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Manny Pacquiao’s Sparring Partners - Styles to Emulate 'Money'

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Post by Ozymandias Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:15 pm

Hi all,

This is my first foray into the Boxing forum, in fact my first 606v2 post – and it’s a Pac Vs May one!

Before you despair, this post is more specifically concerned with one of Pacquiao’s sparring partners - Kenneth Sims Jr.

Not much on YouTube in terms of his professional career (currently 5-0 with 2 KOs), but there is a handy little video of Sim’s amateur career highlights, which unfortunatley i couldn't post here (new members have to wait 7 days before links can be posted) - but it's the first video on YouTube when searching 'Kenneth Sims Jr'.

Although it’s impossible to emulate Floyd’s defensive mastery – even harder to emulate his ring IQ and ability to make subtle adjustments - I can see why Roach has selected Kenneth Sims Jr to help Manny prepare for Mayweather Jr. I see a lot of similar subtle movements in Sim’s style that remind me of Floyd, the use of the shoulder, the feinting dips and pullbacks to avoid straight punches and the sharp counter punches. He’s also a young prospect so will have bags of energy and enthusiasm to boot (maybe a little too green?). Along with Beltran and company I’m beginning to like Manny’s sparring preparation. I’m sure both Floyd and Manny have both been mentally sparring one another for years now, even more so their coaches when devising their game plans.

Have a look and let me know what you think of Manny or Floyd’s sparring - who's got the edge when it comes to emulating one anothers styles.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:36 pm

Think Floyd is harder to prepare for than the other way round, for the reasons you've mentioned.

Thought Rigo was an interesting rumour, probably the only active boxer more untouchable than Floyd, even if he's 'too small'. But think that got kiboshed anyway.

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Post by Guest Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:41 pm

Can't believe no-one's asked Bradley Pryce...mind you, I doubt they want to be KO'd in front of their adoring hangers-on.

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Post by Rowley Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:31 pm

Welcome aboard Ozy. As this is your first one we can forgive it being about Manny and Floyd, any more than three a week and we will ban you though!

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Post by 3fingers Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:14 pm

I don't think his ring IQ is that great, as I don't think he's as adaptable as some on here make out. He has some tools and he uses them very well. People give examples of him making adjustments mid-fight and turning things round, for example the Madaina fight. Personally, I don't see it. However, I may be wrong. What I do see is someone timing his counters better as the fight progresses, and this is normally helped by his opponents fatigue.

It might be argued he consciously reads the physical cues an opponent 'leaks' before they throw a shot, thus he reads the game and this constitutes ring IQ. On the other hand, it might be argued he is blessed with vision thus he subconsciously reacts to an opponents movements (and fortunately for him he has reflex and speed in abundance) thus his ring IQ is not as huge as suggested.

To me he doesn't adjust much,but instead he times his counters (which are the same punches over and over) as a fight progresses.

It will be hard to find a sparring partner with the defensive ability, chin, timing, speed, reflex and desire to dominate that Mayweather possess.


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Post by 3fingers Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:18 pm

oh, and hello.

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Post by Derbymanc Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:29 pm

Hiya Oz,

not really sure i'm convinced on how much sparring can help either of these 2, the reason this fight is so anticipated is because they're the clear 1 and 2 so as such, how much preparation can you do.

For all the boxers we have on here, how much of a detriment can it be to spar a lot with someone who fights like your opponent but is a lot slower (or markedly slower)?

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Post by kingraf Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:01 pm

He's also had Rigondeaux help out this camp. Must be honest, given Rigo's size, I do wonder if the Jackal is there as a sparring partner, or a "technical assistant" of sorts, tightening Pac's technique for the fight of his career.
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Post by AlexHuckerby Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:17 pm

kingraf wrote:He's also had Rigondeaux help out this camp. Must be honest, given Rigo's size, I do wonder if the Jackal is there as a sparring partner, or a "technical assistant" of sorts, tightening Pac's technique for the fight of his career.

Pretty sure it came out it was nonsense and Rigo isn't in his camp and I'm pretty sure Roach said it was daft as he was too small.

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Post by 3fingers Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:21 pm

Manny Punches far too hard for Rigo. Rigo has the ability to emulate Mayweather but I can't imagine them employing a Southpaw to imitate an orthodox fighter. If they did Spar it would have to be Tech Spar rather than an Open Spar.

If they have employed him as a technical assistant, like you suggest RAF, then I'd guess it's to allow a dumb southpaw to benefit from a clever southpaw with regard to patience and shot selection, that said, I don't think that's what Manny needs to beat Mayweather. His only chance is top outwork Mayweather over the distance. He's not going to stop mayweather who's toughness and chin are seldom mentioned.  

I haven't heard this mentioned yet but, despite how he has or hasn't performed against southpaws in the past, Mayweather possess the two best punches against a southpaw... the lead right down the pipe and the lead left hook. In fact, these are two of Mayweathers most effective punches. He just needs to get his lead foot on the outside, which might be easier said than done against someone bouncing all over the place. If he gets it right he'll knock Manny out.

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Post by Coxy001 Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:42 am

Rowley wrote:Welcome aboard Ozy. As this is your first one we can forgive it being about Manny and Floyd, any more than three a week and we will ban you though!

Is it now in the house rules as a result of D4s verbal squirting over anything to do with either 20 articles a week?! Bravo.

Never quite got someone trying to emulate a style, especially Floyds. Problem is a guy may be able to do say 60% of what he can do, roll the shoulder/tuck the chin behind it etc. But it may also then create an issue with Pacquiao setting up his attacks in potentially the wrong way when he comes to face the real thing.

Floyd will naturally be facing southpaw volume punches, just not sure you should really be telling sparring guys to try and mimic movements etc.

Paddy Power have released Method of Victory by the way:

FMJ: Points = 8/13
FMJ: UD = 5/6

The latter is a huge risk in my eyes, with a volume puncher there's always that chance the judges go with aggression and we end up with a MD/SD etc. 8/13 is pretty good value, will just involve putting a decent whack on it.

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Post by 88Chris05 Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:43 am

There's a theory that Mayweather has a bit of a problem with lefties, basically built on the fact that Corley hurt him and seemed to knock him off his usual, defensively-tight gameplan for a while and that Judah caused him stylistic problems, outboxing him for four rounds. Can't remember if there are any other high-class southpaws on Mayweather's record, but outside of Corley and Judah there's Guerrero and Ortiz; Guerrero was outclassed and couldn't get to Floyd, although he's nowt like Manny, and Ortiz did ok for a while but was out of his depth, too.

Personally I think Floyd's struggles with southpaws are a little overstated and what Corley and Judah managed to do for short-ish periods against him was more down to other factors rather than their left-handed stances, which I think are incidental, really.

The Corley situation was similar to the one against Mosley - a right hander - really. It's interesting that on the very rare occasions that Mayweather's been nailed with a really big shot (as in, right on the button and had him shaken up) he's arguably lost his composure and elected to brawl back a little and has made unusual defensive mistakes. That said, he's shown he's still good enough to survive and shake the other guy up in retaliation even under those circumstances. Left handed or right, I think Corley just showed as Mosley did that if you can land with power right on the button, you can rattle Floyd and lure him in to fighting on your terms - the hard part is landing that flush shot and being able to follow up. Not sure how relevant Corley being a southpaw was, really.

The Judah one is more compelling and probably a better source of encouragement for Pacquiao, because rather than just the odd big shot here or there he did look as though he had the wood on Mayweather to some degree for a while. But that might be the only time Mayweather has fought a guy as fast as himself so taking a few rounds to get to grips with it is no cause for alarm, really. Judah kept it very, very tight defensively for four rounds which isn't really in Pacquiao's nature. On the one hand, Judah did his usual thing of getting visibly discouraged and tired as the fight wore on, which you don't expect at all from Manny, but the bad news is that Mayweather took matters in to his own hands in that fight, started initiating with body shots and got on the front foot while putting Judah on his back one - and as the likes of Morales have shown, Pacquiao's not particularly comfortable on the back foot.

Still think Mayweather's just too good to be stopped and Pacquiao too tough and durable against a moderate hitter like Floyd, so barring cuts I still see it as a distance fight. If Pacquiao can get a lead over the first six then it'll be an exciting watch but I feel anything less than him being 4-2 up at that stage (ok, maybe 3 apiece but that's it) means there'll be an air of inevitability over the second half.
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Post by Coxy001 Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:53 am

Agree with the usual essay Chris Wink

For me, Manny has to hurt Floyd and potentially drop him to win this fight. Basically it has to be fought at his pace and on his terms, if he gets dictated to then it's game over and spirito de punto.


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Post by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:21 pm

It'll be a tight and cagey affair with nether wanting to get caught with a sucker punch and therefore nothing happens for the first five or six rounds. You might get a couple of decent rounds then it'll be back to square one before a frenetic but ultimately futile last round. You'll all wonder why you wasted the time and money watching this snorefest and then get all giddy when they announce the rematch.

Khan and Brook will be a screamer compared to this

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Post by TopHat24/7 Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:24 pm

DAVE667 wrote:It'll be a tight and cagey affair with nether wanting to get caught with a sucker punch and therefore nothing happens for the first five or six rounds. You might get a couple of decent rounds then it'll be back to square one before a frenetic but ultimately futile last round. You'll all wonder why you wasted the time and money watching this snorefest and then get all giddy when they announce the rematch.

Khan and Brook will be a screamer compared to this

Do you not think Mann trusts his chin enough to take one for landing one/two?

He has a good chin and Floyd has limited power above LW, so unless Ariza works some 'magic' and Floyd turns into a beast like JMM in the last Manny fight, Manny shouldn't have much to worry about IMO.

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Post by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:30 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:It'll be a tight and cagey affair with nether wanting to get caught with a sucker punch and therefore nothing happens for the first five or six rounds. You might get a couple of decent rounds then it'll be back to square one before a frenetic but ultimately futile last round. You'll all wonder why you wasted the time and money watching this snorefest and then get all giddy when they announce the rematch.

Khan and Brook will be a screamer compared to this

Do you not think Mann trusts his chin enough to take one for landing one/two?

He has a good chin and Floyd has limited power above LW, so unless Ariza works some 'magic' and Floyd turns into a beast like JMM in the last Manny fight, Manny shouldn't have much to worry about IMO.

Floyd's timing and accuracy surpass that of Marquez who was good enough to catch Manny repeatedly way back when he was in his prime. With a fight of this magnitude, no-one wants to have paid thousands (or even £20) to watch a two rounder. With the two best fighters on the planet, people will want to see 12 rounds of blood, guts, thunder, give and take, to and fro a la Ali Frazier....trouble, you won't get it. Floyd is too cagey/smart to stand and trade with Manny and it takes two to make a fight. This will be a chess match only one of the players doesn't know how to play chess that well.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:50 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:It'll be a tight and cagey affair with nether wanting to get caught with a sucker punch and therefore nothing happens for the first five or six rounds. You might get a couple of decent rounds then it'll be back to square one before a frenetic but ultimately futile last round. You'll all wonder why you wasted the time and money watching this snorefest and then get all giddy when they announce the rematch.

Khan and Brook will be a screamer compared to this

Do you not think Mann trusts his chin enough to take one for landing one/two?

He has a good chin and Floyd has limited power above LW, so unless Ariza works some 'magic' and Floyd turns into a beast like JMM in the last Manny fight, Manny shouldn't have much to worry about IMO.

Floyd's timing and accuracy surpass that of Marquez who was good enough to catch Manny repeatedly way back when he was in his prime. With a fight of this magnitude, no-one wants to have paid thousands (or even £20) to watch  a two rounder. With the two best fighters on the planet, people will want to see 12 rounds of blood, guts, thunder, give and take, to and fro a la Ali Frazier....trouble, you won't get it. Floyd is too cagey/smart to stand and trade with Manny and it takes two to make a fight. This will be a chess match only one of the players doesn't know how to play chess that well.

Totally agree re Floyd's timing & accuracy surpassing JMM. And that he will catch Manny A LOT. But I'm talking about out and out 1 punch ko power. Floyd doesn't have it. JMM didn't have it before his sudden resurgence once established at WW.

I don't think Manny should be too concerned about Floyd ko-ing him. Floyd has only ko'd one fighter above LW, the suspiciously chinned bottle-job Ortiz. Manny must know Floyd will land on him alot, with point-scoring but not damaging punches, so should take the extra risk required to try land some of his own on Floyd.

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Post by Coxy001 Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:58 pm

Floyd has only ko'd one fighter above LW

Now, I'm not one to prance around on technicalities butttttttt he did stop Hatton as well. Albeit a TKO. As well as Gatti and Mitchel @ LWW. Assuming you mean Lightweight of course, as that's what LW stands for.

Wink

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Post by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:02 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
Floyd has only ko'd one fighter above LW

Now, I'm not one to prance around on technicalities butttttttt he did stop Hatton as well. Albeit a TKO. As well as Gatti and Mitchel @ LWW. Assuming you mean Lightweight of course, as that's what LW stands for.

Wink
What weight what the Philip N'Dou fight at? Maybe that was at LW, I dunno...or care really. Either way, no-one is gonna want to risk getting KOd yet the only satisfactory outcome (in my eyes) would be a KO of such ferocity, it makes the local news.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:20 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
Floyd has only ko'd one fighter above LW

Now, I'm not one to prance around on technicalities butttttttt he did stop Hatton as well. Albeit a TKO. As well as Gatti and Mitchel @ LWW. Assuming you mean Lightweight of course, as that's what LW stands for.

Wink

Whoops, totally fine Coxy, my mistake and yes I missed Hatton. Disagree re the other two though, they're not examples of what I'm talking about.

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