Telegraph reports Premiership plan to scrap relegation

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:30 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/premiership/11438598/English-Aviva-Premiership-clubs-in-new-plan-to-end-relegation.html

England’s leading clubs are proposing a radical plan to expand the Premiership for the start of the 2016-17 season and then scrap promotion and relegation – which would be the biggest overhaul of club rugby since the game went professional.

It is understood that the proposal is to increase the top flight from 12 to 14 teams by a meritocratic process before dispensing with promotion and relegation, which have been a bedrock of English rugby since leagues were introduced in 1987.

The fine details of how the new league structure would come into existence and how the new fixture schedules might work have yet to be ironed out. But it is understood that the concept has the support of the majority of the Premiership clubs following a meeting of owners and shareholders on Monday.

The full support of the 14 clubs who own Premiership shares – which includes Championship sides Bristol, Worcester and Yorkshire Carnegie – would be required before the plan could be agreed as policy. It would then have to be put before the Rugby Football Union for approval.

However, it is understood that further meetings are already planned to discuss the detail, with supporters of the plan confident that those opposing it can be persuaded of its merit.

by HammerofThunor Fri 27 Feb 2015, 8:06 am

In the past, officially, they've been for promotion/relegation. But it's always seemed that most were really for getting rid of it. It is quite shocking that those teams that will probably be safe are for it Whistle

I'm not against the idea as long as there is some method for clubs outside the fence gaining their way in. Licenses should be reviewed every X years (3 or 4?) and be based on performance, both on and off the field, and location.

What I'd prefer to do is ring fence pro rugby

by **LondonTiger** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 8:08 am

Yup, I would much rather we brought the Championship into the Premiership fold and then ring fence two Pro divisions but still with the licensing idea so that progression from semi-pro was not impossible.

by Sin é Fri 27 Feb 2015, 9:12 am

So now these guys want to copy the Pro12 Very Happy

Not too long ago the Nigels were claiming that the Pro12 was the devil

because it didn't have promotion and relegation.

This is going to be fun! About time the RFU stood up for rugby - otherwise these guys are going to destroy it. n

by Bathman_in_London Fri 27 Feb 2015, 9:28 am

I'd be interested to know what the meritocratic process would be. Bristol and Worcester could hold their own in the AP, but given that Leeds are so far off the pace its hard to see how they could be considered for promotion or how/why they would vote to be cut adrift forever.

An unintended consequence of this may be London Scottish moving leagues, unless there was a licence system, its hard to see why they would want to stay.

by MichaelT Fri 27 Feb 2015, 9:34 am

I really hope this doesn't happen. Even though Newcastle Falcons were relegated, and are at the bottom practically every season, it is still far better having something to play for all season. Between England and France there is 6 out of 7 World Cup Final appearances, and the other time was 1995 when the losing semi-finalists were who? England and France.

To me the reason for these appearances is the players are used to playing for something every week, the intensity is maintained all the time.

I would rather we got rid of European rugby than relegation.

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 9:37 am

Problem with scrapping relegation is that it means that the haves and have nots continues.

How do you pick the 14? Someone is going to be aggrieved on missing out.

I prefer Londontiger's idea.

by doctor_grey Fri 27 Feb 2015, 9:50 am

Sin é wrote:

So now these guys want to copy the Pro12 Not too long ago the Nigels were claiming that the Pro12 was the because it didn't have promotion and relegation.

This is going to be fun! About time the RFU stood up for rugby - otherwise these guys are going to destroy it. n

Actually they want to copy the NFL. As with most sports, they envy the financial certainty and growth of the NFL. This has been apparent for quite a while now.

Any by the way, who gives a toss about some dude named Nigel anyway?

by BamBam Fri 27 Feb 2015, 10:11 am

The NFL is completely unique though due to the way players come into the league, same with all the American sports. I guess playing your own sports and ignoring everyone else's does have some advantages, means things like transfer fees are completely obsolete

by Tiger/Chief Fri 27 Feb 2015, 10:12 am

If a team in the Championship is a well run club built on solid foundations I would hope that there would be a chance for that club to join the party.

by Sin é Fri 27 Feb 2015, 10:18 am

Way too late in the game to be trying to copy the NFL. That was set up in a different time. I believe only 2 teams remain since its since its inception, so it mustn't have worked out great for everyone.

A less greedy way to do it would be to go the LNR route who support the 2nd division as well - i.e., so if a team is promoted they are funded as well.

As for having a draft - how would that work? Don't lots of clubs have feeder amateur clubs anyway? And how would that encourage any club to develop players in their academy if they know they can be taken from them. For example, Manu Tualagi came through the Leicester Academy (I think) - he could end up with Bristol - why would you bother developing players if you know that is going to happen or is the intention to turn the Championship clubs into academies for the Premiership?

by Geordie Fri 27 Feb 2015, 11:03 am

Ah I don't want this too happen.

We've had our issues with relegation but hey if your the worst team you go down simple as.

What about teams like Exeter who have been a breath of fresh air?

The only thing that should change is the stupid playoff for promotion from the championship! And possibly two up two down?

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 11:28 am

Geordiefalcon can't argue with that.

Playoff system in the championship is farcical.

Exeter have indeed been one of the biggest success stories.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 11:46 am

Exeter have been great - did not top the Championship Table though.

by Geordie Fri 27 Feb 2015, 11:53 am

That was the past LT, we'll suitably ignore that fact Wink

In fact with nurturing the rugby hot bed in that area and strong business plans...they could become a major team.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Fri 27 Feb 2015, 11:59 am

LondonTiger wrote:Exeter have been great - did not top the Championship Table though.

Beat me to it. Exeter qualified only by winning the "farcical" playoffs - and they were truly farcical back then.

Playoffs aren't so much the problem, it's the timing of them. So late in the season that there's little opportunity for the promotees to recruit sensibly.

London Welsh have mucked up big time this term - they made a much better fist of it last time, and other promoted teams have survived.

Run the Championship in one block, finishing in Feb/March, then have an end-of-season B&I Cup or mixed Championship/Prem A Cup. That would give the winners a much better chance to plan for the next season.

by Sin é Fri 27 Feb 2015, 12:24 pm

You'll need to be reducing your competitions, rather than increasing them. 14 teams mean 26 games + playoffs for starters. Then the LV Cup games, + Champs Cup!

There won't be any English Prem players involved in the Lions Tour if that were to happen (see problems for French club players being excluded of Lions).

It looks like the Premiership Clubs are looking to take over the running of rugby from the RFU. It will be interesting to see how the RFU handle this one.

by HammerofThunor Fri 27 Feb 2015, 12:58 pm

The LV Cup is part of the same agreement that has promotion protected. If the Premiership increases to 14 the LV could be scrapped or reduced in size, or whatever.

The Lions tours are protected. The problem was the Lions management wanted more time than the IRB granted.

I fail to see how that would make any difference to the current system in terms of running rugby. It would just be the same teams, rather than adding the odd one for a season (Bristol and Worcester still part of the PRL aren't they?).

by Sin é Fri 27 Feb 2015, 1:07 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:The LV Cup is part of the same agreement that has promotion protected. If the Premiership increases to 14 the LV could be scrapped or reduced in size, or whatever.

The Lions tours are protected. The problem was the Lions management wanted more time than the IRB granted.

I fail to see how that would make any difference to the current system in terms of running rugby. It would just be the same teams, rather than adding the odd one for a season (Bristol and Worcester still part of the PRL aren't they?).

Its the extra games that are the problem - the French final was played the same day the Lions were playing in Hongkong the last time. Nathan Hines had to leave his French Club to go on the tour to SA because Perp were in the final.

Added to that, Jonathan Sexton had 2 weeks off between the end of the last tour and the start of the season in France (and he was late for the start of their preseason which started while he was still on tour with the Lions).

I suppose you could drop the playoffs (but they are a bit of a money spinner).

by Exiledinborders Fri 27 Feb 2015, 1:30 pm

Sin é wrote:You'll need to be reducing your competitions, rather than increasing them. 14 teams mean 26 games + playoffs for starters. Then the LV Cup games, + Champs Cup!

There won't be any English Prem players involved in the Lions Tour if that were to happen (see problems for French club players being excluded of Lions).

It looks like the Premiership Clubs are looking to take over the running of rugby from the RFU. It will be interesting to see how the RFU handle this one.

The obvious thing to go is the LV Cup.

As for the Lions it makes no sense at all to organise English rugby based on a tounament once every four years or so involving probably less than ten English players.

The London Welsh situation this year has taught us two things:

The current championship play-off ststem does not work. LW are not remotely good enough to play the AP
The rugby played by London Irish and Newcastle has been better to watch freed from threat of relegation

I would go for a fourteen club league and promote, Bristol, Worcester and Leeds to join top eleven from AP because I think all three could produce good teams with the security of no relegation. I think it would be a great pity to have no representative from Yorkshire.

by nathan Fri 27 Feb 2015, 1:33 pm

i see Sine is off on one again.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Feb 2015, 1:43 pm

nathan wrote:i see Sine is off on one again.

He's worried. This news puts an enormous amount of pressure on the pro12. Thankfully.

by LeinsterFan4life Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:04 pm

There is no way the RFU will allow this. Their job is to promote and grow the game and a close shop league would do the opposite of that.

The likes of Rotherham and Plymouth are already really struggling financially and there is no way they could survive as a pro club if this happened. This would result in hundreds of job losses.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:16 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:There is no way the RFU will allow this. Their job is to promote and grow the game and a close shop league would do the opposite of that.

The likes of Rotherham and Plymouth are already really struggling financially and there is no way they could survive as a pro club if this happened. This would result in hundreds of job losses.

Smell the fear.

Of course the RFU would allow it. There could be a tie in with BT / Sky with the 6N while they are at it.

serious dosh. Everything has a price where serious dosh is concerned.

by geoff999rugby Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:24 pm

So for years the Pro12 has been criticised for no relegation and now this ?

This move would devastate the professional game in the Championship and the English game will be weaker for it.
Always had a suspicion that if Bristol got their finger out and actually got promoted something like this would happen - means the Premiership can claim they are not actually kicking anyone out of the league.

It would be the end of the LV Cup
The welsh team can forget anything other than the Pro12.

by Sin é Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:28 pm

[quote="Exiledinborders"]

Sin é wrote:You'll need to be reducing your competitions, rather than increasing them. 14 teams mean 26 games + playoffs for starters. Then the LV Cup games, + Champs Cup!

There won't be any English Prem players involved in the Lions Tour if that were to happen (see problems for French club players being excluded of Lions).

It looks like the Premiership Clubs are looking to take over the running of rugby from the RFU. It will be interesting to see how the RFU handle this one.

The obvious thing to go is the LV Cup.

Ah, so you are ready to dump your Welsh friends in the Poopie. They need that money.

As for the Lions it makes no sense at all to organise English rugby based on a tounament once every four years or so involving probably less than ten English players.

How do you think the English players would feel if they were cut out of the Lions, not to mention the loss of income it would be? The players can earn up to 80K for 6 weeks work, not to mention what the RFU earns (and which goes back into developing rugby).

The London Welsh situation this year has taught us two things:

The current championship play-off ststem does not work. LW are not remotely good enough to play the AP
The rugby played by London Irish and Newcastle has been better to watch freed from threat of relegation

Improve the payment for teams coming up. Its a disgrace that teams coming up get 1.5m and everyone else gets 4m.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:29 pm

I laugh. All I can do is laugh.

And to remember the deeply divisive philosophical battles we all had and how never the twain could meet on such a fundamental issue?

Another part of the jigsaw falling into place to end any capping limitation whatsoever.

We outsiders can read the future of AP more accurately than the lads who watch it week in and week out.

Oh the Great Oracle has spoken again! Wink

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:29 pm

If anyone in the Welsh Regions "Actually believed" that they would get into the Premiership for their part in the skullduggery that went on in the last few years then I have a pocket full of "Magic Beans" that they might be interested in.

Akin to believing "I'll just put it in a little bit. If you don't like it I'll take it out"

by **LondonTiger** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:32 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:If anyone in the Welsh Regions "Actually believed" that they would get into the Premiership for their part in the skullduggery that went on in the last few years then I have a pocket full of "Magic Beans" that they might be interested in.

Akin to believing "I'll just put it in a little bit. If you don't like it I'll take it out"

Ah but have you actually visited a building if you just play around in the foyer.

by Sin é Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:32 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:There is no way the RFU will allow this. Their job is to promote and grow the game and a close shop league would do the opposite of that.

The likes of Rotherham and Plymouth are already really struggling financially and there is no way they could survive as a pro club if this happened. This would result in hundreds of job losses.

Smell the fear.

Of course the RFU would allow it. There could be a tie in with BT / Sky with the 6N while they are at it.

serious dosh. Everything has a price where serious dosh is concerned.

Wales are the only ones who are going to be affected by this from the Pro12 countries.

The Pro12 should invite the Cornish Pirates into the Pro12!

by HammerofThunor Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:38 pm

Sin é wrote:Improve the payment for teams coming up. Its a disgrace that teams coming up get 1.5m and everyone else gets 4m.

Although I agree with the principle, everyone else doesn't get £4M. The top earners get £4M. The bottom (Welsh) get £1.5M. The rest are spread between. I think Saints only get a bit more the Welsh and a big part of it is they don't run an academy to get RFU money that way.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:50 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:Improve the payment for teams coming up. Its a disgrace that teams coming up get 1.5m and everyone else gets 4m.

Although I agree with the principle, everyone else doesn't get £4M. The top earners get £4M. The bottom (Welsh) get £1.5M. The rest are spread between. I think Saints only get a bit more the Welsh and a big part of it is they don't run an academy to get RFU money that way.

But the top was given a better shot at staying on the top and the bottom were given just enough to keep them on the bottom - in theory yes (as sides can buck the trend of adversity once in a while) but officially sanctioned nonetheless.

It's why I've always had no love for Promotion/Relegation Leagues - they're designed to kiss the ass of the top teams (sponsorship, rich sugardaddies, strongest player buying clout etc) and keep the bottom feeders feeding where they are - at the bottom. Too afraid to think big or plan for it because they're too busy trying to plan out their year and use their resources best to simply stay up.

It's always been said by certain English fans here that at least a Promotional League gives some teams, that aren't in the running at the top, something to fight about/for at the end of the season. Yes - and that was always the problem. The something was the black hole underneath them and not the shining star way way above them. If the trap door is closed, the bottom feeders can think about serious long term plans.

by LeinsterFan4life Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:59 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:There is no way the RFU will allow this. Their job is to promote and grow the game and a close shop league would do the opposite of that.

The likes of Rotherham and Plymouth are already really struggling financially and there is no way they could survive as a pro club if this happened. This would result in hundreds of job losses.

Smell the fear.

Of course the RFU would allow it. There could be a tie in with BT / Sky with the 6N while they are at it.

serious dosh. Everything has a price where serious dosh is concerned.

Fear of what? I would be fearfull for the Championship clubs and their fans and also the Championship is almost a 5th province with the amount of Irish players over there. Clubs like Rotherham do a great job developing young talent.

by HammerofThunor Fri 27 Feb 2015, 5:04 pm

SecretFly wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:Improve the payment for teams coming up. Its a disgrace that teams coming up get 1.5m and everyone else gets 4m.

Although I agree with the principle, everyone else doesn't get £4M. The top earners get £4M. The bottom (Welsh) get £1.5M. The rest are spread between. I think Saints only get a bit more the Welsh and a big part of it is they don't run an academy to get RFU money that way.

But the top was given a better shot at staying on the top and the bottom were given just enough to keep them on the bottom - in theory yes (as sides can buck the trend of adversity once in a while) but officially sanctioned nonetheless.

It's why I've always had no love for Promotion/Relegation Leagues - they're designed to kiss the ass of the top teams (sponsorship, rich sugardaddies, strongest player buying clout etc) and keep the bottom feeders feeding where they are - at the bottom. Too afraid to think big or plan for it because they're too busy trying to plan out their year and use their resources best to simply stay up.

It's always been said by certain English fans here that at least a Promotional League gives some teams, that aren't in the running at the top, something to fight about/for at the end of the season. Yes - and that was always the problem. The something was the black hole underneath them and not the shining star way way above them. If the trap door is closed, the bottom feeders can think about serious long term plans.

I think most people who want to keep promotion/relegation are more interested in promotion than relegation. It's about teams having a route to the top. Also, you're not a fan of Promotion/Relegation Leagues because it keeps the top at the top and the bottom at the bottom. The only alternative is ring-fencing isn't it? Which surely does a better job at keeping them seperate...by definition pretty much.

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 5:09 pm

SecretFly wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:Improve the payment for teams coming up. Its a disgrace that teams coming up get 1.5m and everyone else gets 4m.

Although I agree with the principle, everyone else doesn't get £4M. The top earners get £4M. The bottom (Welsh) get £1.5M. The rest are spread between. I think Saints only get a bit more the Welsh and a big part of it is they don't run an academy to get RFU money that way.

But the top was given a better shot at staying on the top and the bottom were given just enough to keep them on the bottom - in theory yes (as sides can buck the trend of adversity once in a while) but officially sanctioned nonetheless.

It's why I've always had no love for Promotion/Relegation Leagues - they're designed to kiss the ass of the top teams (sponsorship, rich sugardaddies, strongest player buying clout etc) and keep the bottom feeders feeding where they are - at the bottom. Too afraid to think big or plan for it because they're too busy trying to plan out their year and use their resources best to simply stay up.

It's always been said by certain English fans here that at least a Promotional League gives some teams, that aren't in the running at the top, something to fight about/for at the end of the season. Yes - and that was always the problem. The something was the black hole underneath them and not the shining star way way above them. If the trap door is closed, the bottom feeders can think about serious long term plans.

Perhaps but also when the trap door is closed sometimes the bottom feeders as you call them stop trying because they don't need to. E.g. look at Edinburgh in the Pro12 - they knew they couldn't be relegated so they threw all their energy into the HC but it meant they didn't try in the Pro12.

Exeter are a successful example of the current system.

London Welsh are currently poorly run - they blame the inequality in payments but it is ultimately the treatment of their players who won them promotion that has seen them suffer. Relegation will see LW dropping and perhaps a club more suited for the AP to come up.

by doctor_grey Fri 27 Feb 2015, 5:45 pm

Sin é wrote:Way too late in the game to be trying to copy the NFL. That was set up in a different time. I believe only 2 teams remain since its since its inception, so it mustn't have worked out great for everyone.

A less greedy way to do it would be to go the LNR route who support the 2nd division as well - i.e., so if a team is promoted they are funded as well.

As for having a draft - how would that work? Don't lots of clubs have feeder amateur clubs anyway? And how would that encourage any club to develop players in their academy if they know they can be taken from them. For example, Manu Tualagi came through the Leicester Academy (I think) - he could end up with Bristol - why would you bother developing players if you know that is going to happen or is the intention to turn the Championship clubs into academies for the Premiership?

The aspects I believe on which they want to use the NFL as a model model is having a stable grouping of teams which makes it easier to distribute funds, negotiate contrracts, ties clubs closer together in the common interest, and so on. In other words a stable and predictable business.

Their draft of university or other young players, although the initial point of entry for most potential NFL players, is not something which would be important or relevent to Rugby where we have a path to the top level. Only thing important is the overall busioness model.

Coming out of English club Rugby and seeing the business side of the NFL in action and up close is mnd blowing. Despite their problems, which are usually freely and openly publicised in a way which drarfs anything in our Rugby, the NFL is an unbelieveably well-oiled businbess machine. All their teams, rivals or not, all work together for the common goal. by itself, that is a worthy aspiration, is it not?

by formerly known as Sam Fri 27 Feb 2015, 6:22 pm

I see comments on LW funding. That's not a disgrace, LW are a disgrace. Their refusal to build a working club is what has limited them. They plough every penny they have into the first team. They are a commercial disaster and so garner little interstellar from players. They have no academy and so have to spend money to build a squad as opposed to the rest of the AP who regularly promote a academy players. The only sympathy I have is that the play off final is close to the start of the AP season and even that is tempered by the fact LW would never be promoted without it.

The idea of ring fencing is a terrible one. I hope this idea is quickly ditched. The current system is working well at the minute. Let it continue.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 9:25 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:Improve the payment for teams coming up. Its a disgrace that teams coming up get 1.5m and everyone else gets 4m.

Although I agree with the principle, everyone else doesn't get £4M. The top earners get £4M. The bottom (Welsh) get £1.5M. The rest are spread between. I think Saints only get a bit more the Welsh and a big part of it is they don't run an academy to get RFU money that way.

But the top was given a better shot at staying on the top and the bottom were given just enough to keep them on the bottom - in theory yes (as sides can buck the trend of adversity once in a while) but officially sanctioned nonetheless.

It's why I've always had no love for Promotion/Relegation Leagues - they're designed to kiss the ass of the top teams (sponsorship, rich sugardaddies, strongest player buying clout etc) and keep the bottom feeders feeding where they are - at the bottom. Too afraid to think big or plan for it because they're too busy trying to plan out their year and use their resources best to simply stay up.

It's always been said by certain English fans here that at least a Promotional League gives some teams, that aren't in the running at the top, something to fight about/for at the end of the season. Yes - and that was always the problem. The something was the black hole underneath them and not the shining star way way above them. If the trap door is closed, the bottom feeders can think about serious long term plans.

I think most people who want to keep promotion/relegation are more interested in promotion than relegation. It's about teams having a route to the top. Also, you're not a fan of Promotion/Relegation Leagues because it keeps the top at the top and the bottom at the bottom. The only alternative is ring-fencing isn't it? Which surely does a better job at keeping them seperate...by definition pretty much.

Separate isn't necessarily Up and Down. AP has often claimed to be a better league than Top14. Top14 would boast that it is better than all others including AP. Pro12 even boasted at a time that the European winners belonged to it. Separate is a distinct line where everyone knows where they are but have a long term chance to give themselves a real chance of improving and challenging.
You can't deny that much of the worries - both financial, player squad quality and business generation - of the teams frequenting the bottom of AP is usually just doing enough to try to stay there. They don't have any long term agendas to build on because they are in and out, and investors don't want to know about investing unless they know they have long term guarantees. And players are reluctant to commit because they are up and down. So the top self-perpetuate themselves at the top.

Let me put it this way then. Ringfenced isn't ideal in an ideal world. But neither is Promotion/Relegation. I guess no format is prefect. But my personal opinion is that Promotion pretends it helps the little people but it truth it simply keeps the cream at the top.

by HammerofThunor Fri 27 Feb 2015, 9:33 pm

Ok, so both keep the top at the top. But promotion pretends to all teams to rise but ring fencing is honest with it's closed shop? That's fine, unfortunately you have Exeter as the example where that's not true. Teams can plan, can make their way up. The bigger problem (IMO) is that a lot of clubs are poorly run and want more than they can 'afford', trying to take shortcuts which turn out to be dead ends.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 9:40 pm

Everyone keeps mentioning Exeter...grand. Keep mentioning it. But it's still an exception to a rule side. And what is the detail on the exception to the rule? Who funds them, who is the sugar daddy, who came in to make the impact so dramatic? etc.

It's still an exception to the general rule. And my criticisms included an acknowledgement of the exceptions: "in theory yes (as sides can buck the trend of adversity once in a while)"

But an exception is still what it is.

The truth now is that the majority of the PRL members seem to agree with me and not the fans who argued incessantly against me and others all through last year.

I think this is all tied into making the end of a salary cap more acceptable to the sides at the bottom of the AP. It allows them the notion that they will have it within their power to fight more competitively (long term) within a ring-fenced League.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 10:17 pm

It would seem that the discussions are not to exclude promotion entirely - just not to make it automatic. May just be semantics of course.

Anyway, I have organised enough shareholders that we could force an EGM should Leicester be looking to sign up to something that completely removes any chance of a team breaking through into the elite.

by nth Fri 27 Feb 2015, 10:35 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:

So now these guys want to copy the Pro12 Not too long ago the Nigels were claiming that the Pro12 was the because it didn't have promotion and relegation.

This is going to be fun! About time the RFU stood up for rugby - otherwise these guys are going to destroy it. n
Actually they want to copy the NFL. As with most sports, they envy the financial certainty and growth of the NFL. This has been apparent for quite a while now.

Any by the way, who gives a toss about some dude named Nigel anyway?

Musical Interlude

by nathan Fri 27 Feb 2015, 10:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:Everyone keeps mentioning Exeter...grand. Keep mentioning it. But it's still an exception to a rule side. And what is the detail on the exception to the rule? Who funds them, who is the sugar daddy, who came in to make the impact so dramatic? etc.

It's still an exception to the general rule. And my criticisms included an acknowledgement of the exceptions: "in theory yes (as sides can buck the trend of adversity once in a while)"

But an exception is still what it is.

The truth now is that the majority of the PRL members seem to agree with me and not the fans who argued incessantly against me and others all through last year.

I think this is all tied into making the end of a salary cap more acceptable to the sides at the bottom of the AP. It allows them the notion that they will have it within their power to fight more competitively (long term) within a ring-fenced League.

Saints could be used as another example. They don't recieve much more money than London Welsh yet they have managed to get themselves promoted and are now at the top of the pile.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 11:13 pm

nathan wrote:

Saints could be used as another example. They don't recieve much more money than London Welsh yet they have managed to get themselves promoted and are now at the top of the pile.

That's the Saints that have been in the Premiership for 16 of the last 17 years and have won it once, been runners-up once and have been 5th twice, 4th a few times, and 2nd a few times? The same Saints that won the HEC once and were runners up once and won the Challenge cup twice?

I think the word we're looking for now is 'anomaly' rather than 'exception' Wink

Their year of relegation was an 'anomaly'

by formerly known as Sam Sat 28 Feb 2015, 7:58 am

The year if relegation was on the back of poor management a year in the Championship allowed them to rebuild and return a far better team. Ditto Quins and Falcons. Generally the promoted teams are competitive upon promotion. LW are the exception.

In the talk of sugar daddies. Most clubs operate without one. Only Sarries and Bath are known to run at losses paid for by the owners. The likes of Tigers, Saints, Chiefs and Quins are businesses.

by doctor_grey Sat 28 Feb 2015, 1:34 pm

nth wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:

So now these guys want to copy the Pro12 Not too long ago the Nigels were claiming that the Pro12 was the because it didn't have promotion and relegation.

This is going to be fun! About time the RFU stood up for rugby - otherwise these guys are going to destroy it. n
Actually they want to copy the NFL. As with most sports, they envy the financial certainty and growth of the NFL. This has been apparent for quite a while now.

Any by the way, who gives a toss about some dude named Nigel anyway?

Musical Interlude

you win.
except you have no actual video for the second one? He voice felt like putting a little cream extra in my morning cappuccino.

by doctor_grey Sat 28 Feb 2015, 1:44 pm

LondonTiger wrote:It would seem that the discussions are not to exclude promotion entirely - just not to make it automatic. May just be semantics of course.

Anyway, I have organised enough shareholders that we could force an EGM should Leicester be looking to sign up to something that completely removes any chance of a team breaking through into the elite.

As I read this, I just received an email on the same subject from Saints. I would guess this is happening at other clubs similar to ours.

I would like to see changes to the promotion process to include raw financials as well as raw performance. But then, all Premiership sides would have to meet these financial standards. That was a legal learning from the London Welsh suit. And, one which seems appropriate and correct. A positive of a revised, not eliminated, promotion/relegation process would probably put the knife in any more credible notions of ending the salary cap. Would be good to see that put away for good.

by nth Sat 28 Feb 2015, 3:13 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
nth wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:

So now these guys want to copy the Pro12 Not too long ago the Nigels were claiming that the Pro12 was the because it didn't have promotion and relegation.

This is going to be fun! About time the RFU stood up for rugby - otherwise these guys are going to destroy it. n
Actually they want to copy the NFL. As with most sports, they envy the financial certainty and growth of the NFL. This has been apparent for quite a while now.

Any by the way, who gives a toss about some dude named Nigel anyway?

Musical Interlude

Spoiler:

Spoiler:
you win.
except you have no actual video for the second one? He voice felt like putting a little cream extra in my morning cappuccino.

Would that give it a rising head? Au lait la!

I'm old enough to have liked the original, but also old enough to be too easily won over by a coquettish French cover.

by doctor_grey Sun 01 Mar 2015, 12:25 pm

C'est fantastique.
amour.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 08 Mar 2015, 8:29 pm

John Taylor's views from ESPNScrum. Seems he would quite liek to see London Welsh drop down two divisions and become a genuine Exiles club again:

It feels almost traitorous to say this but I now believe automatic promotion and relegation between the Premiership and Championship should be abandoned and that doing so would be in the best interests of everybody involved. It was a bitter pill but now it is swallowed I also believe it is vital that we get on with it, if only to stop a lot of good rugby men throwing away more good money.
It has been difficult to come to terms with - I fought tooth and nail to get London Welsh promoted first time round because they had earned the right to be there - but, sadly, the facts speak for themselves. The gap between the Premiership and Championship is becoming a chasm, unbridgeable without the support of a hugely wealthy backer, and it is time we stopped pretending that the English game can sustain two divisions of full-time professional rugby - only French rugby can generate enough cash to do that.
Discussions have been going on behind closed doors for months, partly precipitated by London Welsh's predicament but also because everybody knows the present structure is unsustainable, and the reality is that there are almost certainly no more than 14 clubs with any aspirations to be a part of the top tier.
Wait, I can hear the cynics already thinking this a last desperate attempt to prevent London Welsh being demoted. Not true, going forward, I can see no future for any of the three 'Exile' clubs in the top two tiers of English rugby - more of that later.
'Owners' such as Nigel Wray of Saracens have long advocated the total ring fencing of the Premiership arguing that turning the top clubs into franchises would make rugby much more attractive to investors - great for those clubs like Saracens who happened to be at the top when the game became professional but anathema to those, like me, who believed in complete meritocracy in sport. The current proposals do not go that far but they do advocate a suspension of relegation for up to five seasons to allow clubs some security. I can live with that.
They also envisage enlarging the league to 14 clubs - except they may struggle to find a 14th. Worcester Warriors and Bristol are neck and neck at the top of the Championship - they have both lost once and are odds-on favourites to meet in the play-off final - with London Scottish in third place already 20 points adrift.
Bristol, of course, now have the billionaire Stephen Lansdown funding them with the declared aim of taking them back into the top flight, while Worcester's Cecil Duckworth, who has invested many millions since taking them from the obscurity of level six in 1997 to the Premiership in 2004, also still appears to have the appetite for yet another go despite being the archetypal yo-yo club.
But who else? Scottish have set the Championship as their ceiling for the present and their ground does not meet Premiership minimum standards for capacity or facilities. Nottingham (another 10 points adrift) have struggled to refinance while Dicky Evans, who has valiantly kept Cornish Pirates at the top end of the table over the past few years, appears disillusioned after having his plans for a new stadium in Truro (one area that could perhaps emulate Exeter and sustain a Premiership club) knocked back by the council.
Bedford have always said they are not interested in promotion which leaves only Leeds (or Yorkshire Carnegie as we must now call them), with Sir Ian McGeechan banging the gong, even interested in going for promotion. However, they are languishing in ninth place at the moment and do not appear to have attracted enough new investment so it is impossible to take them seriously.
Could London Welsh fill the vacant 14th spot? The numbers of supporters who do not even want them to try is growing. There is an impossible dichotomy between retaining our Welsh identity and competing in the top two divisions because, averaged out over a season, we are required to select a minimum of 15 English qualified players in the squad of 23 for each game if we are to qualify for the money that comes directly from the Rugby Football Union.
Everybody understands where the RFU is coming from. Why would you spend core funding on players who are not going to enhance the English game? However, their contribution (paltry though it is) represents most of the money clubs receive in the Championship and a significant proportion in the Premiership. The same, of course, applies to the Scots and the Irish.
We still had a Welsh heart to the team in our first season in the Premiership but now London Welsh has become a club owned, run and coached by Welshmen with almost no Welsh representation on the field. Many supporters are hankering for the days when Old Deer Park was a sporting, cultural and social Mecca for Welsh people in London with the whole of the team Welsh qualified.
That could still be the case if we were to drop two divisions to National Division 1 and there are a considerable number of players currently enjoying their rugby with Rosslyn Park, Richmond, Ealing Trailfinders and Esher who are Welsh Exiles. With disappointing support in Oxford despite a huge amount of community work a significant section of the London Welsh community believes it is time to go back to grass roots even if new funding for another tilt at promotion was available.
As Welsh have discovered the Premiership is not the promised land unless you have very deep pockets and any expansion will, of course, mean a smaller share of sponsorship and television rights to each club. There is already a huge gap between the have and have-nots in the existing structure. Wasps, for example, came perilously close to going out of business.
There is considerable support among the Welsh Regions for a British League with 22 or 24 clubs playing in two conferences. That is probably out of the question at this stage but it seems highly likely that in another decade the shape of the professional game in the four home unions will look radically different.

Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2014-15/rugby/story/258403.html#jljmrAChpLXj2CJd.99

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