Guardian's Kevin Mitchell Sticks It To Floyd

First topic message reminder :

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/feb/23/floyd-mayweather-greatest-sugar-ray-robinson-leonard

We will be reminded regularly between now and 2 May that Floyd Mayweather is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world, the most gifted practitioner of the fighting arts since Sugar Ray Leonard.

There are good arguments for such a judgment. Mayweather is unbeaten in 47 fights, has won world titles from super-feather to light-middle and has earned more than any other boxer in the long history of the sport. If numbers do not tell the whole story, seeing, surely, is believing: even a cursory inspection of his performances confirms he has a unique and special talent.

Mayweather would agree, of course; for a little while now, he has called himself TBE: The Best Ever.

That, however, is a call way too far. Mayweather might be the best of his generation (an argument we can come back to). But, even if he beats Manny Pacquiao to unify the welterweight title this summer, he will fall considerably short of Sugar Ray Robinson as the finest all-round fighter of them all.

In his first 47 fights alone Robinson beat Sammy Angott (twice), Marty Servo (twice), Fritzie Zivic (twice) and Jake LaMotta (twice), as well as losing to the Raging Bull in the first three of their six memorable encounters. And he had hardly warmed up, going on to win 173 of his 200 bouts over 25 years. From lightweight to middleweight, mostly at world level, Ray knocked out 61 more opponents than Floyd has yet fought. In his final year, 1965, he fought 14 times – Mayweather’s total over the past nine years. There is simply no comparison.

Mayweather is not as good as Leonard, either – not in every department.

Leonard was as comfortable taking the initiative as in bamboozling opponents on the back foot. He hit harder and more often than Mayweather, who is a counter-puncher supreme, finishing rather than starting the argument.

Nor would he necessarily beat Leonard’s rivals, Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns or Marvin Hagler – although it is unfair to imagine he would be big enough for the latter two.

Duran – a natural lightweight until he vacated the title in 1979, about the time his waistband began to expand as his dedication dwindled – was the nearest to a peak Mayweather in size – and what a fight theirs would be.

Whose pedigree better survives closer scrutiny? There is not much in it.

Those first 74 fights of Duran’s long career included a single defeat – over 10 rounds to Esteban DeJesus in their first bout – and wins over Ken Buchanan, DeJesus (twice), Carlos Palomino and Leonard. While the “No Mas” rematch against Sugar Ray proved a turning point, Duran fought on with varying degrees of distinction and ambition at the highest level. The final 26 of his 119 contests were, in the main, for money more than glory but he was rarely taken for granted, even as an old, fat, shuffling middleweight.

For all Mayweather’s brilliance, for all his mastery of his contemporaries, he has not done what any of the Four Kings did: test himself on a regular basis against opponents of similar genius. Theirs was an extraordinary era, one which they shared as near equals, crowned not by themselves but by their peers and deeds.

Mayweather can fight only those opponents available to him – but Pacquaio has been available since 2009. Oscar De La Hoya was on the slide when they met, even though the Golden Boy might have won had he not gassed in the closing rounds. So was Shane Mosley. Arturo Gatti was brave but tailor-made for dismantling, as was Ricky Hatton. Miguel Cotto was tough – and that was about it; ditto Saúl Álvarez and Marcos Maidana. Imagine what Leonard or Duran would have done to any of those fighters.

Nice guys finish last again

Some fighters are just such nice guys that you want them to win, no matter the odds or opponent. Paul Smith and Martin Murray are two such fighters, which made their world title defeats on Saturday night the harder to take.

Yet neither was diminished in failure.

Smith gave all he had in his rematch with the German rock Arthur Abraham in Berlin, falling short for the second time. Murray, in his third world title fight, similarly found the strength and class of Gennady Golovkin too much for even his out-sized heart, and was stopped in the 11th round in Monte Carlo.

And the unstoppable rise of Golovkin brings us back to Mayweather. The unbeaten Kazakh, after 19 knockouts on the spin, will probably be steered towards Cotto in the coming months, although he has said he is happy to drop down to 154lb to meet Mayweather.

Mayweather, who loves to bet on everything from basketball to NFL with his “big tycoon buddies”, will regard that as a gamble too far.

Paulie Malignaggi, a good judge, agrees with him. He says Golovkin would be too big for Mayweather, that there is nothing in it for the American, nothing to prove.

Perhaps. But tell it to Duran, Sugar Ray or any of the other amazing fighters who went out of their comfort zone time and again to test themselves against the very best opponents available.

Greatness is not assumed. It is conferred.

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/124655-capetillo-breaks-silence-apologizes-for-hand-wrap-scandal

Margs old trainer on the issue.

Think he should have been stripped of everything and the fact that he was welcomed back with a decent payday is a bad indictment of the sport and Manny's team for taking it.

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?".  Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?  

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top?  That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.

Maybe he thought it would look good to knock out Shane Mosley...something no-one had ever done and only Vernon Forrest came close (but not that close) to achieving.

I'm really only playing Devil's Avocado here...Marg's actions and that of his trainers (I don't for a minute believe he was unaware of anything that went on) were disgusting and the fact he was allowed to fight afterwards says more about boxing than anything else....still, they welcomed Tyson back with open arms after his "transgressions" so when viewed alongside that, is what Marg did so terrible after all? (answer...yes, of course it is, but you get my point).

I have no problem with anyone thinking Margarito used "plaster wraps" prior to the Mosley fight but do take issue with those claiming it as fact rather than supposition.

I betya someone on here knows, or knows someone that does know or has a family member that knows something.

Maybe he'll enlighten us at some point

DAVE667 wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?".  Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?  

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top?  That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.

Maybe he thought it would look good to knock out Shane Mosley...something no-one had ever done and only Vernon Forrest came close (but not that close) to achieving.

I'm really only playing Devil's Avocado here...Marg's actions and that of his trainers (I don't for a minute believe he was unaware of anything that went on) were disgusting and the fact he was allowed to fight afterwards says more about boxing than anything else....still, they welcomed Tyson back with open arms after his "transgressions" so when viewed alongside that, is what Marg did so terrible after all? (answer...yes, of course it is, but you get my point).

I have no problem with anyone thinking Margarito used "plaster wraps" prior to the Mosley fight but do take issue with those claiming it as fact rather than supposition.

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?".  Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?  

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top?  That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.

Maybe he thought it would look good to knock out Shane Mosley...something no-one had ever done and only Vernon Forrest came close (but not that close) to achieving.

I'm really only playing Devil's Avocado here...Marg's actions and that of his trainers (I don't for a minute believe he was unaware of anything that went on) were disgusting and the fact he was allowed to fight afterwards says more about boxing than anything else....still, they welcomed Tyson back with open arms after his "transgressions" so when viewed alongside that, is what Marg did so terrible after all? (answer...yes, of course it is, but you get my point).

I have no problem with anyone thinking Margarito used "plaster wraps" prior to the Mosley fight but do take issue with those claiming it as fact rather than supposition.

Great spot! SLAYER have a lot to answer for.

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?".  Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?  

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top?  That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.

Maybe he thought it would look good to knock out Shane Mosley...something no-one had ever done and only Vernon Forrest came close (but not that close) to achieving.

I'm really only playing Devil's Avocado here...Marg's actions and that of his trainers (I don't for a minute believe he was unaware of anything that went on) were disgusting and the fact he was allowed to fight afterwards says more about boxing than anything else....still, they welcomed Tyson back with open arms after his "transgressions" so when viewed alongside that, is what Marg did so terrible after all? (answer...yes, of course it is, but you get my point).

I have no problem with anyone thinking Margarito used "plaster wraps" prior to the Mosley fight but do take issue with those claiming it as fact rather than supposition.

Great spot! SLAYER have a lot to answer for.

Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?".  Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?  

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top?  That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.

Maybe he thought it would look good to knock out Shane Mosley...something no-one had ever done and only Vernon Forrest came close (but not that close) to achieving.

I'm really only playing Devil's Avocado here...Marg's actions and that of his trainers (I don't for a minute believe he was unaware of anything that went on) were disgusting and the fact he was allowed to fight afterwards says more about boxing than anything else....still, they welcomed Tyson back with open arms after his "transgressions" so when viewed alongside that, is what Marg did so terrible after all? (answer...yes, of course it is, but you get my point).

I have no problem with anyone thinking Margarito used "plaster wraps" prior to the Mosley fight but do take issue with those claiming it as fact rather than supposition.

Great spot! SLAYER have a lot to answer for.

Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

I thought you were victim to the 606v2 spellchecker.

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?".  Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?  

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top?  That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.

Maybe he thought it would look good to knock out Shane Mosley...something no-one had ever done and only Vernon Forrest came close (but not that close) to achieving.

I'm really only playing Devil's Avocado here...Marg's actions and that of his trainers (I don't for a minute believe he was unaware of anything that went on) were disgusting and the fact he was allowed to fight afterwards says more about boxing than anything else....still, they welcomed Tyson back with open arms after his "transgressions" so when viewed alongside that, is what Marg did so terrible after all? (answer...yes, of course it is, but you get my point).

I have no problem with anyone thinking Margarito used "plaster wraps" prior to the Mosley fight but do take issue with those claiming it as fact rather than supposition.

Great spot! SLAYER have a lot to answer for.

Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

I thought you were victim to the 606v2 spellchecker.

You need to know with dave that as he's a copper or hangs around with coppers, hes a lying Kumquat of a man. It was a freudian slip and this heathen is trying to take this from you, you gullible asscravat

Hey, I've made some howlers in my time, but on this occasion, I'm happy to say it was deliberate (granted it's not as funny as I thought it would be, but you can't have everything)

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?".  Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?  

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top?  That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.

Maybe he thought it would look good to knock out Shane Mosley...something no-one had ever done and only Vernon Forrest came close (but not that close) to achieving.

I'm really only playing Devil's Avocado here...Marg's actions and that of his trainers (I don't for a minute believe he was unaware of anything that went on) were disgusting and the fact he was allowed to fight afterwards says more about boxing than anything else....still, they welcomed Tyson back with open arms after his "transgressions" so when viewed alongside that, is what Marg did so terrible after all? (answer...yes, of course it is, but you get my point).

I have no problem with anyone thinking Margarito used "plaster wraps" prior to the Mosley fight but do take issue with those claiming it as fact rather than supposition.

Great spot! SLAYER have a lot to answer for.

Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

I thought you were victim to the 606v2 spellchecker.

You need to know with dave that as he's a copper or hangs around with coppers, hes a lying Kumquat of a man. It was a freudian slip and this heathen is trying to take this from you, you gullible asscravat

I would be offended if I knew what that was!

I'd argue plaster of paris is not that much harder than the knuckles of a bandaged clenched fist.

3fingers wrote:I'd argue plaster of paris is not that much harder than the knuckles of a bandaged clenched fist.

How would you know? Take it from a four fingered man, it's harder!

DuransHorse wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?".  Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?  

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top?  That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.

Maybe he thought it would look good to knock out Shane Mosley...something no-one had ever done and only Vernon Forrest came close (but not that close) to achieving.

I'm really only playing Devil's Avocado here...Marg's actions and that of his trainers (I don't for a minute believe he was unaware of anything that went on) were disgusting and the fact he was allowed to fight afterwards says more about boxing than anything else....still, they welcomed Tyson back with open arms after his "transgressions" so when viewed alongside that, is what Marg did so terrible after all? (answer...yes, of course it is, but you get my point).

I have no problem with anyone thinking Margarito used "plaster wraps" prior to the Mosley fight but do take issue with those claiming it as fact rather than supposition.

Great spot! SLAYER have a lot to answer for.

Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

I thought you were victim to the 606v2 spellchecker.

You need to know with dave that as he's a copper or hangs around with coppers, hes a lying Kumquat of a man. It was a freudian slip and this heathen is trying to take this from you, you gullible asscravat

I would be offended if I knew what that was!

It's a jackass for posh people

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?".  Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?  

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top?  That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.

Maybe he thought it would look good to knock out Shane Mosley...something no-one had ever done and only Vernon Forrest came close (but not that close) to achieving.

I'm really only playing Devil's Avocado here...Marg's actions and that of his trainers (I don't for a minute believe he was unaware of anything that went on) were disgusting and the fact he was allowed to fight afterwards says more about boxing than anything else....still, they welcomed Tyson back with open arms after his "transgressions" so when viewed alongside that, is what Marg did so terrible after all? (answer...yes, of course it is, but you get my point).

I have no problem with anyone thinking Margarito used "plaster wraps" prior to the Mosley fight but do take issue with those claiming it as fact rather than supposition.

Great spot! SLAYER have a lot to answer for.

Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

I thought you were victim to the 606v2 spellchecker.

You need to know with dave that as he's a copper or hangs around with coppers, hes a lying Kumquat of a man. It was a freudian slip and this heathen is trying to take this from you, you gullible asscravat

I would be offended if I knew what that was!

It's a jackass for posh people

I'm posh? Cheers!!

DuransHorse wrote:

3fingers wrote:I'd argue plaster of paris is not that much harder than the knuckles of a bandaged clenched fist.

How would you know?  Take it from a four fingered man, it's harder!

I'd have thought it got easier everytime but i'm happy to defer to the experienced

DAVE667 wrote:Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

Can I impishly suggest that we count ourselves lucky we don't know you every day Dave. I'm using 'impishly' there as a devil's adverb.

DuransHorse wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Unless proved otherwise, one can only say with any certainty that he was caught trying to cheat in the Mosley fight. It's like saying that Manny must have been taking supplements because of the tear he was on a few years back then and his bizarre attitude towards testing. Nothing ever proved and suspicion isn't evidence.

Innocent until guilty! Have to say was gutted when Margarito was caught! Was a huge fan

It's human nature for people to say "Well, this won't be the first time he's done it. No-one is that unlucky to get caught first time." and obviously it casts a huge shadow over everything Margarito did previously to the point where people will "see" things in order to prove their personal theory.

I recall staying up to watch Cotto/Margarito and just before the first bell decided to go with Tony. Only my now dead cat was there to hear me say it but I do admit feeling a bit of a chump as Cotto ran rings round him for the first few rounds but once he was caught on the nose and the blood started flowing, you could see Cotto struggling and Marg just walked him down. Great fight sadly tainted by the Mosley fight afterwards but my opinion on Cotto hasn't changed in that he marks up badly whenever he fights

Logically Dave, why after successfully beating Cotto did Margarito think "I know, why not use plaster in my wraps?".  Cotto was more highly ranked and feared at the time than Mosley, so what was the motivation to go down that road?  

My theory isn't concrete ( excuse the pun ), but Maragrito's very early career has 3 losses, then a long winning steak, so maybe he thought he needed to cheat to reach the top?  That is purely speculation but if we can all speculate about Manny's wrist size being an indicator of drug use then what the heck, I'll go out on a limb and say yes, I firmly believe that Margarito did use illegal wraps before Mosley.

Maybe he thought it would look good to knock out Shane Mosley...something no-one had ever done and only Vernon Forrest came close (but not that close) to achieving.

I'm really only playing Devil's Avocado here...Marg's actions and that of his trainers (I don't for a minute believe he was unaware of anything that went on) were disgusting and the fact he was allowed to fight afterwards says more about boxing than anything else....still, they welcomed Tyson back with open arms after his "transgressions" so when viewed alongside that, is what Marg did so terrible after all? (answer...yes, of course it is, but you get my point).

I have no problem with anyone thinking Margarito used "plaster wraps" prior to the Mosley fight but do take issue with those claiming it as fact rather than supposition.

Great spot! SLAYER have a lot to answer for.

Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

I thought you were victim to the 606v2 spellchecker.

You need to know with dave that as he's a copper or hangs around with coppers, hes a lying Kumquat of a man. It was a freudian slip and this heathen is trying to take this from you, you gullible asscravat

I would be offended if I knew what that was!

It's a jackass for posh people

I'm posh?  Cheers!!

I can just imagine you now, walking around uptown calling everyone an asscravat, then beaming at them and eventually being beaten to death by a pastry chef

milkyboy wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

Can I impishly suggest that we count ourselves lucky we don't know you every day Dave. I'm using 'impishly' there as a devil's adverb.

I'm certain the fact you don't know me fills you with pimpish dilute, Milky (for the dippy c*nts out there that's "impish delight")

DAVE667 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

Can I impishly suggest that we count ourselves lucky we don't know you every day Dave. I'm using 'impishly' there as a devil's adverb.

I'm certain the fact you don't know me fills you with pimpish dilute, Milky (for the dippy c*nts out there that's "impish delight")

The lady protests far too much

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

Can I impishly suggest that we count ourselves lucky we don't know you every day Dave. I'm using 'impishly' there as a devil's adverb.

I'm certain the fact you don't know me fills you with pimpish dilute, Milky (for the dippy c*nts out there that's "impish delight")

The lady protests far too much

I'm sure she does when in your presence yet as you will undoubtedly view her as a sub-species, I doubt it registers with you

What's impish delight? Naughty angel delight? A small piece of Turkish delight? Whatever it is, I'd rather you didn't fill me with it.

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

Can I impishly suggest that we count ourselves lucky we don't know you every day Dave. I'm using 'impishly' there as a devil's adverb.

I'm certain the fact you don't know me fills you with pimpish dilute, Milky (for the dippy c*nts out there that's "impish delight")

The lady protests far too much

I'm sure she does when in your presence yet as you will undoubtedly view her as a sub-species, I doubt it registers with you

If that was true I would not be replying to you heathen and the bitch wouldn't be banging against the Frak cage disrupting my posting.

3fingers wrote:I'd argue plaster of paris is not that much harder than the knuckles of a bandaged clenched fist.

Ok let's meet up. I can punch you with my fist then hit you with a brick to see which you prefer.

Deal?

milkyboy wrote:What's impish delight? Naughty angel delight? A small piece of Turkish delight? Whatever it is, I'd rather you didn't fill me with it.

An imp is a cheeky little devil so impish delight.....

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

Can I impishly suggest that we count ourselves lucky we don't know you every day Dave. I'm using 'impishly' there as a devil's adverb.

I'm certain the fact you don't know me fills you with pimpish dilute, Milky (for the dippy c*nts out there that's "impish delight")

The lady protests far too much

I'm sure she does when in your presence yet as you will undoubtedly view her as a sub-species, I doubt it registers with you

If that was true I would not be replying to you heathen and the bitch wouldn't be banging against the Frak cage disrupting my posting.

Surprised you haven't set it alight yet

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

Can I impishly suggest that we count ourselves lucky we don't know you every day Dave. I'm using 'impishly' there as a devil's adverb.

I'm certain the fact you don't know me fills you with pimpish dilute, Milky (for the dippy c*nts out there that's "impish delight")

The lady protests far too much

I'm sure she does when in your presence yet as you will undoubtedly view her as a sub-species, I doubt it registers with you

If that was true I would not be replying to you heathen and the bitch wouldn't be banging against the Frak cage disrupting my posting.

Surprised you haven't set it alight yet

I made it from fire retardant materials before I put her in, anticipating the heat generated by our vigorous and entirely mutual lovemaking

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

Can I impishly suggest that we count ourselves lucky we don't know you every day Dave. I'm using 'impishly' there as a devil's adverb.

I'm certain the fact you don't know me fills you with pimpish dilute, Milky (for the dippy c*nts out there that's "impish delight")

The lady protests far too much

I'm sure she does when in your presence yet as you will undoubtedly view her as a sub-species, I doubt it registers with you

If that was true I would not be replying to you heathen and the bitch wouldn't be banging against the Frak cage disrupting my posting.

Surprised you haven't set it alight yet

I made it from fire retardant materials before I put her in, anticipating the heat generated by our vigorous and entirely mutual lovemaking

She's not fire retardant though is she? You open the door, chuck in some petrol and a lighted match and slam the door shut...bloody hell do I have to teach you lot everything?

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Bad luck fellas. I usually write/say that or "Devil's Advocaat" so sorry to disappoint but it's a deliberate typo. Count yourself lucky you don't know me, it's one of the annoying things I do for sh!ts and giggles, deliberate misuse of words in conversation...sadly you can't see the glint in my eye when I do it

Can I impishly suggest that we count ourselves lucky we don't know you every day Dave. I'm using 'impishly' there as a devil's adverb.

I'm certain the fact you don't know me fills you with pimpish dilute, Milky (for the dippy c*nts out there that's "impish delight")

The lady protests far too much

I'm sure she does when in your presence yet as you will undoubtedly view her as a sub-species, I doubt it registers with you

If that was true I would not be replying to you heathen and the bitch wouldn't be banging against the Frak cage disrupting my posting.

Surprised you haven't set it alight yet

I made it from fire retardant materials before I put her in, anticipating the heat generated by our vigorous and entirely mutual lovemaking

She's not fire retardant though is she? You open the door, chuck in some petrol and a lighted match and slam the door shut...bloody hell do I have to teach you lot everything?

Shh Master Dave, they'll find out the lengths you'll go to, to avoid having to look for another job.

Coxy001 wrote:

3fingers wrote:I'd argue plaster of paris is not that much harder than the knuckles of a bandaged clenched fist.

Ok let's meet up. I can punch you with my fist then hit you with a brick to see which you prefer.

Deal?

I think a few would fork out for the ppv for you attempting that one coxy. I suspect you'll wish you negotiated a better deal.

Margarito almost certainly had loaded gloves for fights before Mosley. His trainer was a cheat who knowingly loaded his gloves. The issue was whether Margarito was ever aware that his wraps were illegal or not. It wasnt the reason Mayweather didnt fight him either.

Been talking to Floyd about it have you ??

I dont need to.

I feel the same as Adam about the hand wrap revelations. Really disappointed when I found out. I totally bought into the first fight with Cotto. I loved the narrative of the fight; unbeaten Cotto boxing his ears off until Margarito dragged him into a war and broke him down. Even though Cotto was and is my favourite fighter, I found it fascinating.

Really disappointing to find out that what I believed happened may not have been genuine.

Obviously I have no more proof than anyone else but I believe Margarito's gloves were loaded that night. Just can't see the alternative.

On the plus side, it did set up the ultimate grudge match. The second fight was nowhere near as good to watch but the catharsis for Cotto made it worthwhile. Loved that they weren't all buddy buddy at the end and Cotto just stood there staring at him while the doctors were tending to margarito's face.

Also, hand wraps or not, Margarito had corn rows in the second fight. Deserved to have his face caved in.

Coxy001 wrote:

3fingers wrote:I'd argue plaster of paris is not that much harder than the knuckles of a bandaged clenched fist.

Ok let's meet up. I can punch you with my fist then hit you with a brick to see which you prefer.

Deal?

Bricks weigh lots, you might punch harder to begin with but then you'd fatigue. Regardless, bricks and plaster of paris are very different, especially when covered with a glove.

Either way, if we did meet up, I have no integrity, so if he hit me in the head with a brick I'd say your fist was harder anyway, just to be right.

Maybe it would be a better if i hit you in the face? You might get a more satisfactory/legitimate answer (even if you lied to me you'd still know the real truth).

In all honesty I really think I could punch harder without a brick compared to hitting someone with a brick (if I was using a punching technique). First, I couldn't swing as fast with a brick, second (and perhaps most importantly) it would take me off balance and mess with my mechanics, thus delivery.

If i thought plaster if paris would cause more damage, and i could get away with it, I'd use it.

I'm a bit confused here fingers, are you suggesting that plaster of paris doesn't cause more damage?

One look at Billy Collins face is all the evidence you need and that was against a relative powder puff puncher in Resto.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm a bit confused here fingers, are you suggesting that plaster of paris doesn't cause more damage?

One look at Billy Collins face is all the evidence you need and that was against a relative powder puff puncher in Resto.

Resto didn't use plaster of Paris - he removed the padding from his gloves.

He later admitted to doing both Haz, he was punching with rocks in an unpadded glove.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3329115

Bloody hell, I never knew that. Shocking.

Get hold of the documentary Haz, it's chilling and shocking at the same time.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm a bit confused here fingers, are you suggesting that plaster of paris doesn't cause more damage?

One look at Billy Collins face is all the evidence you need and that was against a relative powder puff puncher in Resto.

I'm not sure what I'm suggesting to be honest hammer. I think I'm just saying a clenched knuckles wrapped in bandage are as nearly as hard as something really hard, like plaster of paris or a brick or bone.