationality or accent?

stub wrote:LD, I think the cap will inevitably rise so, for what it's worth. I'd say you were right on that one. As a Worcester supporter this worries me greatly and as an England supporter I hope that this is not to the detriment of the national game. I guess AP clubs will need higher caps purely to hold on to our better English players let alone to compete with the French for the likes of Carter et al.

There you go. The motion becomes perpetual. If the motion gets enough impetus, the momentum can't be stopped.
Yes, that's the very point - the ending of salary caps becomes inevitable as you struggle not just to buy the 'special' players coming onto the market, but you also struggle to hold onto your own.
That's why some of us never liked the future designed by money men who talk constant profit growth rather than the game - they'll drive the change whether clubs instinctively want to follow or not. Clubs must follow and accept the new way, merely to TRY to survive. But by following and accepting, many club/regions/Provinces won't survive. Catch 22.

beshocked wrote:secretfly your attempt at humour seems to be as effective as Edward Griffiths. Have you been taking tips off him?

That's a shame Beshocked.    But then, your funny bone always seems to have been locked somewhere in a Swiss bank vault and you've forgotten the 69 digit code.

LordDowlais wrote:Where are all the people who were arguing with me at the start of the season when I said that the power hungry clubs in England will not stop at getting their own way with Europe ? When I mentioned that they would not stop, and the next thing would be the salary cap I was tarred and feathered on here, but who is looking silly now ? I knew this would happen sooner rather than later, European rugby has been ruined, the next thing they will do is ruin their own game, look how the salaries in France are affecting the national side, it is not working out well for them is it ?

It's not as if rugby is well run in the likes of Scotland,Wales or Italy is it?

Instead of saying "I told you so" - look closer to home at your own problems. Wales (mainly the WRU) have ruined rugby in Wales through their own wranglings of greed and poor management.

WRU's desire to squeeze extra money out of the Welsh public with an extra test has damaged the competitiveness of the regions (a failed experiment itself).

The creation of the regions has led to a destruction in the identity of Welsh clubs. The efforts to create a strong regional identity have been hampered by the WRU - not putting in a policy to make players who want to play for Wales have to play in Wales. Also that extra test already mentioned which hurt the competitiveness of the regions.

Sure the Welsh public enjoy the national side currently but the WRU have not protected the producers of the welsh players well enough (the regions).

How can a region grow in popularity when their best players are playing mostly in England and France?

Look at a nation like NZ who have managed to protect their assets for so long.

People like you like to blame others for your own failings.

I never claim that the English clubs are perfect they are not but they could be run worse and their relationship with their rugby union could be worse.

beshocked wrote:
How can a region grow in popularity when their best players are playing mostly in England and France?

By paying them 1.3 million each to either come home to Wales or to stay in Wales?

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:
How can a region grow in popularity when their best players are playing mostly in England and France?

By paying them 1.3 million each to either come home to Wales or to stay in Wales?

Do they have the capabilities?

My point is that Wales allowed the horse to bolt - instead of blaming themselves for opening the gate they are blaming the new owners of the players.

The blame game is a popular one. It's easier to blame the nefarious English clubs instead of looking at the damage done by yourselves.

If a club is better run they will perform better - look at Glasgow and Exeter for example.

Some clubs like to use the disparity in the salary cap for their failings instead of their own failings like London Welsh.

Would London Welsh really have been humped in every single game if they hadn't sacked most of their players who got them promotion?

To be fair I should add that Saracens have blamed others instead of looking at their own faults too. E.g. blaming the salary cap, blaming the ref, TMO.

I don't want those excuses - I want them to stop blaming others and sort out things closer to home. I said that in my first post - Edward needs to focus on other things before talking about the salary cap!

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:
How can a region grow in popularity when their best players are playing mostly in England and France?

By paying them 1.3 million each to either come home to Wales or to stay in Wales?

Do they have the capabilities?

My point is that Wales allowed the horse to bolt - instead of blaming themselves for opening the gate they are blaming the new owners of the players.

The blame game is a popular one. It's easier to blame the nefarious English clubs instead of looking at the damage done by yourselves.

If a club is better run they will perform better - look at Glasgow and Exeter for example.

Some clubs like to use the disparity in the salary cap for their failings instead of their own failings like London Welsh.

Would London Welsh really have been humped in every single game if they hadn't sacked most of their players who got them promotion?

No, it's easier blaming the French , and perhaps England's blindness to the inequality of the French 'virtual cappless' system when they were talking about the lack of 'meritocracy' in Europe.  
PRL criticised the 'bad' Pro12 and turned a blind eye to the bigger issue - French Top14 runaway salaries and their ability to suck up players from elsewhere, thus rubberstamping 'advantages' based on lots of other things besides 'merit'.

So no, Beshocked.  Why didn't we all just blame the nefarious French?  

Nope, nothing doing there because as I always say, English rugby wanted to turn a blind eye to the French and their cappless way because that's where the PRL leadership wants to go next.  So don't blame Griffiths for being a big mouth 'unfunny' man.  He's just a single cog in the PRL clock - and that clock is determined to follow the French.

Who is blaming the English for anything ? All I am saying is, the English clubs and the PRL got their way in the European debacle, I said it would not stop there, I mentioned salary caps would be the next thing and I was tarred and feathered, what makes you think that the salary cap issue will be where they stop, they have tasted the power and they will just keep wanting more, the six nations will be next, they will be calling to move it because it disrupts the season.

The one thing that does worry me though is, it is enough of a worry that the French clubs are always circling around our best players, with no salary cap in England then we will have another 12 teams wanting our best players, before the dual contracts were announced our regions couldn't even compete with Bristol FFS.

So LD - I take it you think the salary cap will be scrapped completely? I just can't see that and I hope that you're wrong.

secretfly I am not sure I have ever heard the Pro12 blaming the French. Most of the criticism has been focussed at the English. I agree - it's wrong to blame the English solely but that's the way it's been.

beshocked wrote:secretfly I am not sure I have ever heard the Pro12 blaming the French. Most of the criticism has been focussed at the English. I agree - it's wrong to blame the English solely but that's the way it's been.

When, where ? I have not seen anybody blaming the English for anything as regards to losing players, the French always get it with both barrels, from everyone.

One or two clubs want to do away with the salary cap.  The rest of the league want to keep it. The ones that want to do away with it are currently under investigation for breaking the cap.

This whole PRL want to do away with the cap is simply not true. The PRL is made up of the AP clubs (pretty much) and these turkeys aren't voting for Christmas.

If a club starts paying the referee, will those payments come out of their salary cap. It will effectively be an additional contracted player on the field during the game.

LordDowlais wrote: I said it would not stop there, I mentioned salary caps would be the next thing and I was tarred and feathered,

You were tarred and feathered, if you want to call it that, because of your constant assertion that they would do away with the cap completely. As was pointed out to you then (and indeed seems to have been reinforced by this rubbish) only Saracens and Bath are interested in this. The rest either can't afford it or want a sustainable business model.

LordDowlais wrote:the six nations will be next, they will be calling to move it because it disrupts the season.

Oh, this is your new baseless claim is it? You forget to end it with 'trust me, it will happen'.

LordDowlais wrote:Who is blaming the English for anything ? All I am saying is, the English clubs and the PRL got their way in the European debacle, I said it would not stop there, I mentioned salary caps would be the next thing and I was tarred and feathered, what makes you think that the salary cap issue will be where they stop, they have tasted the power and they will just keep wanting more, the six nations will be next, they will be calling to move it because it disrupts the season.

The one thing that does worry me though is, it is enough of a worry that the French clubs are always circling around our best players, with no salary cap in England then we will have another 12 teams wanting our best players, before the dual contracts were announced our regions couldn't even compete with Bristol FFS.

I'm blaming the English. They started the whole European debacle. When the French dumped them, they used the Welsh with offers to compete with the English clubs to create more problems. They then got BT Sports to bribe the Scots and Welsh.

The new competition is not any better than it was as the Heineken Cup (and is probably poorer). It won't be long now before the whole thing implodes because the clubs will start fighting with each other. Toulon are claiming that Clermont are behind Armitage getting banned (presumably because the acting Director General of the Champs Cup (the fellow rattling around on his own in ERCC Towers in Switzerland) is an ex-CEO/Chairman of Clermont.

I also suspect that BT Sports are behind the removal of the salary cap. They want 'stars' in the Aviva Premiership.

lorddowlais you must have missed a lot of posts! English took a lot of the flack whilst the French weren't criticised much at all.


sin e

Just the English who started the whole european debacle? It was the English and French who both felt that the Pro12 clubs had too much of a free ride.

The Irish wanted to keep the old HC because it was a system that benefitted them. Same with the rest of the Pro12.

As for the French dumping the English clubs that's not true. Toulon threw their toys out of the pram temporarily but most of the French clubs want to continue support the English clubs - bit of a wobble due to the French rugby union but it worked out in the end.

Some rubbish was spouted about the English being isolated but they weren't.

As for the new competition being better - we don't know yet. Also depends what you mean by better.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Oh, this is your new baseless claim is it? You forget to end it with 'trust me, it will happen'

You said this about the salary cap, and look what is happening now.

Lorddowlais Nigel Wray and Edward Griffiths haven't exactly kept quiet on wanting to get rid of the salary cap. As Sam says though - they'll need backing from more clubs. Edward claims to have backing from clubs to give him a majority- he clearly doesn't. Looks like even Bath don't back him.

Ah, the good old days

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/wray-we-must-not-raise-the-salary-cap-6312962.html

And for those claiming Nostradamus status...

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/365660/Cap-of-cheer-for-English-hopes

Nothing new. Saracens have been saying this for years.

Yep Hammerofthunor I agree. I thought I would add more to back up your point.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/moneyball-european-failures-raise-issue-785228

Another separate time in 2012.



Nigel Wray said it earlier this year too twice.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/14861/axe-cap-or-risk-losing-out-on-tv-bonanza-says-nigel-wray/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-radio-and-tv-27130971



Edward Griffiths in 2012 - http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/rugby_union/4328631/Saracens-CEO-Edward-Griffiths-warns-of-English-rugby-crisis-over-salary-cap.html

LordDowlais wrote:

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Oh, this is your new baseless claim is it? You forget to end it with 'trust me, it will happen'

You said this about the salary cap, and look what is happening now.

I am looking at what is happening now. The problem is that you don't seem to be. What is happening now is one person sprouting nonsense about having wide backing for his desire to scrap the cap. That's it. This has been shown to be Love sacks (as pretty much everyone expected) and quite possibly because he knew his club were on the verge of being investigated.

Usually whenever Griffiths says something the reaction on here is that he's just talking out of his arse or looking to stir things up. Yet when he says something that can be used as an attack on the PRL he's suddenly a reliable source. Strange that. He must also be right about the Irish spending 3x what the English clubs do, those rich bastards.

Ireland don't have a salary cap anyway so hypothetically the Irish can spend 3 x more than English clubs do.

Correct, Ireland don't have a salary cap. They, as well as the provinces just have to make sure that they don't spend more than they earn in the year.

Seems like common sense really.

What are the unused profits at Bath and Saracens like? I didn't think they were kicking out millions of pounds in spare cash that they could start spending on players if allowed.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Correct, Ireland don't have a salary cap.  They, as well as the provinces just have to make sure that they don't spend more than they earn in the year.

Seems like common sense really.

What are the unused profits at Bath and Saracens like? I didn't think they were kicking out millions of pounds in spare cash that they could start spending on players if allowed.

Well they don't spend more than they earn combined with what their union gives that branch from their international revenues. Saracens don't spend more than what their owner is willing to 'loan' them.

Just out of interest are there any figures available as to what the Irish teams spend and, for that matter, what each team across the nations spends? Before anyone reminds me I do realise that Saracens and Bath are under investigation for breaking the cap.

'Apparently' they spend about the same as the English cap but there's no easily available figures that I've seen. Nor do I know what 'about' means.

SecretFly wrote:American Accent:  "Yeah, I was cellphonin' in about them tickets for that English American Football show you got on between the Sorocence and the Monsters?  To tell you the truth, never seen me a version of the English version of American football.  They tell me they do it all without helmets and endless commercial breaks?  So I tell my wife, 'I got to see them folks in action'.  I'm a Mormon so I'd like 60 tickets for me, myself, Irene and the 57 kids."

Japanese Accent: "Koneechee Wah.  Whah you goh in line of tickets for Rugby game?  Me and delegates from new Japanese franchise wanna look see at players you goh thah you noh want that maybe we buy for big dollar to play for us?  But first we wanna look see at game....for free.  20 Complementary Tickets pleese - we goh da money, you goh the dross you might want to sell us.  We look see............ for free"

English Accent: "Tell you what, I was shored up by your brave and spirited desire to squeeze out as many of those Irish sorts as possible.  Indeed, so moved was I that I, a steadfast Harlequins chap, rallied a bunch of my golf buddies and we've decided to crack round on our Smarts to see what assistance we might provide you as a fellow AP crusader.  It's been tough to turn a few of the chaps, I won't deny it; but overall, I think we've managed to get a small army to fill the spaces in danger of being filled by the potato munchers from Rainville out there on the western fringes of nothing.  So tell you what, be a good sort and sent 1,600 tickets our way.  We'll do the rest and be sure to wear Saracens kit on the day.  We must stand together against the French and Irish heathens in Europe.  We salute your indefatigability on this issue."

That's another 1680 tickets for the Munster lads

I'm an English/American/Japanese Mormon businessman from Twickenham and I find that racist!!

LordDowlais wrote:Where are all the people who were arguing with me at the start of the season when I said that the power hungry clubs in England will not stop at getting their own way with Europe ? When I mentioned that they would not stop, and the next thing would be the salary cap I was tarred and feathered on here, but who is looking silly now ? I knew this would happen sooner rather than later, European rugby has been ruined, the next thing they will do is ruin their own game, look how the salaries in France are affecting the national side, it is not working out well for them is it ?

I agreed with you then. Its the obvious next move.

stub wrote:Just out of interest are there any figures available as to what the Irish teams spend and, for that matter, what each team across the nations spends? Before anyone reminds me I do realise that Saracens and Bath are under investigation for breaking the cap.

The numbers are out there for Glasgow and Edinburgh and its a bit less than a premiership team I believe. But its hard to compare because of the very different way of financing.

TJ wrote:

stub wrote:Just out of interest are there any figures available as to what the Irish teams spend and, for that matter, what each team across the nations spends? Before anyone reminds me I do realise that Saracens and Bath are under investigation for breaking the cap.

The numbers are out there for Glasgow and Edinburgh and its a bit less than a premiership team I believe.  But its hard to compare because of the very different way of financing.  

Exactly what I was going to say about comparing English and Irish figures. I know even less about the SRU system than I do about the IRFU but the little I know makes meaningful comparisons really difficult.

If you're going to include the full value of a player's central contract in the clubs/provinces overall wage bill you simply have to include EPS payments paid to English players for those teams*. Without those payments the salary cap would have to increase, or squads weaken, to accommodate the extra money EPS players would ask from their clubs. How much of an Irish player's CC should be allocated as provincial wage and how much as international payments? We need much more information than I think we have to make any definitive claims. I'm certainly not about to take what Griffiths says as truth.

*So it looks to be £15k + win bonus for the 23 man squad. Any money paid to people not in the match day squad but still in the wider EPS squad? £1k of the £15k payout is a 'training fee' so presumably this at least goes to the rest?