Clermont Auvergne vs Northampton - 4th April, 17:45BST

First topic message reminder :

ASM Clermont Auvergne

15 Nick Abendanon; 14 Noa Nakaitaci, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Wesley Fofana, 11 Naipolioni Nalaga; 10 Brock James, 9 Ludovic Radoslavjevic
1 Vincent Debaty, 2 Benjamin Kayser, 3 Davit Zirakashvili; 4 Jamie Cudmore, 5Sébastien Vahaamahina; 6 Damien Chouly (capt),7 Julien Bonnaire, 8 Fritz Lee
16 John Ulugia, 17 Thomas Domingo, 18 Clément Ric, 19 Julien Pierre, 20 Julien Bardy, 21 Thierry Lacrampe, 22 Mike Delany, 23 Aurélien Rougerie


Northampton Saints

15 James Wilson; 14 Ken Pisi, 13 George Pisi, 12 Luther Burrell, 11 Jamie Elliott; 10 Steve Myler, 9 Lee Dickson
1 Alex Corbisiero, 2 Dylan Hartley (capt), 3 Salesi Ma'afu; 4 Samu Manoa, 5 Courtney Lawes; 6 Tom Wood, 7 Calum Clark, 8 Sam Dickinson
16 Mikey Haywood, 17 Alex Waller, 18 Gareth Denman, 19 Christian Day, 20 Jonathan Fisher, 21 Kahn Fotuali'i, 22 Tom Stephenson, 23 Ah See Tuala



Referee John Lacey (Ireland)
Touch Judge 1 Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Touch Judge 2 David Wilkinson (Ireland)
Fourth Official Simon McDowell (Ireland)
TMO Simon McDowell (Ireland)
Citing Commissioner John Charles (Wales)

Oh and I'm amazed Waller got away with striking the opposition players face!

Very disappointed. I missed the Bath game, then got all my chores done and settled down for some me time. Awful. Clermont were very, very good, but Saints didn't show. I was expecting a contest. Half that Saints pack are currently England starters but they were destroyed.

I know anything can happen at this stage, but playing lke that Clermont have a great oppotunity this time.

&*((&%$$##@@!!!!!!!
Translation:  This match was a bloody consummated fornicated mess.  Post digested food.  Saints played like so much manure, I could have fertilised all the Shire for years with it.  
Bloody effing sport.
Bloody effing team.
My boys.

Results like this are going to be more frequent if the huge financial gap at this level is allowed to continue.

Clubs like Clermont run on a budget twice that of Saints, five or six times that of the Ospreys

Money wins matches

That result had nothing to do with money. Last year Saracens did the same to ASM. Was that money related? No. One team came out of the blocks and the other team didn't, and once ASM were on top they kept their foot on the jugular.

Heart and determination (and skill) wins matches.

Hell I am impressed that Ospreys are able to play as they do with a salary budget of around a third of Saints, equating to under £2m.


Anyway the Sunday times has today revealed how Mallinder's tactical blunder cost Saints any chance. The main picture shows Wesley Fofana being tackled by Hartley and Lawes with the caption "Fofana tries to break through the Northampton back-line".

Oh Jim, you should have played backs in the back line, and forwards in the pack

Ozzy3213 wrote:That result had nothing to do with money.  Last year Saracens did the same to ASM.  Was that money related?  No.  One team came out of the blocks and the other team didn't, and once ASM were on top they kept their foot on the jugular.

Heart and determination (and skill) wins matches.

That's the Saracens under investigation for going beyond their legal capping limits and are in debt to the tune of 40million?  They're spending that 40 million on something

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3025947/Saracens-chairman-Nigel-Wray-describes-rugby-s-salary-caps-farce-documents-club-s-mounting-debts-reached-40m-rugby-history.html

SecretFly wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:That result had nothing to do with money.  Last year Saracens did the same to ASM.  Was that money related?  No.  One team came out of the blocks and the other team didn't, and once ASM were on top they kept their foot on the jugular.

Heart and determination (and skill) wins matches.

That's the Saracens under investigation for going beyond their legal capping limits and are in debt to the tune of 40million?  They're spending that 40 million on something

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3025947/Saracens-chairman-Nigel-Wray-describes-rugby-s-salary-caps-farce-documents-club-s-mounting-debts-reached-40m-rugby-history.html

But this is also the same Saints who beat Saracens for the Premiership title last season.  So money didn't win that one: skill, guts and determination did.  Around and around we go...........

I think we all agree the money in the Top 14 is out of control. and seemingly, clubs can surpass their salary cap with no concerns.  Creates severe iniquities in the basic structures of the sport.  The money, though, does not make better players.  It does enable more depth in quality, rest time, and likely more support for the players within the club.      

Sadly, the depth in the Clermont squad had nothing to do with Saints being blown off at the breakdown and falling off basic tackles.  They didn't have the goods yesterday and Clermont did.

Nine of the starting XV for Clermont were French qualified - while more NQPs than most non French teams put out, still a decent proportion. Which beggars the question if Clermont can play like that, why are France so spineless and dull?

That's a great point.
Clermont attacked directly and with skill and aggression.
France seems to attack with all the energy of dried pâté.
Bizarre.

During the 1st half ASM played with a tempo of a test match. Saints just were not up to it and lost most collisions. With all that quick ball and forward domination it became easier to clermont backs to look very good. france as a team rarely gets space to run into or quick ball (appart from that crazy twickeham game) and mainly dont have the confindence in whatever game plan they are meant to play.

Am also impressed by Nick Abendanon. Didnt know he was a player of that calibre when he signed.

doctor_grey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:That result had nothing to do with money.  Last year Saracens did the same to ASM.  Was that money related?  No.  One team came out of the blocks and the other team didn't, and once ASM were on top they kept their foot on the jugular.

Heart and determination (and skill) wins matches.

That's the Saracens under investigation for going beyond their legal capping limits and are in debt to the tune of 40million?  They're spending that 40 million on something

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3025947/Saracens-chairman-Nigel-Wray-describes-rugby-s-salary-caps-farce-documents-club-s-mounting-debts-reached-40m-rugby-history.html

But this is also the same Saints who beat Saracens for the Premiership title last season.  So money didn't win that one: skill, guts and determination did.  Around and around we go...........

I think we all agree the money in the Top 14 is out of control. and seemingly, clubs can surpass their salary cap with no concerns.  Creates severe iniquities in the basic structures of the sport.  The money, though, does not make better players.  It does enable more depth in quality, rest time, and likely more support for the players within the club.      

Sadly, the depth in the Clermont squad had nothing to do with Saints being blown off at the breakdown and falling off basic tackles.  They didn't have the goods yesterday and Clermont did.

Of course guts and bravery and skill is the reason why one side does another.  But yes, money helps.  If money didn't help there'd be no professionalism at all.  Money helps because it pays for best staff, best facilities, best science, best coaches, 'best' players...more 'best' players than a side that can't afford so many 'best' players.  

In a climate of best player too - and this is SO very much something most rugby observers seek to ignore - in a climate of best players, the training itself becomes so much more intense and rewarding.  When first teamers can really test themselves against players practically as good as themselves in training, that in itself improves things on two fronts.  Firstly is that player instincts and skills need to go up in training itself, never even mind when they meet strong opponents.  And secondly that Real competition, keeping everyone genuinely on their toes for first team places. In a sense, the bigger the budget for players the more you can mimic an International squad, where considered 'best' players go to camp and improve each other because of it.

Money matters.  No it's not failsafe - but it's more consistent than no money or less money.

SecretFly wrote:Money matters.  No it's not failsafe - but it's more consistent than no money or less money.

No one's arguing against that. Only saying that it takes more than money to win. This is why Sarries (who may be exceeding the English cap) defeated Clermont last season (who my have been exceeding the higher French cap), or why Saints defeated Sarries. In American sport they see it all the time - the top spending team is frequently not the winner. Those teams usually are, however, generally competitive. The New York Yankees are the best example of profligate spending not having equal return. This year they will be mediocre.

I really like how the NFL approaches it. The cap for the upcoming season will be approx. USD $140million. Teams must spend a minimum of 89% of the cap number (averaged over 4 years salaries). Maintains financial balance and gives teams an equal shot. Then it comes down to the more important things: Coaching (number 1, of course), player selection (the other number 1), team management, support staff, team ethos, and so on. The challenge for Rugby, which is located in many different countries with different compensation systems, is how to equalise the financial calculations and then to determine a reasonable cap.

Just watched the highlights on BT Sport. ASM looked mighty impressive but were the highlights reflective of the whole game or was it that uneven. So much for the (my?) stereotype of stodgy French boring rugby.

I suspect that England managed to poke the French bear once too often during the 6 Nations.

Suddenly French teams, particularly the test team, are going to be playing scintillating rugby - Clermont-style.

Watch out for RWC fireworks as they land into the final again and lay their cup bogey to rest.

I always say its the World cup schedule that interests the French. Not the glorious 6N. I doubt very much that they'll be rolling over for anyone in that WC..... and those pragmatic idiots in Green might get a very rude awakening if they don't regard their pool game with them as an out and out Final.

I'd love to see the French national side doing well and playing great rugby. Definitely my 2nd side and love the rivalry with the French.

England vs France final at HQ would be tasty  I'm sure NZ and SA would have something to say about that though...

Just noticed this tweet from Tom a Wood straight after the game, fair play to him.

@tomwood678: Thanks to Clermont for inviting us to their open training session today. We've left our non contact bibs in the changing rooms #humbled

Now that's a man. When you can take the punch and give credit to the opponent for the knockout.

LondonTiger wrote:Hell I am impressed that Ospreys are able to play as they do with a salary budget of around a third of Saints, equating to under £2m.


Anyway the Sunday times has today revealed how Mallinder's tactical blunder cost Saints any chance. The main picture shows Wesley Fofana being tackled by Hartley and Lawes with the caption "Fofana tries to break through the Northampton back-line".

Oh Jim, you should have played backs in the back line, and forwards in the pack

LT

At Saints they are supposed to be interchangable, unfortunately whilst the pack can all run and pass like backs, the backs can't tackle, ruck and maul like the forwards, hence why we were stuffed at the breakdown. The backs were all stuck in the mauls and rucks, the forwards in the open field.