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A British & Irish League

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Coleman
SecretFly
wayne
geoff999rugby
Irish Londoner
The Great Aukster
HongKongCherry
Gooseberry
marty2086
shuren34
broadlandboy
GavinDragon
Shifty
Cardiff Dave
LondonTiger
Notch
PenfroPete
Kingshu
RuggerRadge2611
Chunky Norwich
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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 17 Feb 2015, 3:47 pm

I've posted my thoughts regularly on how I feel the Pro12 has now come to a natural end. I feel it's a nothing league, and I feel the British and Irish will be left behind France if something is not done.

"Why not do something proactive, and not just keep moaning" is the cry from many a  poster.

So, I've put my money where my mouth is, and I've come up with a format that although is very draft, is something which I think needs to happen to save NH domestic rugby. I DO NOT have all the answers, but I'm working on it.

Methodology:

There are 6 groups of 4 teams &  2 conferences of 3 groups.

You play everyone in your group twice (maintaining local rivalries) - 6 games

You play everyone else in your conference once (alternating between home and away through the years) - 8 games

You play everyone from two of the other conference’s groups once (alternating between groups yearly) - 8 games

A total of 22 games, roughly the same as the leagues have at the moment. At the end of this stage, you’d have Welsh, Irish, West, South, Midlands and North league champions, plus North and South conference champions and British/Irish Champions.

The winner of each group then qualifies for the playoffs along with the next 2 best ranked teams from each conference. Play offs then follow as they would in the current season. Final determined at beginning of season, preferably outside Ireland for a change.

A British & Irish League W9rJUW6


Bt Sport would fund it. They'd pay an amount higher than the Aviva Prem currently get to bridge the gap between us and the French. They would pay this money because they would then hold rights to broadcast all domestic league action in the UK and Ireland. The Scots, Welsh and English are already on board with BT Sport and PRL. As the fallout over the ERC showed.

The English would be happy to do this because there would be extra revenue for them to exploit. There would likely be no wage cap. The revenues would likely be split evenly across all conferences to start with. The model could be adapted to go into a two tier divisional format at a later stage if desired.

It's not perfect. But I tried. Any thoughts?


Last edited by Chunky Norwich on Fri 06 Nov 2015, 3:29 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 17 Feb 2015, 3:56 pm

Similar to the NHL in the US and Canada, it's a format that can work.

It's not the worst idea I have ever seen, however it's getting buy in from all the Unions. Especially around international windows.

I'm not the type of person that gets involved in the debate of whether or not the Pro12 is better than the Jeff or vice versa. I personally think the 2 seperate league systems make the ERC that wee bit more spicey. I prefer the pro 12 but thats only because I have a connection to one of the teams.

I do wonder what would happen to the Itallian teams under your proposals. If we are serious about maintaining an Italian presence in the 6N they should be included in this somehow.

How that's done I have no idea. Perhaps they should be invited to play with the French, however I think they would struggle badly in that league considering how big some of the clubs cheque books are and Italian rugby would suffer.
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Post by Kingshu Tue 17 Feb 2015, 4:14 pm

Personally think its terrible,

Conferences are always going to create issues, playing a team once or not at all disadvantages the teams from the strongest Conferences.
Look at the difference in relative strength, using
http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php (hasn't updated from 2nd June 2014 but still a good est)

South 'A'
Wales West south
20th     25th  4th          
21st       -      10th            
24th     7th      29th
35th     26th     -

North 'B'
Ire   North Mid
2nd   5th   3rd
6th    31st  9th
8th    38th  23rd
33rd  16th  26th

North 'B' and Irish conferences are by far and away the worst, if say some one from Wales West or south, didn't have to play anyone from the Irish conference and only once against the Midlands (second toughest) they would have an easy ride and couldn't be considered fair winners.

In my opinion Conferences would create a lot more problems.

Also what happens the English teams wanting promotion, or the Welsh clubs that would feel left out again?

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Post by PenfroPete Tue 17 Feb 2015, 4:18 pm

Is this the sort of thing Chunky  ?

NORTHERN CONFERENCE 12 TEAMS

North League
Edinburgh
Glasgow Warriors
Newcastle Falcons
Sale Sharks

Midlands League
Leicester Tigers
Northampton Saints
Wasps
AN Other (Worcester ?)

Irish League
Connacht
Leinster
Munster
Ulster


SOUTHERN CONFERENCE 12 TEAMS

Welsh League
Blues
Dragons
Ospreys
Scarlets

West League
Bath
Exeter
Gloucester
A N Other (Bristol ?)

South League
Harlequins
London Irish
London Welsh
Saracens

Then Conference play-offs

Then North Conference winners v South Conference winners

Alternatively, 2 divisions of 11 (5 Celtic & 6 English) - taken at present

Glasgow Warriors
Munster
Ospreys
Ulster
Leinster
Northampton Saints
Bath
Saracens
Wasps
Exeter Chiefs
Sale Sharks


Connacht
Scarlets
Edinburgh
Blues
Newport Gwent Dragons
Leicester Tigers
Harlequins
Gloucester
London Irish  
Newcastle Falcons
London Welsh

Straight promotion/relegation for the top/ bottom 2 teams. The champions in the top division decided by play-offs

Semi one – 1st v 4th
Semi two – 2nd v 3rd

Final – Winner S1 v Winner S2

2 problems with either solution

1) – what about the Italians ?  (Declares self interest – go out to Italy for a game or 2 a season to watch either ‘T’ospreys, my shower, or Scarlets, her shower)

2) This means getting into bed with the English. History teaches us this is NOT a good thing. I did it once and felt so, so dirty afterwards  Erm)
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Post by Notch Tue 17 Feb 2015, 4:34 pm

Hmmm, think the English system is too different to ours (Irish) too make compatible partners. I would rather continue to only deal with the PRL in the context of Europe. Our interest is in a pyramid structure of rugby where the provinces in the middle, in between amateur clubs and the national side. Theirs is in club system with promotion and relegation and they prioritise their own sides over their national side. Conflict is bound to arise, probably based on the necessary ring fencing of the English teams and the need for our international players to be managed.

These are the people we just barely managed to agree on a European format, so I'm pretty sceptical that we could manage to agree on an entire competition. The Pro12 has been stable with no one party grandstanding in the way we saw with the European saga, why risk that stability? The problems experienced by teams in Wales and Italy are down to years and years of bad management and incompetence. With better management, success for them is possible within the current format.

I've got no problem with the structure or the teams. It would be as good or better than what we have. My concern is entirely with the people running English club rugby. You can't get into bed with snakes and not expect to get bitten. When two parties have different priorities, it's bound to cause conflict. I don't see the advantage here for the English or the Irish, leaving only the Welsh likely to be in favour and maybe the Scots.
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Post by LondonTiger Tue 17 Feb 2015, 5:01 pm

Notch wrote:You can't get into bed with snakes and not expect to get bitten.

Which pretty much sums up why English clubs would choose not to climb into this bed Wink


More seriously would struggle to see this working or appealing to TV companies, unless the ECC died. It would certainly make the ECC duller as most matches would be between sides who face each other regularly.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Tue 17 Feb 2015, 8:37 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Notch wrote:You can't get into bed with snakes and not expect to get bitten.

Which pretty much sums up why English clubs would choose not to climb into this bed Wink


More seriously would struggle to see this working or appealing to TV companies, unless the ECC died. It would certainly make the ECC duller as most matches would be between sides who face each other regularly.

Ouch! True though I spose.

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Post by Shifty Tue 17 Feb 2015, 9:53 pm

There's no real need, you could simply have a 20 team league to replace the existing competitions. You could expand it to 22 teams provided you are prepared to sacrifice one week of pre-season friendlies. So all were basically talking about is dumping the Italians from the Pro 12 and using the 12 English and 10 Celtic teams for a British league.
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Post by GavinDragon Wed 18 Feb 2015, 6:31 am

I like both the conference and 22 - 2 division - league format, unfortunately both would devalue the current european comps which generate the most money for clubs/provinces/regions.

Also any changes would only benefit the celtic sides. There is no real incentive for the English sides to make changes as by and large they are coping pretty well as is at the moment

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 9:23 am

GavinDragon wrote:. There is no real incentive for the English sides to make changes as by and large they are coping pretty well as is at the moment

No, this is the crux.......the broadcasting money would be much, much higher than what it is currently. Because it would be the only show in town. So that carrot dangled infront of the English would hopefully sway them

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 9:24 am

Kingshu wrote:playing a team once or not at all disadvantages the teams from the strongest Conferences.

But they are rotated, so you play everyone within 2 seasons.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 9:25 am

GavinDragon wrote:I like both the conference and 22 - 2 division - league format, unfortunately both would devalue the current european comps which generate the most money for clubs/provinces/regions.


It is either that, or the French march on I'm afraid.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 9:26 am

PenfroPete wrote:what about the Italians ?  

In my opinion, they've had their chance in the pro12 and offerred little. Time for them either to create their own league or go in French Div 2/3 if possible.

It's time to worry about ourselves now.

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Post by broadlandboy Wed 18 Feb 2015, 10:03 am

CN The money would need to double before it would be worth it for the PRL to consider it.
What about the salary cap?
Union controlled teams against clubs?
Some big changes needed before this would be considered

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 10:05 am

broadlandboy wrote:CN The money would need to double before it would be worth it for the PRL to consider it.

It will.

What about the salary cap?

what about it?

Union controlled teams against clubs?
? Already happens in the pro12

Some big changes needed before this would be considered

Big changes are fundamental. You got that bit right.

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Post by shuren34 Wed 18 Feb 2015, 11:29 am

In my opinion, it should be done. I don't see top14 decrease in the next year, au contraire. So you will face with 2 options: a british league or being a second tier competition.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 11:37 am

shuren34 wrote:In my opinion, it should be done. I don't see top14 decrease in the next year, au contraire. So you will face with 2 options: a british league or being a second tier competition.

Spot on.

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Post by marty2086 Wed 18 Feb 2015, 11:41 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:. There is no real incentive for the English sides to make changes as by and large they are coping pretty well as is at the moment

No, this is the crux.......the broadcasting money would be much, much higher than what it is currently. Because it would be the only show in town. So that carrot dangled infront of the English would hopefully sway them

If thats the case then does that not contradict your view on the Pro12?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 11:43 am

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:. There is no real incentive for the English sides to make changes as by and large they are coping pretty well as is at the moment

No, this is the crux.......the broadcasting money would be much, much higher than what it is currently. Because it would be the only show in town. So that carrot dangled infront of the English would hopefully sway them

If thats the case then does that not contradict your view on the Pro12?

How so?

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Post by marty2086 Wed 18 Feb 2015, 12:32 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:. There is no real incentive for the English sides to make changes as by and large they are coping pretty well as is at the moment

No, this is the crux.......the broadcasting money would be much, much higher than what it is currently. Because it would be the only show in town. So that carrot dangled infront of the English would hopefully sway them

If thats the case then does that not contradict your view on the Pro12?

How so?

If the Pro12 had 'come to a natural end' then it would provide no competition with the AP when it comes to negotiations and yet it does.

How you can consider it at an end this season of all seasons though is baffling considering its one of the most competitive in its history and most are in agreement that its getting stronger, maybe helped by the new qualification criteria for the ECC

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 12:40 pm

marty2086 wrote:

If the Pro12 had 'come to a natural end' then it would provide no competition with the AP when it comes to negotiations and yet it does.
"An end" is my term for "we need a change".

What do you mean it provides "competition with the AP when it comes to negotiations"? You mean broadcasters? I haven't really got a clue what you're saying here sorry.

How you can consider it at an end this season of all seasons though is baffling considering its one of the most competitive in its history and most are in agreement that its getting stronger, maybe helped by the new qualification criteria for the ECC

The refereeing this season is the poorest I have seen in any pro competition in about a decade I think. Just because a new set of qualifications are brought about doesn't mean it's not time for change.

I tell you what - if the league improves and matches the English sponsorship / funding levels I may have to have a rethink.

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Post by marty2086 Wed 18 Feb 2015, 12:46 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:

What do you mean it provides "competition with the AP when it comes to negotiations"? You mean broadcasters? I haven't really got a clue what you're saying here sorry.

Considering you mentioned broadcasting in the previous post I thought that was obvious

Chunky Norwich wrote:The refereeing this season is the poorest I have seen in any pro competition in about a decade I think. Just because a new set of qualifications are brought about doesn't mean it's not time for change.

I tell you what - if the league improves and matches the English sponsorship / funding levels I may have to have a rethink.

Going by the selections of referees for the 6Ns and big AP games it would seem Wayne Barnes is considered the best so maybe you might want to reconsider the idea that the officiating in the AP is head and shoulders above the Pro12.

Try reading this critique of his approach to the scrum on Saturday

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/ireland-france-six-nations-scrum-analysis-2/13703

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 12:49 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Considering you mentioned broadcasting in the previous post I thought that was obvious

Are you saying that the pro12 competes with the AP in terms of broadcasting rights? The same pro12 that sky only picked up when theydidn't have anythign else to show?

Chunky Norwich wrote:The refereeing this season is the poorest I have seen in any pro competition in about a decade I think. Just because a new set of qualifications are brought about doesn't mean it's not time for change.

I tell you what - if the league improves and matches the English sponsorship / funding levels I may have to have a rethink.

Going by the selections of referees for the 6Ns and big AP games it would seem Wayne Barnes is considered the best so maybe you might want to reconsider the idea that the officiating in the AP is head and shoulders above the Pro12.

Try reading this critique of his approach to the scrum on Saturday

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/ireland-france-six-nations-scrum-analysis-2/13703

It's miles ahead of the pro12.


Miles.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 18 Feb 2015, 12:50 pm

Where to even start ....

Adding the BrIsih in wouldnt generate that much extra viewing figures for the Premiership, and would devalue the European cups not to mention finally nailing the Anglo Welsh (which used to be a real money spinner for the clubs) down as nothing but a B team side show.

The salary cap is relevant, especially with dual contracted players. The likes of Saracens and Bath might be in favour sensing an opportunity to ditch it again. But would the welsh want to be in a competition where even Ospreys struggle to get in the top half let alone the playoffs?

To make this happen youd be asking for smaller Premiership clubs to vote for Christmas and obscurity in a second tier.
Or a bloated multi pooled mess of a league with extended playoffs and ever increasing gaps between haves and have nots leading to uncompetitive low intensity games that dont suit the TV or the players.

In all that theres nothing to suggest the big English clubs would gain enough to suddenly be able to flex their muscles against the French in Europe.

Looking at Pro 12 crowds and viewing figures if anything the average gate would go down from such a merger.

Whilst it might be a way to keep the Welsh and Scottish game afloat ( screw the Italians, they can go into the french second tier or back to peasent farming their own league) and provide the Irish provinces with some games they can be bothered to try in I dont really see whats in it for the English clubs big or small. And ultimately ( as we saw from the Euro stand off) they are the ones who decide these things.

Can you really see the PRL handing some of its power over to foreign unions? They would happily see the game fold in the rest of Britain and maybe then Wasps relocate to Cardiff to fill the gap. Thats the only way this would happen.

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Post by HongKongCherry Wed 18 Feb 2015, 1:00 pm

Given the financial state of the Jeff, there isn't the demand to change the set up at present. For the PRL to consider this and ultimately concede control there would need to be an enormous financial benefit. I cannot see this type of league more than doubling the existing deal with BT. Furthermore, whilst rugby isn't traditionally a sport that attracts large numbers of away fans when you look at the various processes suggested the likes of Wuss and Saints would have a hell of a trek for the bulk of their away games. The simple reality is there is no demand from a financial or fan point from within England.
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Post by marty2086 Wed 18 Feb 2015, 1:01 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Considering you mentioned broadcasting in the previous post I thought that was obvious

Are you saying that the pro12 competes with the AP in terms of broadcasting rights? The same pro12 that sky only picked up when theydidn't have anythign else to show?


No the point I was trying to get at was that you can't say that the Pro12 provides competition for the AP for broadcasting rights and that the league is at an end. If it is in play when it comes to broadcasting rights then its growing.

If the Pro12 was desperation for Sky why would it be in the interests of the English then to join with them as it would dilute the product surely and damage their bargaining power.

You do also realise that the same refs would officiate in this imaginary league you want created?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 1:17 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:when you look at the various processes suggested the likes of Wuss and Saints would have a hell of a trek for the bulk of their away games.

Don't see that. Take Worcester's away games in a typical season:

Saints, Leicester, Wasps, Ulster, Munster, Newcastle, Sale, Ospreys, Scarlets, Exeter, Bristol

Surely that's less travel than they do now?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 1:19 pm

marty2086 wrote:

No the point I was trying to get at was that you can't say that the Pro12 provides competition for the AP for broadcasting rights and that the league is at an end. If it is in play when it comes to broadcasting rights then its growing.

I don't believe I did say that.

If the Pro12 was desperation for Sky why would it be in the interests of the English then to join with them as it would dilute the product surely and damage their bargaining power.

Money.

You do also realise that the same refs would officiate in this imaginary league you want created?

But more good ones would referee in countries other than England.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 1:29 pm

I don't see anybody else trying to bridge the gap between us and the French anyway. I must assume that anybody who is happy with the current scenario is happy for French domination in Europe and everything that comes with it.

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Post by The Great Aukster Wed 18 Feb 2015, 2:05 pm

The truth is that the PRO12 sides don't offer any improvement to the PRL finances - so the English sides have no incentive to even consider a change. They already have as much money as they can extract from their market.
Even if a B&I League did double the broadcasting rights value the PRL wouldn't get any more money because it would be divided over double the teams. To make it in any way attractive to them they would need to insist on the lion's share of the income just as they have tried to do in Europe. They would also have to factor in the demise of the European competitions and associated reduction in revenue (if they struggle to sell the ERCC sponsorship now it would be even harder with a B&I League). Then they would also have to factor in loss of gate revenue because of reduced numbers of travelling fans. The Pro12 teams joining a B&I League would have to prove they could attract far more than 'double' the money and unless they all unearth oligarchs to pay for the privilege it isn't going to happen.

Far more likely is a say 14 team European League involving the cream of the T14, AP and P12, that provides a wide catchment area and associated money.
Three relegated per season and the three League champions promoted.

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Post by Irish Londoner Wed 18 Feb 2015, 2:17 pm

Chunky is right about one thing - if we want to see competitive rugby in all the home nations, there has to be some sort of levelling mechanism otherwise we are going to have a three tier of leagues in Europe, a "money no object" French League with the best of the SH and the Celtic nations, a Jeff which is going to be increasingly split between the top five or six "haves" and the "have nots" making up the numbers, and a Pro12 which will be a developing ground for Celtic players before they chase the pound or Euro in the other two.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 2:20 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:Chunky is right about one thing - if we want to see competitive rugby in all the home nations, there has to be some sort of levelling mechanism otherwise we are going to have a three tier of leagues in Europe, a "money no object" French League with the best of the SH and the Celtic nations, a Jeff which is going to be increasingly split between the top five or six "haves" and the "have nots" making up the numbers, and a Pro12 which will be a developing ground for Celtic players before they chase the pound or Euro in the other two.

So I've given my method for resolving it.

Anybody have any other ideas?

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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 18 Feb 2015, 2:20 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:The truth is that the PRO12 sides don't offer any improvement to the PRL finances - so the English sides have no incentive to even consider a change..

Not sure about that.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster and even Ospreys are a hell of a lot more attractive than Newcastle, London Irish, London Welsh

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Post by broadlandboy Wed 18 Feb 2015, 2:29 pm

But they aren't to the PRL

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 18 Feb 2015, 2:39 pm

The answer is a smaller ring fenced franchise Jeff (8-10 clubs) and less games. Better rested players, less squad baggage, less cost, less leaches at the bottom. Everyone gets Europe, all games are against strong welll supported and financed sides. Stronger smaller second tier which could play full strength sides alongside the development teams from the Teir 1 Jeff in yet another rehash of the Wanglo cup. League 1 goes semi pro.

The other unions get their own houses and domestic leagues in order.

Or we just go back to not having leagues and clubs organising their own fixtures for a year. We might even get the Tigers Barbarians tie back that way.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 2:43 pm

Gooseberry wrote:The answer is a smaller ring fenced franchise Jeff (8-10 clubs) and less games. Better rested players, less squad baggage, less cost, less leaches at the bottom. Everyone gets Europe, all games are against strong welll supported and financed sides. Stronger smaller second tier which could play full strength sides alongside the development teams from the Teir 1 Jeff in yet another rehash of the Wanglo cup. League 1 goes semi pro.
.

How would that be enough to bridge the gap between us and the French? If anything less quality and less games are going to decrease sponsors and broadcast funding.

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Post by wayne Wed 18 Feb 2015, 2:56 pm

[quote="Chunky Norwich"][quote="marty2086"]

The refereeing this season is the poorest I have seen in any pro competition in about a decade I think. Just because a new set of qualifications are brought about doesn't mean it's not time for change.
Chunky, I've commented many times on the suitability and expertise of referees in the Celtan League for a number of seasons, with it NOT getting any better this season, but if there is any match that I've seen this season that proves the incompetence of the officials in charge of a single game, it was the RCC match between my team (Ospreys v Racing Metro) the referee in that game was JP Doyle and one of the touch judges was the former International Referee Dave Pearson, I can't remember who the other TJ was, they were absolutely useless, and authorised by the RFU, and I commented on here at the time, so to tarnish just our League's officials as rubbish is going to far.


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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 3:02 pm

wayne wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

The refereeing this season is the poorest I have seen in any pro competition in about a decade I think. Just because a new set of qualifications are brought about doesn't mean it's not time for change.
Chunky, I've commented many times on the suitability and expertise of referees in the Celtan League for a number of seasons, with it NOT getting any better this season, but if there is any match that I've seen this season that proves the incompetence of the officials in charge of a single game, it was the RCC match between my team (Ospreys v Racing Metro) the referee in that game was JP Doyle and one of the touch judges was the former International Referee Dave Pearson, I can't remember who the other TJ was, they were absolutely useless, and authorised by the RFU, and I commented on here at the time, so to tarnish just our League's officials as rubbish is going to far.  


There are awful referees in every league. The pooling of resources would hopefully make it fairer across the board though.

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Post by wayne Wed 18 Feb 2015, 3:16 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
wayne wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

The refereeing this season is the poorest I have seen in any pro competition in about a decade I think. Just because a new set of qualifications are brought about doesn't mean it's not time for change.
Chunky, I've commented many times on the suitability and expertise of referees in the Celtan League for a number of seasons, with it NOT getting any better this season, but if there is any match that I've seen this season that proves the incompetence of the officials in charge of a single game, it was the RCC match between my team (Ospreys v Racing Metro) the referee in that game was JP Doyle and one of the touch judges was the former International Referee Dave Pearson, I can't remember who the other TJ was, they were absolutely useless, and authorised by the RFU, and I commented on here at the time, so to tarnish just our League's officials as rubbish is going to far.  


There are awful referees in every league. The pooling of resources would hopefully make it fairer across the board though.
The problem is the 2 that I've mentioned are supposedly amongst the best in the AP, or they wouldn't be put to officiate in the RCC.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 3:22 pm

There's no way Dave Pearson is among the best anything. He's atrocious.

The referees in the AP are generally of a far higher standard. There are far more good ones than in the pro 12.

Barnes, Pearce, Small, Garner are all good.

In the pro12, there is only really Owens and Lacey. And that's a stretch.

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Post by wayne Wed 18 Feb 2015, 3:27 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:There's no way Dave Pearson is among the best anything. He's atrocious.

The referees in the AP are generally of a far higher standard. There are far more good ones than in the pro 12.

Barnes, Pearce, Small, Garner are all good.

In the pro12, there is only really Owens and Lacey. And that's a stretch.
Well obviously whoever submits these officials disagrees with you, and I think you are stretching things a bit far including Andrew Small and Greg Garner in a list of good referees.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 3:28 pm

wayne wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:There's no way Dave Pearson is among the best anything. He's atrocious.

The referees in the AP are generally of a far higher standard. There are far more good ones than in the pro 12.

Barnes, Pearce, Small, Garner are all good.

In the pro12, there is only really Owens and Lacey. And that's a stretch.
Well obviously whoever submits these officials disagrees with you, and I think you are stretching things a bit far including Andrew Small and Greg Garner in a list of good referees.

Maybe I should say "the better ones" are in the AP, and there are more of them.

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Post by wayne Wed 18 Feb 2015, 3:52 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
wayne wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:There's no way Dave Pearson is among the best anything. He's atrocious.

The referees in the AP are generally of a far higher standard. There are far more good ones than in the pro 12.

Barnes, Pearce, Small, Garner are all good.

In the pro12, there is only really Owens and Lacey. And that's a stretch.
Well obviously whoever submits these officials disagrees with you, and I think you are stretching things a bit far including Andrew Small and Greg Garner in a list of good referees.

Maybe I should say "the better ones" are in the AP, and there are more of them.
That might be your opinion, it certainly isn't mine, at the time of that Racing Metro match I commented on here, how the standard of refereeing in the Northern Hemisphere was abysmal, and the touch judges didn't help in either scrum or offside decisions, when it could be so easy to police.

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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 18 Feb 2015, 3:56 pm

broadlandboy wrote:But they aren't to the PRL

That is what I dispute.

Maybe not to the PRL as a whole but to the likes of Bath, Saracens, Leicester, Saints the 3 senior Irish clubs have more pulling power in terms of gate and TV that the exiles or the northern teams.
It would be brutal but commercial logic could win out.

I think it is perfectly conceivable the money dictates a B & I league of the 3 Irish provinces, Ospreys, Glasgow and 7 English sides with the rest making up Division 2.
The ones I mentioned plus 3 from Glaws, Quins, Sale, Wasps, Exeter seems possible

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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 18 Feb 2015, 3:59 pm

wayne wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
wayne wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:There's no way Dave Pearson is among the best anything. He's atrocious.

The referees in the AP are generally of a far higher standard. There are far more good ones than in the pro 12.

Barnes, Pearce, Small, Garner are all good.

In the pro12, there is only really Owens and Lacey. And that's a stretch.
Well obviously whoever submits these officials disagrees with you, and I think you are stretching things a bit far including Andrew Small and Greg Garner in a list of good referees.

Maybe I should say "the better ones" are in the AP, and there are more of them.
That might be your opinion, it certainly isn't mine, at the time of that Racing Metro match I commented on here, how the standard of refereeing in the Northern Hemisphere was abysmal, and the touch judges didn't help in either scrum or offside decisions, when it could be so easy to police.  

What makes you think the southern hemisphere ones are any better ?
Of the 4 on the International panel - 2 Pollock and Lawrence are poor and one of the other 2 is Steve Walsh who is entertainment I admit.
As for Glen Jackson on Saturday worst ref in the 6N so far

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 18 Feb 2015, 4:06 pm

wayne wrote:
That might be your opinion, it certainly isn't mine, at the time of that Racing Metro match I commented on here, how the standard of refereeing in the Northern Hemisphere was abysmal, and the touch judges didn't help in either scrum or offside decisions, when it could be so easy to police.  

Just saying what I see. The ones I watch week in week out in the pro12 (Phillips, Mitrea, Conway, Davies, Hennessy, Hodges, Clancy, Fitzgibbon, Wilkinson etc) are way worse than their counterparts in England.

This happenned at the weekend (below). I mean if you cannot see that the guy with the ball has his feet in touch then sorry you should not be officiating at proffesional level. Linesman should be ashamed. He waved play on and nearly cost the home team a try.

A British & Irish League ErmInTouchLinoMun

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Post by wayne Wed 18 Feb 2015, 4:30 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
wayne wrote:
That might be your opinion, it certainly isn't mine, at the time of that Racing Metro match I commented on here, how the standard of refereeing in the Northern Hemisphere was abysmal, and the touch judges didn't help in either scrum or offside decisions, when it could be so easy to police.  

Just saying what I see. The ones I watch week in week out in the pro12 (Phillips, Mitrea, Conway, Davies, Hennessy, Hodges, Clancy, Fitzgibbon, Wilkinson etc) are way worse than their counterparts in England.

This happenned at the weekend (below). I mean if you cannot see that the guy with the ball has his feet in touch then sorry you should not be officiating at proffesional level. Linesman should be ashamed. He waved play on and nearly cost the home team a try.

A British & Irish League ErmInTouchLinoMun
3 points, 1) you don't see them officiating week in week out, you've named 9 referees there and as there are only 6 games a week and you've left out 4 other recognised refs, that is impossible to achieve. 2) You actually watch loads of these games, when by your history, your absolute disdain for this League is all to apparent, you must be a very sad individual.
In the game I quoted to you at 3 points in that game, Metro were lined up when rucks were in play and they had numerous players in line with the MIDDLE of said ruck, twice Pearson was covering the offside, the other touch judge the other time, I sit 3 rows back and we were in line with play and said touch judges and we were screaming at him to do his job. NOTHING was done. I'm sorry we'll have to agree to disagree, because English referees are no better than any other Leagues in the NH, IMO.

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Post by shuren34 Wed 18 Feb 2015, 6:25 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:The truth is that the PRO12 sides don't offer any improvement to the PRL finances - so the English sides have no incentive to even consider a change. They already have as much money as they can extract from their market.
Even if a B&I League did double the broadcasting rights value the PRL wouldn't get any more money because it would be divided over double the teams. To make it in any way attractive to them they would need to insist on the lion's share of the income just as they have tried to do in Europe. They would also have to factor in the demise of the European competitions and associated reduction in revenue (if they struggle to sell the ERCC sponsorship now it would be even harder with a B&I League). Then they would also have to factor in loss of gate revenue because of reduced numbers of travelling fans. The Pro12 teams joining a B&I League would have to prove they could attract far more than 'double' the money and unless they all unearth oligarchs to pay for the privilege it isn't going to happen.

Far more likely is a say 14 team European League involving the cream of the T14, AP and P12, that provides a wide catchment area and associated money.
Three relegated per season and the three League champions promoted.

Why do you think our clubs would like to create an European League when our championship has a long history (and enough fanbase) and ours clubs tend to become stronger than others in Europe because they have more money.
Do you really think we will destroy our successful championship, because (unfortunately for you) you have more and more problems to compete with us.  Erm
Our league will probably (if nothing is done in your countries) become the most powerful league in the world, like the Premier League in football. I haven't seen any english clubs/fans/journalists complaining about it and trying to save the European football. So I don't understand why you would expect anything different with our clubs.
You can't compete with us and don't like a future french hegemony, sorry but it's your problem, not ours.
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Post by SecretFly Wed 18 Feb 2015, 7:25 pm

shuren34 wrote:

Why do you think our clubs would like to create an European League when our championship has a long history (and enough fanbase) and ours clubs tend to become stronger than others in Europe because they have more money.
Do you really think we will destroy our successful championship, because (unfortunately for you) you have more and more problems to compete with us.  Erm
Our league will probably (if nothing is done in your countries) become the most powerful league in the world, like the Premier League in football. I haven't seen any english clubs/fans/journalists complaining about it and trying to save the European football. So I don't understand why you would expect anything different with our clubs.
You can't compete with us and don't like a future french hegemony, sorry but it's your problem, not ours.
-

"WEEE is the BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yep, noted Wink

And all six lines of your post being a big reason also why I'd run a million miles from Chunky's helpful Hara-kiri B&I League.

I'd much prefer to see Chunky's ideas on a more simple and fundamental British League (his real heart's desire).  Try a League Breakdown sans the Irish.

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Post by The Great Aukster Wed 18 Feb 2015, 7:57 pm

shuren34 wrote:Why do you think our clubs would like to create an European League

Not all would but the top money orientated clubs realise they're carrying the rest. The top owners don't want salary caps or player restrictions or anything that gets in the way of their wallet. All three leagues have big clubs that will draw more money from a wider audience than the also rans populating the bottom of their leagues - forget history, rugby tradition and all that, it is purely down to the power of the Euro/Pound.

Your comparison to the Premier League is well made. Yet despite having the most money are English football clubs dominating Europe? It is the height of naivety to think ambitious rugby owners are pumping money into the game out of sheer love for the sport and maintaining rugby tradition - they want a return and they want that to be as big as possible.

A Euro league is the creme de la creme and luxury items always command premium prices. Millionaires love luxury so it's the owners that will negotiate a European league despite the fans wishes.

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