Welsh depth

by Guest Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:09 am

With all the talk about Englands strength in depth, I thought it would be an opportunity to discuss where Wales are in terms of depth.

Looseheads - Jenkins, James, Evans, Smith, Bevington
Hookers - Hibbard, Owens, Baldwin, Dacey, Phillips
Tightheads - Lee, Jarvis?, Andrews

Second row - Ball, AWJ, Charteris, Evans

Blindside - Lydiate, King, Shingler, Turnbull
Openside - Warburton, Tipuric, Navidi
8 - Faletau, Baker

Scrumhalf - Webb, Davies, Phillips
Flyhalf - Biggar, Priestland, Hook, Anscombe

Centres - Roberts, Davies, Williams, Allen

Wings - North, Cuthbert, Amos

Fullback - Halfpenny, Williams

Which players from the regions (or anywhere else) need to be more involved to help us develop depth in areas we're lacking?

by offload Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:38 am

Depth is a relative term. We're swimming in the shallow end mate.

by Poorfour Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:21 am

The critical question is where on that list does the quality drop markedly below their English equivalents? We can argue the toss about whose first choice is better, but the challenge in an RWC is coping with the loss of a few key players.

A rough attempt of the equivalent list for England would be:

Loosehead: Corbisiero, Marler, Mako, Mullan
Hooker: Hartley, Youngs, Webber... then it gets a bit sketchier. Gray may technically be the next cab off the rank (courtesy of his 10 minute appearance as a sub in NZ), but George, Ward and possibly Cowan-Dickie have a case
Tighthead: Cole, Wilson, Thomas, Brookes

Locks: Launchbury, Lawes, Attwood, Parling, Kruis, Kitchener maybe Itoje

Blindside: Wood, Haskell, Croft, Clark
Openside: Robshaw ... erm ... one of the other Robshaws ... erm ... Armitage, Kvesic ... (in reality, Wood or Haskell would probably move across)
No 8: Billy, Morgan, Easter, possibly Kvesic or Armitage (or one of the Robshaws, if you ~~live in the same magical land as~~ believe SCW.)

Scrum half: Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth, Dickson
Fly half: Ford, Farrell, Myler, Cipriani

IC: Burrell, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Eastmond, Farrell
OC: Joseph, Tuilagi, then probably Burrell or Twelvetrees

Wings: Watson, May, Nowell, Yarde, Wade

Fullback: Brown, Goode, probably Watson or Nowell.

by beshocked Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:43 am

You've got Rhys Gill at LH too.

No mention of Henson? Whistle

Owen Williams too at 10.

by bedfordwelsh Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:03 pm

IronMike wrote:With all the talk about Englands strength in depth, I thought it would be an opportunity to discuss where Wales are in terms of depth.

Looseheads - Jenkins, James, Evans, Smith, Bevington - Please not Bevington
Hookers - Hibbard, Owens, Baldwin, Dacey, Phillips - Add Elliott Dee to it as well
Tightheads - Lee, Jarvis?, Andrews - For me Jarvis nor Andrews are up to it so this area needs real attention

Second row - Ball, AWJ, Charteris, Evans - Evans won't feature while Bristol outside the Aviva add B Davies to list

Blindside - Lydiate, King, Shingler, Turnbull - Add Lewis Evans
Openside - Warburton, Tipuric, Navidi - Would also consider Navidi as a No8
8 - Faletau, Baker - Hope Pitman kicks on next season

Scrumhalf - Webb, Davies, Phillips - Rh Williams as well
Flyhalf - Biggar, Priestland, Hook, Anscombe - O Williams over Hook and Anscombe for me

Centres - Roberts, Davies, Williams, Allen - Tyler Morgan and Jack Dixon to come through soon I hope

Wings - North, Cuthbert, Amos - Prydie and even Halfpenny

Fullback - Halfpenny, Williams - Prydie here to

Which players from the regions (or anywhere else) need to be more involved to help us develop depth in areas we're lacking?

by SecretFly Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:21 pm

England have 12 sides to pick from. Now even if you cut that number in half to get a more realistic number that they choose from, that's still two more sides than Wales.

England always have strength in depth - players. They've often failed in the past because that strength in depth didn't extend to wise coaching. But it's hopeless talk reeling out names to fill a page and calling them 'depth' merely to try an prove to yourself that you have as much of it as England.

You don't - Ireland don't, Scotland don't, Italy don't.

That's just a solid fact.

England's strength is the choices they can make. Their weakness though is also the choices they can make. Because it's always so attractive to just pick another 'in-form' player if the current one looks a bit off.

Wales strength is the experience its Internationals get because there are so few choices. Experience can often get the better of a constantly revolving conveyorbelt of players that England can call on.
Wales weakness is that when form goes off and injuries happen, the time needed to patch up and get the ball rolling again is longer in duration than England. That's the period Wales seem to be in.

So you just can't avoid reality - and I'm not just picking on Wales. Ireland can't avoid reality either - our depth is limited by numbers - it can't change, it won't change. But better coaching might give those limitations an edge still.

It's not the players, it's the coaching.

by Seagultaf Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:55 pm

IronMike wrote:With all the talk about Englands strength in depth, I thought it would be an opportunity to discuss where Wales are in terms of depth.

Looseheads - Jenkins, James, Evans
Hookers - Hibbard, Owens
Tightheads - Lee

Second row - Ball, AWJ, Charteris, Davies

Blindside - Lydiate
Openside - Warburton, Tipuric
8 - Faletau

Scrumhalf - Webb, Davies, Phillips
Flyhalf - Biggar, Priestland, O Williams

Centres - Roberts, Davies, Williams

Wings - North, Cuthbert

Fullback - Halfpenny, Williams

Which players from the regions (or anywhere else) need to be more involved to help us develop depth in areas we're lacking?

The problem Wales have is a very small professional playing base (and getting smaller with the redistribution of European money). I have edited your list to show players that have proven ability at international and/or European top level. The depth looks a lot shallower doesn't it?

by The Saint Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:59 pm

Have you given the OP much thought? It seems like you've just listed most of the available players. If you look at LH for example, only James, Jenkins and probably Evans have international capabilities. At TH there's Jarvis and Andrews on the list, which I know who are in the current squad but oh dear come on.

Segultaf's list looks a lot more accurate.

by Guest Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:52 pm

SecretFly wrote:England have 12 sides to pick from. Now even if you cut that number in half to get a more realistic number that they choose from, that's still two more sides than Wales.

England always have strength in depth - players. They've often failed in the past because that strength in depth didn't extend to wise coaching. But it's hopeless talk reeling out names to fill a page and calling them 'depth' merely to try an prove to yourself that you have as much of it as England.

You don't - Ireland don't, Scotland don't, Italy don't.

That's just a solid fact.

England's strength is the choices they can make. Their weakness though is also the choices they can make. Because it's always so attractive to just pick another 'in-form' player if the current one looks a bit off.

Wales strength is the experience its Internationals get because there are so few choices. Experience can often get the better of a constantly revolving conveyorbelt of players that England can call on.
Wales weakness is that when form goes off and injuries happen, the time needed to patch up and get the ball rolling again is longer in duration than England. That's the period Wales seem to be in.

So you just can't avoid reality - and I'm not just picking on Wales. Ireland can't avoid reality either - our depth is limited by numbers - it can't change, it won't change. But better coaching might give those limitations an edge still.

It's not the players, it's the coaching.

I'm not listing players to try and match England's depth, I'm just listing them as examples, not all the players are great and are definitely not always as good as the first or second choice player.

by SecretFly Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:25 pm

No, I'm just saying that's what fans tend to always do. Look to where solutions might be in choosing other players.

That only goes so far with limited resources and can be self defeating in itself because new players always have to get up to speed on coaching patterns and preferences at International camp.

I'm not criticising the lists of names as much as I'm criticising the direction most fans always go in - if things aren't working, the solution always seems to be what other players might inject the momentum.

I say the coach/coaches need to ask themselves the hard questions and know that it is their court to find new solutions to old problems. The welsh system has somehow been rumbled by the better sides. The tactics aren't working (perhaps because other teams have now matched and perhaps gone beyond famed Welsh fitness and conditioning)

I say the buck stops with Gatland and co - they must find new ideas to get a new edge. They can't fall back on old excuses of not having the right player here or the right player there. It's not about players, it's about the coaches earning their salaries now and showing the Welsh fans that they can think themselves out of the slump.

That may include different players in certain positions but moreso it'll just need new tactics or an ability to mix up a game and get stickier as a side. I keep thinking one of Wales' biggest faults is that it seems to refuse to have a cloying, bogged down and slowly cumbersome, dirty and frustrating gameplan ready when they need one to halt a better technical side. Wales still want to be the ascendant free-flowing side, whereas they might gain traction better by inventing 'frustrating' tactics to bog down sides wanting to punish them.

by Tiger/Chief Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:28 pm

Also as mentioned England's strength in depth has to be very carefully managed as it can quickly become a curse!

It's very easy to stick with what you have to gain experience and leave out potentially better in experienced talent coming through! Take Slade as an example.. It could easily be feasible that he doesn't get capped until he's 23/24 because he had to wait his turn in line.

Also Callum Clark is 25/26, still not capped and we still don't truly know how he will deliver on the international stage! If he was Scottish Irish or Welsh he'd probably have 20 caps by now.

by fa0019 Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:34 pm

If England and France were to centrally franchise their players and clubs then I think they would dominate... but they don't, so they don't dominate world rugby.

Those who centrally contract have more control over their clubs and their players... albeit a limited number. Those who don't have larger competitions etc.

But given England's clubs have more control, they have far greater numbers of foreign players in their squads than centrally contracted teams so the statements... Wales' have 4 clubs vs. England's 12 is a little off the mark.

In the end... look SA, NZ and AUS only have 5 teams a piece so Wales 4 given their pop size isn't too bad.

by gboycottnut1 Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:42 pm

To improve creativity and improve the unpredictability aspect of the back division play, Can't Wales play 4 flyhalves again like they did v England at Twickenham back in 1988?

by SecretFly Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:50 pm

fa0019 wrote:If England and France were to centrally franchise their players and clubs then I think they would dominate... but they don't, so they don't dominate world rugby.

Those who centrally contract have more control over their clubs and their players... albeit a limited number. Those who don't have larger competitions etc.

But given England's clubs have more control, they have far greater numbers of foreign players in their squads than centrally contracted teams so the statements... Wales' have 4 clubs vs. England's 12 is a little off the mark.

In the end... look SA, NZ and AUS only have 5 teams a piece so Wales 4 given their pop size isn't too bad.

With respect fa, the SH is the Southern Hemisphere - the rugby from grass roots up is organised differently, has different intensity levels, has feveish competiiveness at younger ages and is simply a different game to the one in Europe.

But in Europe - where two 'National teams' (Wales / England) exist in the One Nation - and they share a border you can walk across, and they share roughly the same methodology from the ground up to International, and they all know each other, and play against each other or with each other often enough, and know each others weaknesses and strengths intimately from watching side by side Leagues on a weekly basis - given all that, I do think that one of those Nations having 12 top ranked, top Leagued sides and the other having only 4 IS a factor when discussing 'strength in depth'.

New Zealand, SA and Australia are habitually the 1st, 2nd and 3rd ranked sides in the world - their machines are honed to get them to those positions. Wales is not in that league and even England struggles to sustain a parity with that company. So it's not like with like.
Wales feels the pace of a lack of strength in depth and that's because much fewer of their potential Internationals get to play in Pro12, get to be noticed, get to be promoted or bought by the better Welsh sides and fail to even register as potential Internationals. They languish in the smaller clubs because there is simply not enough room to support their development.

by fa0019 Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:06 pm

Fly

I do agree... but with the age of professionalism, I can't see why this isn't significantly reducing. Ireland and Wales have managed to produce top class teams and compete well at age grade. I think Welsh depth is hurt by a lack of proper competitions for up and coming players.

Take SA within professional teams.

They have

Varsity Cup (University competition).
Vodacom Cup (C grade rugby)
Currie Cup (B grade rugby).
Super Rugby (A grade rugby).

Whilst you may have only 5 top tier sides or so, the squads are far far larger. WP may have 60 regular playing players on their books excluding age grade teams such as U19s, U17s etc etc. You have a few players that play vodacom cup and Currie cup or currie cup and SR but not many... 5 or so per team.

Remember whilst SA have a pop of 50MM, often 10-12 of all their players in a team come from white households i.e. only 5-6MM people so the difference is not that great.

Things like not having an A side undoubtedly hurts them (albeit it means all their U20 players are tied to them due to the bogus "A" side rules so its not all bad).... however when did Wales lose players to England, Ireland, Scotland from age grade... perhaps a few at best. Personally I think things like an A side and regular touring and competition may help them.

Look at England in Argentina in 2013... how many of those players now are locked into the side??? Same with the wolfhounds. Can't complain about strength in depth if you turn your entire setup to focus on the elite... and nothing else.

by bedfordwelsh Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:22 pm

gboycottnut1 wrote:To improve creativity and improve the unpredictability aspect of the back division play, Can't Wales play 4 flyhalves again like they did v England at Twickenham back in 1988?

What you mean Biggar Priestland Anscombe and ummmmmmm.

No thanks

by Guest Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:22 pm

10. Biggar
12. Patchell
13. Hook
15. Anscombe

Genius

by BamBam Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:53 pm

England could do the same

10. Ford
12. Farrell
13. Slade
15. Cipriani

Would be quite a giggle to watch

by Tiger/Chief Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:59 pm

That England back line would need Tuilagi on one wing to smash the ball up and Watson on the other to chase all the kicks!!!!

by Cardiff Dave Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:02 pm

IronMike wrote:10. Biggar
12. Patchell
13. Hook
15. Anscombe

Genius

15. Jamie Roberts??

by quinsforever Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:07 pm

military intelligence

by bedfordwelsh Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:26 pm

IronMike wrote:10. Biggar
12. Patchell
13. Hook
15. Anscombe

Genius

God help us lol

by The Saint Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:30 pm

BamBam wrote:England could do the same

10. Ford
12. Farrell
13. Slade
15. Cipriani

Would be quite a giggle to watch

There centre's ain't bad at all to be honest.

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