Is Kovalev The Best Light Heavyweight Since Roy Jones?

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 9:14

First topic message reminder :

Champions since Jones:

Johnson
Tarver
Dawson
Hopkins
Calzaghe
Pascal
Stevenson

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 17:36

kingraf wrote:Should know by now that "talentless era" is code for "where are the yanks"

Yep...

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 17:38

Spinks and Qawi were 80s fighters If you and Toppy want to look them up..

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 17:40

hazharrison wrote:
Dipper Brown wrote:Jones and Hopkins dropped Calzaghe 'hard', Haz? Don't know about that, clipped when off balance against BHop and forearmed against RJJ. Looked more hurt against Kessler. Don't think you can really say Calzaghe struggled with the power of 175 fighters based on those two.

I'd fancy Kov against the 08 LH version of Calzaghe to be honest. Can't see anyone dealing with Calzaghe 'easily' though, workrate, chin, awkward style. Nightmare for anyone.

Hopkins put him on his arse and Jones hurt him worse. Calzaghe was buzzed on both occasions.

Do ignore Haz to suit your point that Jones hit Calzaghe with an illegal forearm.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 17:48

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Dipper Brown wrote:Jones and Hopkins dropped Calzaghe 'hard', Haz? Don't know about that, clipped when off balance against BHop and forearmed against RJJ. Looked more hurt against Kessler. Don't think you can really say Calzaghe struggled with the power of 175 fighters based on those two.

I'd fancy Kov against the 08 LH version of Calzaghe to be honest. Can't see anyone dealing with Calzaghe 'easily' though, workrate, chin, awkward style. Nightmare for anyone.

Hopkins put him on his arse and Jones hurt him worse. Calzaghe was buzzed on both occasions.

Do ignore Haz to suit your point that Jones hit Calzaghe with an illegal forearm.

Mayweather knocked Hatton with an elbow too............

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 17:50

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Dipper Brown wrote:Jones and Hopkins dropped Calzaghe 'hard', Haz? Don't know about that, clipped when off balance against BHop and forearmed against RJJ. Looked more hurt against Kessler. Don't think you can really say Calzaghe struggled with the power of 175 fighters based on those two.

I'd fancy Kov against the 08 LH version of Calzaghe to be honest. Can't see anyone dealing with Calzaghe 'easily' though, workrate, chin, awkward style. Nightmare for anyone.

Hopkins put him on his arse and Jones hurt him worse. Calzaghe was buzzed on both occasions.

Do ignore Haz to suit your point that Jones hit Calzaghe with an illegal forearm.

No idea who what that means or who it's directed at. Calzaghe would have been in worse shape if Jones had hit him with the knuckle part of the glove rather than the inside of his forearm.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 17:53

kingraf wrote:Should know by now that "talentless era" is code for "where are the yanks"

Just wish there was a triple weight legend around......like Adrien Broner... Rolling Eyes

by TopHat24/7 Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 17:54

hazharrison wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Dipper Brown wrote:Jones and Hopkins dropped Calzaghe 'hard', Haz? Don't know about that, clipped when off balance against BHop and forearmed against RJJ. Looked more hurt against Kessler. Don't think you can really say Calzaghe struggled with the power of 175 fighters based on those two.

I'd fancy Kov against the 08 LH version of Calzaghe to be honest. Can't see anyone dealing with Calzaghe 'easily' though, workrate, chin, awkward style. Nightmare for anyone.

Hopkins put him on his arse and Jones hurt him worse. Calzaghe was buzzed on both occasions.

Do ignore Haz to suit your point that Jones hit Calzaghe with an illegal forearm.

No idea who what that means or who it's directed at. Calzaghe would have been in worse shape if Jones had hit him with the knuckle part of the glove rather than the inside of his forearm.

The heavily padded bit more dangerous than the unprotected hard bit?

Sounds like D4's handwraps argument again......

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 17:57

TopHat24/7 wrote:
kingraf wrote:Should know by now that "talentless era" is code for "where are the yanks"

Just wish there was a triple weight legend around......like Adrien Broner...

What did Hammer say about you.."Only here to antagonize Truss"

Very true................

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 17:57

TopHat24/7 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Dipper Brown wrote:Jones and Hopkins dropped Calzaghe 'hard', Haz? Don't know about that, clipped when off balance against BHop and forearmed against RJJ. Looked more hurt against Kessler. Don't think you can really say Calzaghe struggled with the power of 175 fighters based on those two.

I'd fancy Kov against the 08 LH version of Calzaghe to be honest. Can't see anyone dealing with Calzaghe 'easily' though, workrate, chin, awkward style. Nightmare for anyone.

Hopkins put him on his arse and Jones hurt him worse. Calzaghe was buzzed on both occasions.

Do ignore Haz to suit your point that Jones hit Calzaghe with an illegal forearm.

No idea who what that means or who it's directed at. Calzaghe would have been in worse shape if Jones had hit him with the knuckle part of the glove rather than the inside of his forearm.

The heavily padded bit more dangerous than the unprotected hard bit?

Sounds like D4's handwraps argument again......

Hell yeah. Unprotected fleshy forearm or knuckle? No contest. If Jones had managed to shortened the punch to land with his fist Calzaghe might have struggled to get through the round.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 18:21

Herman Jaeger wrote:Kovalev would make short work of Calzaghe.

Joe was a very good super middleweight though.

Takes him 8 rounds to beat super middle Pascal...............But a slick southpaw ten times better gets slapped easy..

Why do people write such crap..??

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 18:24

Pascal has of course been a light heavyweight for the bulk of his career (the weight he became lineal champion at).

by Marlonz Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 18:28

88Chris05 wrote:You can't even see Kovalev giving Calzaghe trouble, Hammersmith? I think both give each other plenty of bother whoever ends up winning.

I wouldn't be confident of Kovalev not being able to land, really. Calzaghe's defence was decent but not a particularly strong point for him and he usually shipped a fair bit of leather in his fights. He had a very good chin to balance things out but was prone to getting caught out early (all of his knockdowns came inside the first four rounds) and as you've just said, that's where Kovalev looks most dangerous, albeit I think it gets over-exaggerated how much he apparently trails off after that point.

Campillo was a southpaw, quick-handed combination hitter and Kovalev got to him and shut him down without any problems. Granted, Campillo was never in Calzaghe's class and was no longer peak, but if Calzaghe wins (and as I've said, that's definitely a big possibility) I don't see how it's without any bother. How many really top fighters did Calzaghe actually beat in a dominant fashion, or without problems?

But then again, I don't tend to rate Calzaghe quite as highly as others on here. Think he gets too much benefit of the doubt and leeway when it comes to these kind of head to heads considering who he built his record against. Most (though not all, in fairness) of his best victims such as Eubank, Reid, Kessler and Hopkins gave him plenty of bother so I find it harder to believe than others that he likewise starts as automatic favourite over guys such as Ward, Jones Jr, Kovalev etc. I'm far removed from that group who refers to him as some kind of fraud or whatever - he was an excellent fighter and a British great. But I think the praise he gets on these shores is a more than generous return for what he actually did in his career.

I think you've summed up the general thrust of the way I feel about Calzaghe, Chris. Though I probably rate him slightly higher than you. You make fair points and there's no wanton slating of the guy. I honestly feel that Joe beating Kov at 175 would be very unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely and the younger, 168 version of Joe circa 2000 - 03 would probably be too small and unnatural at the higher weight.

I tend to agree with the general consensus (when it comes to his best attributes) that Joe's handspeed and workrate was freakish for super-middle, it really was something to behold when he faced the kind of opponent that allowed him to showcase it. Granted, as someone else pointed out, the KD's Joe suffered all came early in fights, but with the exception of Byron Mitchell, they were all fairly innocuous, something Kovalev doesn't do! Particularly worrying was the way he went down from shots from Hopkins and Jones Jr. The Hopkins right hand seemed to have little sting on it and the Jones punch did'nt even land cleanly, more of a grazing blur of forearm. I also think Kov is more mobile than given credit for and has deceptively long arms. Though if anyone has the footspeed to close him down, smother him and make it a tough inside fight it's Joe I suppose. Just think it would be a step too far for a 36/37 year old Calzaghe to pull off.

Would have to agree with the loaded question of the thread - Yes, Kovalev would most certainly be the best at 175 since a prime Jones Jr, should he defeat Stevenson.

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 18:51

Anyone feel Kovalev would be too much for Ward? Starting to feel that way myself. Kovalev's difficult to neutralise as every punch he throws has a kick to it.

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 19:04

hazharrison wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Dipper Brown wrote:Jones and Hopkins dropped Calzaghe 'hard', Haz? Don't know about that, clipped when off balance against BHop and forearmed against RJJ. Looked more hurt against Kessler. Don't think you can really say Calzaghe struggled with the power of 175 fighters based on those two.

I'd fancy Kov against the 08 LH version of Calzaghe to be honest. Can't see anyone dealing with Calzaghe 'easily' though, workrate, chin, awkward style. Nightmare for anyone.

Hopkins put him on his arse and Jones hurt him worse. Calzaghe was buzzed on both occasions.

Do ignore Haz to suit your point that Jones hit Calzaghe with an illegal forearm.

No idea who what that means or who it's directed at. Calzaghe would have been in worse shape if Jones had hit him with the knuckle part of the glove rather than the inside of his forearm.

Yes of course, starting to think you've not seen the fight now, he more or less forced Calzaghe down with his forearm and it had nothing to do with power but whatever suits your argument.

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 19:09

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Dipper Brown wrote:Jones and Hopkins dropped Calzaghe 'hard', Haz? Don't know about that, clipped when off balance against BHop and forearmed against RJJ. Looked more hurt against Kessler. Don't think you can really say Calzaghe struggled with the power of 175 fighters based on those two.

I'd fancy Kov against the 08 LH version of Calzaghe to be honest. Can't see anyone dealing with Calzaghe 'easily' though, workrate, chin, awkward style. Nightmare for anyone.

Hopkins put him on his arse and Jones hurt him worse. Calzaghe was buzzed on both occasions.

Do ignore Haz to suit your point that Jones hit Calzaghe with an illegal forearm.

No idea who what that means or who it's directed at. Calzaghe would have been in worse shape if Jones had hit him with the knuckle part of the glove rather than the inside of his forearm.

Yes of course, starting to think you've not seen the fight now, he more or less forced Calzaghe down with his forearm and it had nothing to do with power but whatever suits your argument.

Never seen it, no:

https://youtu.be/uukJxLUIz08

He cracked him flush across the bridge of the nose. Calzaghe was quoted after the fight as being hurt.

Send me the version you watch in your head though bro, sounds cool.

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 19:10

You've just proven yourself to be talking garbage, bravo outdone yourself this time.

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 19:13

Show me a man that checks 2.07 of that link and thinks Calzaghe was forced down rather than cracked in the face and I'll send them the number for vision express.

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 19:18

"Yes, I was hurt, he caught me with a good shot. But that's what being a champion is all about - when you're put down on the floor, you come back stronger," admitted Calzaghe after the fight.

"It's an honour getting in the ring with Roy Jones, the guy is a wicked fighter and caused me a lot of trouble. I didn't see the punch coming, it was a good shot. It's the fourth time I've been down and come back strongly."

by milkyboy Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 19:34

Is kovalev the best light heavy since jones. Probably. Need to see him against stevenson to be sure. I don't doubt that the Bhop that jc fought gives kovalev way more problems than the version he did actually fight.

I don't know if calzaghe's pension plan swansong at light heavy warrants him in discussion really. He looked tubby and old. The Calzaghe of the Lacey fight may not have had the punch any more and was happy slappy to save his hands, but he would provide a speed and work rate Krusher hasn't seen. Who's to say if that's enough against a bigger man at his best weight, who hits like a mule. Wouldn't like to call it, Interesting fight.

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 19:42

milkyboy wrote:Is kovalev the best light heavy since jones. Probably. Need to see him against stevenson to be sure. I don't doubt that the Bhop that jc fought gives kovalev way more problems than the version he did actually fight.

I don't know if calzaghe's pension plan swansong at light heavy warrants him in discussion really. He looked tubby and old. The Calzaghe of the Lacey fight may not have had the punch any more and was happy slappy to save his hands, but he would provide a speed and work rate Krusher hasn't seen. Who's to say if that's enough against a bigger man at his best weight, who hits like a mule. Wouldn't like to call it, Interesting fight.

Think he takes Ward?

by Dipper Brown Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 19:47

I don't know if Lacey would agree with the slaps. Ate as many uppercuts as he did handbags that night, absolutely mullered!

Hard to tell too much from Calzaghe's senior tour up at light heavy. Tough to deconstruct a Hopkins fight, sometimes just got to look at the result. Would a younger Calzaghe have been a dominant champion up at 175? Not sure. P4P a class above what we've seen from Kov so far but I'm excited about the big Russian!

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 19:54

It makes you wonder how good Artur Beterbiev is going to be (he beat Kovalev in the amateurs and has looked a beast thus far in the pros).

by milkyboy Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 20:06

Watched beterbiev a while back to see what the fuss was about. He clearly bangs, but he didn't look all that to me. Don't think kovalev was all that as an amateur. Might be a case of who lands first in the pro's. From what I've seen I'd favour kovalev.

Kovalev v ward. Well I'd certainly like to see it haz. I've never subscribed to ward being this unbeatable fighter some see him as, but like a lot of these top level fights it's who controls the distance. I certainly think kovalev with his size as well as strength and ability would put ward under a kind of pressure we haven't seen yet. But ward has that habit of getting his punches off and either being gone or tieing you up. I guess ward starts favourite but it's not a fight I'd bet on.

by milkyboy Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 20:09

Dipper Brown wrote:I don't know if Lacey would agree with the slaps. Ate as many uppercuts as he did handbags that night, absolutely mullered!

Hard to tell too much from Calzaghe's senior tour up at light heavy. Tough to deconstruct a Hopkins fight, sometimes just got to look at the result. Would a younger Calzaghe have been a dominant champion up at 175? Not sure. P4P a class above what we've seen from Kov so far but I'm excited about the big Russian!

I think you made my point though dipper. He are them all night. Never seen the compubox stats but it must be punches thrown 1000, punches landed 1000. (Calzaghe's stats not Lacey's in case you were wondering Wink

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 20:18

milkyboy wrote:Watched beterbiev a while back to see what the fuss was about. He clearly bangs, but he didn't look all that to me. Don't think kovalev was all that as an amateur. Might be a case of who lands first in the pro's. From what I've seen I'd favour kovalev.

Kovalev v ward. Well I'd certainly like to see it haz. I've never subscribed to ward being this unbeatable fighter some see him as, but like a lot of these top level fights it's who controls the distance. I certainly think kovalev with his size as well as strength and ability would put ward under a kind of pressure we haven't seen yet. But ward has that habit of getting his punches off and either being gone or tieing you up. I guess ward starts favourite but it's not a fight I'd bet on.

The punchers from Eastern Europe seem to be the flavour of the month at the moment, they might be exciting but more often than not they eventually get found out and once they do it's downhill from there.

Matthysse is a decent example, a big puncher with a reputation as being avoided and from there you build a cult following who think you're unbeatable, now he was neither avoided nor unbeatable but he was exciting. Quite rightly the result of the Alexander fight was vociferously debated but the Judah fight then got dragged into the same equation when it was a close fight that depended on how you score a fight. From there he gets a reputation for being avoided, has his choice of opposition defended and elevated to obscene levels, loses fair and square to Garcia but his fans blame it solely on the cut ignoring Garcia was in the ascendency before that.

The same is happening with Golovkin, it's started to happen with Kovalev and it will start to happen with Beterbiev, they start to be considered indomitable machines with no flaws when in fact they are very flawed power punches fighting in crap divisions devoid of talent. That is not the fault of any of them and they can only face the best out there which they have done and will continue to do so but without any real quality to face how can we rate them as highly as some do.

by catchweight Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 20:22

I think boxers like Kovalov and Golovkin get underrated because they arent, as Jim Want would say, fancy Dans or they dont rely on spoiling. The pair of them are the best thing boxing has going for it now for my money. Knockouts, entertainment and up for fighting anyone, anywhere.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 20:44

Underrated.....

Who writes your material..

by milkyboy Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 20:52

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
milkyboy wrote:Watched beterbiev a while back to see what the fuss was about. He clearly bangs, but he didn't look all that to me. Don't think kovalev was all that as an amateur. Might be a case of who lands first in the pro's. From what I've seen I'd favour kovalev.

Kovalev v ward. Well I'd certainly like to see it haz. I've never subscribed to ward being this unbeatable fighter some see him as, but like a lot of these top level fights it's who controls the distance. I certainly think kovalev with his size as well as strength and ability would put ward under a kind of pressure we haven't seen yet. But ward has that habit of getting his punches off and either being gone or tieing you up. I guess ward starts favourite but it's not a fight I'd bet on.

The punchers from Eastern Europe seem to be the flavour of the month at the moment, they might be exciting but more often than not they eventually get found out and once they do it's downhill from there.

Matthysse is a decent example, a big puncher with a reputation as being avoided and from there you build a cult following who think you're unbeatable, now he was neither avoided nor unbeatable but he was exciting. Quite rightly the result of the Alexander fight was vociferously debated but the Judah fight then got dragged into the same equation when it was a close fight that depended on how you score a fight. From there he gets a reputation for being avoided, has his choice of opposition defended and elevated to obscene levels, loses fair and square to Garcia but his fans blame it solely on the cut ignoring Garcia was in the ascendency before that.

The same is happening with Golovkin, it's started to happen with Kovalev and it will start to happen with Beterbiev, they start to be considered indomitable machines with no flaws when in fact they are very flawed power punches fighting in crap divisions devoid of talent. That is not the fault of any of them and they can only face the best out there which they have done and will continue to do so but without any real quality to face how can we rate them as highly as some do.

Geography's not my strength hammy. What part of Eastern Europe is argentina in? Wink

Its true that banger's get built up as you generally describe, but it's always been that way. Usually they meet a guy with a great chin or a great skill set, or probably both and the myth gets broken. But it's always a good ride until that happens. Personally I think ggg and kovalev are a bit more than bangers... They're technically efficient rather than showy. But it's certainly true that they are residing in low talent divisions. Hopefully the fights will come along that show where they're both really at.

by kingraf Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:08

Murray will be quite chuffed to know that taking a sustained beating for eleven rounds means he was apparently on the right track to beating Golovkin. More importantly fighters at 160 will also be chuffed to know that there is a blue print. Pity it seems to mainly consist of letting him gas while using your face as a the siphon

by catchweight Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:12

Pascal too. Despite being in with many of the premier super middles and light heavies he managed to take the worst beating of his career against a very flawed banger.

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:16

milkyboy wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
milkyboy wrote:Watched beterbiev a while back to see what the fuss was about. He clearly bangs, but he didn't look all that to me. Don't think kovalev was all that as an amateur. Might be a case of who lands first in the pro's. From what I've seen I'd favour kovalev.

Kovalev v ward. Well I'd certainly like to see it haz. I've never subscribed to ward being this unbeatable fighter some see him as, but like a lot of these top level fights it's who controls the distance. I certainly think kovalev with his size as well as strength and ability would put ward under a kind of pressure we haven't seen yet. But ward has that habit of getting his punches off and either being gone or tieing you up. I guess ward starts favourite but it's not a fight I'd bet on.

The punchers from Eastern Europe seem to be the flavour of the month at the moment, they might be exciting but more often than not they eventually get found out and once they do it's downhill from there.

Matthysse is a decent example, a big puncher with a reputation as being avoided and from there you build a cult following who think you're unbeatable, now he was neither avoided nor unbeatable but he was exciting. Quite rightly the result of the Alexander fight was vociferously debated but the Judah fight then got dragged into the same equation when it was a close fight that depended on how you score a fight. From there he gets a reputation for being avoided, has his choice of opposition defended and elevated to obscene levels, loses fair and square to Garcia but his fans blame it solely on the cut ignoring Garcia was in the ascendency before that.

The same is happening with Golovkin, it's started to happen with Kovalev and it will start to happen with Beterbiev, they start to be considered indomitable machines with no flaws when in fact they are very flawed power punches fighting in crap divisions devoid of talent. That is not the fault of any of them and they can only face the best out there which they have done and will continue to do so but without any real quality to face how can we rate them as highly as some do.

Geography's not my strength hammy. What part of Eastern Europe is argentina in?

Its true that banger's get built up as you generally describe, but it's always been that way. Usually they meet a guy with a great chin or a great skill set, or probably both and the myth gets broken. But it's always a good ride until that happens. Personally I think ggg and kovalev are a bit more than bangers... They're technically efficient rather than showy. But it's certainly true that they are residing in low talent divisions. Hopefully the fights will come along that show where they're both really at.

I did mean to add that Matthysse isn't Eastern European but once upon a time he was the flavour of the month.

The thing is i've never been enamoured by the big punchers per se and neither Golovkin or Kovalev are fluid enough for me to get excited about. I enjoyed Donaire and Hamed because they were showy, they were quick and they then delivered the knockout punch against a higher standard than either of the aforementioned. Some seem to think that knockouts and excitement are synonymous of each other but they are not, they're separate entities that can sometimes be combined.

by AlexHuckerby Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:17

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
milkyboy wrote:Watched beterbiev a while back to see what the fuss was about. He clearly bangs, but he didn't look all that to me. Don't think kovalev was all that as an amateur. Might be a case of who lands first in the pro's. From what I've seen I'd favour kovalev.

Kovalev v ward. Well I'd certainly like to see it haz. I've never subscribed to ward being this unbeatable fighter some see him as, but like a lot of these top level fights it's who controls the distance. I certainly think kovalev with his size as well as strength and ability would put ward under a kind of pressure we haven't seen yet. But ward has that habit of getting his punches off and either being gone or tieing you up. I guess ward starts favourite but it's not a fight I'd bet on.

The punchers from Eastern Europe seem to be the flavour of the month at the moment, they might be exciting but more often than not they eventually get found out and once they do it's downhill from there.

Matthysse is a decent example, a big puncher with a reputation as being avoided and from there you build a cult following who think you're unbeatable, now he was neither avoided nor unbeatable but he was exciting. Quite rightly the result of the Alexander fight was vociferously debated but the Judah fight then got dragged into the same equation when it was a close fight that depended on how you score a fight. From there he gets a reputation for being avoided, has his choice of opposition defended and elevated to obscene levels, loses fair and square to Garcia but his fans blame it solely on the cut ignoring Garcia was in the ascendency before that.

The same is happening with Golovkin, it's started to happen with Kovalev and it will start to happen with Beterbiev, they start to be considered indomitable machines with no flaws when in fact they are very flawed power punches fighting in crap divisions devoid of talent. That is not the fault of any of them and they can only face the best out there which they have done and will continue to do so but without any real quality to face how can we rate them as highly as some do.

Quite clear Stevenson put a quarantine tape around Kovalev and Cotto and Quillin are jumping through hoops to get a shot at Golovkin...

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:20

I've decided to ignore the existence of Stevenson and Cotto as 'lineal champions' now Alex and have Kovalev and Golovkin as uncrowned champions.

Speaking of Stevenson though, he is more exciting to watch than Kovalev because he knocks people out with style, speed and grace.

by kingraf Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:23

Stevenson is a goodie watch though. Pity he was an abusive pimp, as he'd have been almost certainly better had his physical prime aligned with his time in the sun

by milkyboy Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:31

I understand your point hammy. They're not my favourites to watch either. I never enjoyed watching chavez soften people up either, doesn't make him or them any lesser fighter for it.

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:32

catchweight wrote:I think boxers like Kovalov and Golovkin get underrated because they arent, as Jim Want would say, fancy Dans or they dont rely on spoiling. The pair of them are the best thing boxing has going for it now for my money. Knockouts, entertainment and up for fighting anyone, anywhere.

Dead on. Golovkin and Kovalev (GGG in particular) are technically excellent. Golovkin is one of the best technicians in the sport yet it's a more subtle, nuanced technique than the fancy dan types you mention.

They're the antidote to the egotistical, mention themselves in the third person pound for pound bores we've been lumbered with in recent years.

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:37

milkyboy wrote:I understand your point hammy. They're not my favourites to watch either. I never enjoyed watching chavez soften people up either, doesn't make him or them any lesser fighter for it.

Chavez was an odd one, i'd say he's interesting to watch rather than being exciting, every punch for thrown for a reason and he was a lot more subtle than he's given credit for against a fairly high level of opposition.

I just hate being told who I should rate, how they can't be dominated by anybody ever and that I must find them exciting.

by AlexHuckerby Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:38

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I've decided to ignore the existence of Stevenson and Cotto as 'lineal champions' now Alex and have Kovalev and Golovkin as uncrowned champions.

Speaking of Stevenson though, he is more exciting to watch than Kovalev because he knocks people out with style, speed and grace.

Stevenson is arguably still the best, whereas it to me is very clear Cotto will be decimated if he set foot in the ring with Golovkin. But yeah, I'm not with the crowd of following this lineal stuff, if the number 1 guy isn't fighting the best available opposition it becomes a farce, oh wait that's boxing...

by theanimal316 Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 21:49

To address the original question,yep I think Kov is the best LH since Hopkins,with maybe Tarver close behind him. A win over Stevenson would stretch the gap between these two.

Regarding Kovalev versus the LH version of Calzaghe,I think I'm in the minority who think even a past prime Joe would still beat Kovalev due to his work rate,awkward south paw stance,fast hands and good chin. It's important to remember that Kovalev couldn't stop a 49 year old Hopkins,despite being over 20 years younger and a fierce puncher. Would the Joe of 08 stopped a 50 year old Hopkins? I feel he most likely would have,perhaps by unanswered punches rather than knocking him out. The Hopkins that Calzaghe fought was still a top class version,and I tend to have that decision wider than most do on here.

So based on their respective performances,and Joe's style,I make him a favourite in this match up. He also tended to perform better the bigger the challenge (Lacy,Kessler). I can't ever see Joe being beaten on points so can Kovalev stop him? Think it's more likely Joes stamina tells down the stretch and he gets a points win provided he survives getting caught cold as others have alluded to.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 22:06

Calzaghe beat better fighters than this guy..

Plodder with a punch..

by hazharrison Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 22:21

catchweight wrote:Pascal too. Despite being in with many of the premier super middles and light heavies he managed to take the worst beating of his career against a very flawed banger.

Every reason to think that was the strongest, most powerful version of Pascal there's been with the Memo hook up and lack of testing. Never been stopped and Kovalev beat the snot out of him.

by Kareem61 Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 0:16

Hammersmith, which fight are you watching? As has states, joe gets smashed straight in the face, no forearm involved.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 7:59

Watch the HBO highlights between rounds 1 and 2, no part of the was used for the knockdown instead purely forearm.

by hazharrison Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 9:42

hazharrison wrote:
catchweight wrote:Pascal too. Despite being in with many of the premier super middles and light heavies he managed to take the worst beating of his career against a very flawed banger.

Every reason to think that was the strongest, most powerful version of Pascal there's been with the Memo hook up and lack of testing. Never been stopped and Kovalev beat the snot out of him.

And lo and behold - Pascal could be off to heavyweight to fight Stiverne. Wonder how he'll pack on that extra muscle?

by Derbymanc Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 9:44

Mcdonalds?

by hazharrison Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 10:04

Derbymanc wrote:Mcdonalds?

Funnily enough I've seen contaminated meat used as an excuse when a fighter got busted!

by Rodney Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 10:04

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Calzaghe beat better fighters than this guy..

Plodder with a punch..

I hate nonsense like that comment Truss, a plodder with a punch wouldn't cream the top fighter in the division with relative ease. Seems if you don't do the shoulder roll, or throw razzle/dazzle combos you aren't classed as talented..

Cheers, Rodders

by hazharrison Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 10:14

Personally, I feel Kovalev could well be the best light heavy since Jones. Saying that, I give Stevenson every chance should they meet.

To compare the big Russian to a Klitschko or a Matthysse seems odd to me. Kovalev is a seek and destroy monster (not very Klitschko-like) who is technically superb (not very Matthysse-like). His use of the jab against Pascal (both upstairs and down) was superb. Like Golovkin, he doesn't waste any punches and remains unflappable while exerting intense and building pressure upon his opponent.

I find the labelling of him as a "plodder" incredibly myopic. His footwork is awesome - he's constantly in position to hurt his man while cutting off their escape routes. He also switches stances (a really intelligent move Hagler used to pull) in order to devastate opponents expertly.

If he gets past Stevenson I can't see him being beaten for some time.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 10:20

Rodney wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Calzaghe beat better fighters than this guy..

Plodder with a punch..

I hate nonsense like that comment Truss, a plodder with a punch wouldn't cream the top fighter in the division with relative ease. Seems if you don't do the shoulder roll, or throw razzle/dazzle combos you aren't classed as talented..

Cheers, Rodders

We all know it'd be different if Kov was north american, Rodders. Truss is just stuck in the 60/70/80s and hates anything from 'the East', too much growing up in the US watching Rocky movies and eating up anything the Yank anti-communist PR machine fed him.

Whilst I don't think Kov is on the same level technically as GGG, to call him a 'plodder' is pathetic. Surprised it wasn't preceeded by 'upright' or 'stand-up'.

by hazharrison Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 10:21

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Rodney wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Calzaghe beat better fighters than this guy..

Plodder with a punch..

I hate nonsense like that comment Truss, a plodder with a punch wouldn't cream the top fighter in the division with relative ease. Seems if you don't do the shoulder roll, or throw razzle/dazzle combos you aren't classed as talented..

Cheers, Rodders

We all know it'd be different if Kov was north american, Rodders. Truss is just stuck in the 60/70/80s and hates anything from 'the East', too much growing up in the US watching Rocky movies and eating up anything the Yank anti-communist PR machine fed him.

Whilst I don't think Kov is on the same level technically as GGG, to call him a 'plodder' is pathetic. Surprised it wasn't preceeded by 'upright' or 'stand-up'.

Robotic at least?

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