Italian teams and the Pro 12

First topic message reminder :

"Treviso and Zebre have been given until the end of the mont to pay 1.5m Euros to the rest of the pro12 clubs or face immediate expulsion"

says TRP.

Also says that other teams pay £80k a season visiting Italy, which they could do without. Sounds ominous.

Notch wrote:

They gambled on growing their fan bases quickly after joining, but they have been poorly run- I wonder how history will judge the decision to axe a Rome-based franchise in order to include Treviso. It is a football-mad city, but rugby's heartlands in Italy are not very well populated.

You're right - Treviso population of 82,000. There is also a football club in Treviso which will split the fan base, though I don't know how the two compare in terms of popularity.

In Rome they get 70,000+ for international rugby (6 Nations) matches in Rome, more popular than the national football team, and also bigger than the crowds the big two Rome football clubs get. Even if you factor in the huge away support that goes to Rome, that still means at least 40-50,000 Romans are a strong rugby core fan base. Surely enough to build something if anyone was prepared to fund it.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:What on earth has population got to do with it? Shall we invite Russia in too, there's quite a few people there.

Well somebody wanted to invite them into something somewhere as my mind recollects...... but of course that fell through when the potential inviters got their way without including them....

You mean involvement in European competition? Did you know that a Russian team will be in the Challenge Cup next year? Not really 'fallen through'.

Although, the legitimacy of having a team further east than India in a European Competition is another question. One of the problems with Russia being so big.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Although, the legitimacy of having a team further east than India in a European Competition is another question. One of the problems with Russia being so big.

Oh don't you worry about legitimacy, Hammer. If it meant more money, India in 'Europe' would happen easily. After all, Australia are in the Eurovision this year!

Have we not had this thread already?

TG wrote:

Notch wrote:

They gambled on growing their fan bases quickly after joining, but they have been poorly run- I wonder how history will judge the decision to axe a Rome-based franchise in order to include Treviso. It is a football-mad city, but rugby's heartlands in Italy are not very well populated.

You're right - Treviso population of 82,000. There is also a football club in Treviso which will split the fan base, though I don't know how the two compare in terms of popularity.

In Rome they get 70,000+ for international rugby (6 Nations) matches in Rome, more popular than the national football team, and also bigger than the crowds the big two Rome football clubs get. Even if you factor in the huge away support that goes to Rome, that still means at least 40-50,000 Romans are a strong rugby core fan base. Surely enough to build something if anyone was prepared to fund it.

Maybe... but you could say the same about crowds for Scotland's test matches at Murrayfield. That strong core fan base for test rugby doesn't automatically transfer to Edinburgh's games. What is true is that Trevisos fan base has very little room for growth at all.

LondonTiger wrote:Have we not had this thread already?

Every thread here is an echo of a previous one. We're in the Alps.

There's a 'Lions Squad 20xx' thread lurking around every corner.

Griff wrote:There's a 'Lions Squad 20xx' thread lurking around every corner.

Sexton nailed on I tells ya !!

Irish Londoner wrote:

Griff wrote:There's a 'Lions Squad 20xx' thread lurking around every corner.

Sexton nailed on I tells ya !!

No way, Priestland is god, etc., etc., etc, blah, blah!

Pfft just wait for the arguments on whether BOD should be selected.

LondonTiger wrote:Pfft just wait for the arguments on whether BOD should be selected.

Oh God, you idiots!

BOD hasn't a chance of being picked as Gats will be coach.

BBC and Planet rugby are now reporting this:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32682160

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,3825_48555,00.html

"Scottish have said they are interested in a move from the English Championship."

Oh my.  That's nice of them to be interested in stepping up to a bigger contest without qualifying to do so.  I wonder how many other English Championship sides would like a shot at playing in Pro12 or indeed the AP?

Maybe Treviso and Zebre should say they're interested in a move to the AP, where they'd get more money from BT?

Let's have playoffs. Treviso plays LW, Zebre plays LS - winners join or stay in Pro12.

I guess it's too soon to promote RGC. They're doing some good work up in Gogland and if they could reforge the link with Canadian rugby that could be viable. If we ever expand the number of Welsh teams that is where we need to be looking. London Scottish could be a good fit for the RFU, although i'm sure with this we'll see a Caledonia Reds rumour pop up soon. Could they use that BT money to co own a third team with some private investment?

This could be good news for Chunks - if the "home" RFUs are unable to keep their sides in their country then GB & I league here we come !

Irish Londoner wrote:This could be good news for Chunks - if the "home" RFUs are unable to keep their sides in their country then GB & I league here we come !

Maybe. It would certainly be a start.

Irish Londoner wrote:This could be good news for Chunks - if the "home" RFUs are unable to keep their sides in their country then GB & I league here we come !

And that would open up a can of worms, but if the RFU is against it I can't believe that Pro12 would allow either team to enter. Hopefully not.

Not that I believe it's going to happen anyway.

If the RFU don't agree it, it won't happen. In the same way if the WRU didn't agree to the Regions joining the AP, it wouldn't happen. It would be abreach of the IRB regulations and bring the whole thing down.

Although it would be amusing if the PRO12 unions were the ones to do it rather than the English clubs.

Lets look ahead. In the not too distant future I can see both Wales and Scotland making a case for another region, Wales with the North Wales franchise, and Scotland with this Caledonia Reds idea, although I think it cannot come quick enough for the Scott's. So why would they want the exiled clubs in the Pro12. I can see the Pro12 staying at ten teams until the other unions are ready with their extra teams. Lets be honest here, what do the Italian teams bring to the league apart from a guarantied 4pts each game ? They were given their chance and they blew it, I would hate to see them leave, because they can be good for an upset, but they have gone backwards and they do not look like improving.

HammerofThunor wrote:If the RFU don't agree it, it won't happen.  In the same way if the WRU didn't agree to the Regions joining the AP, it wouldn't happen.  It would be abreach of the IRB regulations and bring the whole thing down.

Although it would be amusing if the PRO12 unions were the ones to do it rather than the English clubs.

Under current IRB regulations, no, but what if those regulations are challenged in court?

Then we got us a Wild West Free for All where Clubs become true roving free agents; playing a season in Super Rugby and then the following year turning up in France to do a season there.

In the Free Market Open Borders Future you might have a side like Toulon hold the record for a win in each major World League - Top14, Pro12, AP and Super Rugby.

Am I just joking or am I giving Wray too many juicy ideas??????

LordDowlais wrote:Lets look ahead. In the not too distant future I can see both Wales and Scotland making a case for another region, Wales with the North Wales franchise, and Scotland with this Caledonia Reds idea, although I think it cannot come quick enough for the Scott's. So why would they want the exiled clubs in the Pro12. I can see the Pro12 staying at ten teams until the other unions are ready with their extra teams. Lets be honest here, what do the Italian teams bring to the league apart from a guarantied 4pts each game ? They were given their chance and they blew it, I would hate to see them leave, because they can be good for an upset, but they have gone backwards and they do not look like improving.

On what possible basis would a North Wales rugby team ever have the money, players, infrastructure etc of being a professional rugby side?

There are those who would like to see Unions further weakened, and would be all in favour of such a move. South African teams in the AP?

The way people talk about North Wales in here, one might think it was there to be invaded by another Nation due to lack of interest by the natives.

I always hear this line "What the f**k is in North Wales?" Maybe a few Welsh people should travel up there and find out.

SecretFly wrote:I always hear this line "What the f**k is in North Wales?" Maybe a few Welsh people should travel up there and find out.

There are only about 688,937 people living up there, but you would think it was as sparsely populated as Greenland FFS. The Wrexham area has 300,000 people living there, there are plenty of resources for another region up in the North of our country. Also they would be partizan supporters, they would all flock to the North Wales region just to put a point to all us southerners.

So the WRU and RCG now have the pooled resources to fund an additional region to the tune of millions of £?

I must have missed the memo.

Chunky Norwich wrote:So the WRU and RCG now have the pooled resources to fund an additional region to the tune of millions of £?

I must have missed the memo.

Precisely. They aren't even doing that great at their level and need to progress into the Premiership first. There's no way they'd have enough budget to make a competitive squad.

And wouldn't the WRU be doing something to 'fund' a LW side if they came into the Pro12? Perhaps some Central Contracts?

Better to entertain the London English crowd than give people in North Wales something to get their teeth into of a rugby Nature? -  Yeah?  

The fans down in South Wales complain when they can't get a train home on a Sunday night after a game, yet unfortunate actual Welsh people in North Wales don't get to see any live Regional rugby at all and nobody in the south seems to care.  To hell with them, let's get the English lads in London cheering instead - they're short of good rugby down there.....

Tell LW owners that if they want in, they'd have to move base and invest in North Wales. Wasps moved. Clubs can move. NW instead of LW???

SecretFly wrote:And wouldn't the WRU be doing something to 'fund' a LW side if they came into the Pro12?  Perhaps some Central Contracts?

Better to entertain the London English crowd than give people in North Wales something to get their teeth into of a rugby Nature? -  Yeah?  

The fans down in South Wales complain when they can't get a train home on a Sunday night after a game, yet unfortunate actual Welsh people in North Wales don't get to see any live Regional rugby at all and nobody in the south seems to care.  To hell with them, let's get the English lads in London cheering instead - they're short of good rugby down there.....

So you talk about this as a possibility when it suits your argument.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:And wouldn't the WRU be doing something to 'fund' a LW side if they came into the Pro12?  Perhaps some Central Contracts?

Better to entertain the London English crowd than give people in North Wales something to get their teeth into of a rugby Nature? -  Yeah?  

The fans down in South Wales complain when they can't get a train home on a Sunday night after a game, yet unfortunate actual Welsh people in North Wales don't get to see any live Regional rugby at all and nobody in the south seems to care.  To hell with them, let's get the English lads in London cheering instead - they're short of good rugby down there.....

So you talk about this as a possibility when it suits your argument.

Does it suit my argument?

I want the Italians to stay.  I want LW, LS (and LI that are never mentioned - wonder why that is??? ) to take the pain and continue struggling in England, where they have ample opportunities like any other English sides to progress or not in their own Leagues.

But if it came to it that Italians left Pro12 then I'd be with Lord and say the Welsh should create a new Region in the North - and at last have a real 'Regional Dynamic' at work.  And I'd suggest too that the new full of beans Scots would turn their new political confidence into money and commitment to a third team based in Scotland. They have the population to make a go of it.

So how does all that make the argument of WRU supporting LW suit me?

I throw it back at you, is it right that WRU would be expected to Support in some way LW if they joined?

SecretFly wrote:
I throw it back at you, is it right that WRU would be expected to Support in some way LW if they joined?

No. If the WRU find an extra few million all of a sudden then it should go on the game in Wales.

As far as I know, they haven't got this money.

So LW, if coming under the administrative authority of WRU for the purposes of joining the Pro12, would not seek or get any funding from WRU?

So they'd settle for being second class citizens to the four Regions? It wouldn't create tension, especially if Ospreys or Scarlets were beating them every time they met?

SecretFly wrote:So LW, if coming under the administrative authority of WRU for the purposes of joining the Pro12, would not seek or get any funding from WRU?

So they'd settle for being second class citizens to the four Regions?  It wouldn't create tension, especially if Ospreys or Scarlets were beating them every time they met?

I have no idea, you're asking me to look into the future. Impossible to answer.

I would understand people's frustrations if Welsh money was spent on an English club though.

Don't forget though - PRL "owe" PRW one, after the Euro wranglings.

So how would London Welsh and Scottish be any better than the Italian clubs if you don't think that the respective unions would/should support them with money? What exactly would PRL owe and why?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So how would London Welsh and Scottish be any better than the Italian clubs if you don't think that the respective unions would/should support them with money?

They wouldn't.

What exactly would PRL owe and why?

A favour or 2. After RRW sided with them over nu-Europe.

So all the Italian money would go to the London clubs but they would really have any say in the league bar the clubs chairs? What favours would you expect the PRL to give?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So all the Italian money would go to the London clubs but they would really have any say in the league bar the clubs chairs? What favours would you expect the PRL to give?

Pay the outstanding E1.5M that the Italians left behind them???

No 7&1/2 wrote: What favours would you expect the PRL to give?

No idea. Perhaps agree to a revamped LV Cup in the future, or another cross border competition of some sort.

Jeez man! All this arguing and no one is picking up on the biggest point!

If the Italian sides leave, could we go back to calling it "The Celtic League"????????

Risca Rev wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:So the WRU and RCG now have the pooled resources to fund an additional region to the tune of millions of £?

I must have missed the memo.

Precisely. They aren't even doing that great at their level and need to progress into the Premiership first. There's no way they'd have enough budget to make a competitive squad.

Ok Chunky/Risca, I did not say now straight away, I said in the not too distant future. Yes we all know that the WRU do not have enough money at the moment, but when the stadium debt is finally paid off, then you never know, there might be a few spare quid laying around, and hopefully by then RGC1404 might have a better set-up, they could be in the Welsh prem making a fight for regionalism, I was not talking about them being a region NOW, that is why I also said to keep it at ten teams until the other unions are ready.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So all the Italian money would go to the London clubs but they would really have any say in the league bar the clubs chairs? What favours would you expect the PRL to give?

Pay the outstanding E1.5M that the Italians left behind them???

Didnt even think of that. Would the clubs be expected to stump up that money as well or is that just demanded from Italians?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: What favours would you expect the PRL to give?

No idea. Perhaps agree to a revamped LV Cup in the future, or another cross border competition of some sort.

Revamped?

The story has been denied by Pro12 - the Italians are not being kicked out if they don't pay 1m.

The story is that the 1m is to buy a shareholder in the Pro12 - up to now, they have been on a trial basis. The Italians intend paying, just they want to pay in stages.

If anything, this means that the Italians are going nowhere.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-chiefs-insist-italian-9234607

“There is no threat at all to the continued participation of the two Italian teams.

“And there has been no official or unofficial contact with London Scottish, London Welsh, London Irish or anybody else."

Short and to the point. That should put an end to the present speculation. No London Scots/Welsh in Pro12 and the Italians are staying

Munchkin wrote:“There is no threat at all to the continued participation of the two Italian teams.

“And there has been no official or unofficial contact with London Scottish, London Welsh, London Irish or anybody else."

Short and to the point. That should put an end to the present speculation. No London Scots/Welsh in Pro12 and the Italians are staying

That certainly puts an end to the deliberate misinformation being spread about travel costs, etc. Some of the Pro12 coaches have also commented that they want to see the Italian teams stay in the league as well.

No one seems to be coming out and saying "wow - London Welsh and London Scottish - that'd really liven up the league" - it's been more - "well that might give us a few more chimney pots in England, never mind the quality of the team".

From what I can gather, the push for bringing in LW (in particular) has come from one Welsh region and has got this bandwagon rolling with kite-flying and speculative leaks.

Let's see how it plays out.

Which Welsh region is it?

Pot Hale wrote:
That certainly puts an end to the deliberate misinformation being spread about travel costs.

Why is it deliberate misinformation?

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:“There is no threat at all to the continued participation of the two Italian teams.

“And there has been no official or unofficial contact with London Scottish, London Welsh, London Irish or anybody else."

Short and to the point. That should put an end to the present speculation. No London Scots/Welsh in Pro12 and the Italians are staying

That certainly puts an end to the deliberate misinformation being spread about travel costs, etc.   Some of the Pro12 coaches have also commented that they want to see the Italian teams stay in the league as well.

No one seems to be coming out and saying "wow - London Welsh and London Scottish - that'd really liven up the league" - it's been more - "well that might give us a few more chimney pots in England, never mind the quality of the team".

From what I can gather, the push for bringing in LW (in particular) has come from one Welsh region and has got this bandwagon rolling with kite-flying and speculative leaks.

Let's see how it plays out.

Slightly selective reporting there Pot Hale! We've also had some Irish posters who said that Italy was the key to the 'chimney pots', and other Irish posters suggesting that if the Italian teams leave then the WRU should instead bring in a North Wales region by promoting RGC1404 despite the obvious lack of quality of this team (they're below the Welsh Premier league).

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:“There is no threat at all to the continued participation of the two Italian teams.

“And there has been no official or unofficial contact with London Scottish, London Welsh, London Irish or anybody else."

Short and to the point. That should put an end to the present speculation. No London Scots/Welsh in Pro12 and the Italians are staying

That certainly puts an end to the deliberate misinformation being spread about travel costs, etc.   Some of the Pro12 coaches have also commented that they want to see the Italian teams stay in the league as well.

No one seems to be coming out and saying "wow - London Welsh and London Scottish - that'd really liven up the league" - it's been more - "well that might give us a few more chimney pots in England, never mind the quality of the team".

From what I can gather, the push for bringing in LW (in particular) has come from one Welsh region and has got this bandwagon rolling with kite-flying and speculative leaks.

Let's see how it plays out.

Slightly selective reporting there Pot Hale! We've also had some Irish posters who said that Italy was the key to the 'chimney pots', and other Irish posters suggesting that if the Italian teams leave then the WRU should instead bring in a North Wales region by promoting RGC1404 despite the obvious lack of quality of this team (they're below the Welsh Premier league).

Not really.  I wasn't talking about the nationality of posters on here.   I may have missed any of the 'wow - London Welsh playing in the Pro12 league" posts, but there has been a lot of commentary here and elsewhere about access to the UK market - more "existing chimney pots".   Italians are probably more 'future chimney pots' - if indeed, the Italians even have chimney pots - they probably have much more fancy things - terracotta-panelled Venetian flues or something.

I'm looking at the Premiership table and LW's record - P21 W0 D0 L21 and they have a single solitary point to their name. Even Zebre or Aironi on their worst days couldn't manage that. Rotherham Titans also managed a 0-22 duck in the Premiership back in the early 2000s but at least managed a miserly 3 points.

And London Welsh might join the Pro12 at the expense of an Italian team?