Scotland u20s World Cup thread

by 123456789 Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

First game is 7:30 tonight, seems a good opportunity to discuss performances and prospects of players. Especially with the enormous gap left behind at the pro teams during the senior World Cup.

by highland_scot Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:13 pm

But can't win points when they have a man in the bin. Is this Edinburgh in disguise?

by **George Carlin** Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:14 pm

6-9 to the jocks.

The tango exponents worryingly very much in this despite our apparent dominance.

by GLove39 Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:26 pm

Disappointing miss that on the stroke of half time.
Highlight of the game so far has been that tackle by number 14 Galloway around the 26 minute mark, almost split the Argentinean in two!

by GLove39 Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:33 pm

That was a great try Yahoo

by **RDW** Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:39 pm

Rush home to get the game on my laptop -

'configuring windows, 30% complete'
restarting.

Gaaaaah!

by GLove39 Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:40 pm

by GLove39 Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:41 pm

Another Scottish try Yahoo

all coming from a scrum against the head Shocked

by GLove39 Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:42 pm

How many more can the u20s score before RDW's laptop gets its Poopie together!?

by **RDW** Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:43 pm

Restarts

'configuring windows updates, 37% complete'

Ffs!

by **RDW** Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:44 pm

I'm in!

Bet we end up losing now and I miss all the action.

by GLove39 Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:54 pm

The best kilt I've ever seen!
Scotland u20s World Cup thread - Page 2 CHJoHGdXIAAG9Qp

by GLove39 Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:02 pm

Making mincemeat of the Pumas

by **RDW** Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:02 pm

We want 4!

by **RDW** Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:14 pm

Great win! Bradbury and Fagerson the standouts

by funnyExiledScot Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:35 pm

Fagerson is the top prospect in this crop. Handy given Murray retiring this season.

by **BigGee** Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:05 pm

Just watched the game, a great win and some really good individual performances from our young lads. Fargerson and Bradbury have been mentioned and we can also see what the fuss about Kinghorn is all about. There were plenty of other very good performances as well though and it makes you wonder how many of this team will get there chance at pro level. sadly probably not as many as deserve it!

It is worth saying as well that the great majority of these players will be back again at this level next year as well, even more promising! Fargerson however, like Johnny Gray before him, may possibly have outgrown it by then.

by aucklandlaurie Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:15 am

England v South Africa next Monday is going to be a must watch.

by **RDW** Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:33 am

BigGee wrote:Just watched the game, a great win and some really good individual performances from our young lads. Fargerson and Bradbury have been mentioned and we can also see what the fuss about Kinghorn is all about. There were plenty of other very good performances as well though and it makes you wonder how many of this team will get there chance at pro level. sadly probably not as many as deserve it!

It is worth saying as well that the great majority of these players will be back again at this level next year as well, even more promising! Fargerson however, like Johnny Gray before him, may possibly have outgrown it by then.

Unless Glasgow sign a couple of tightheads to replace Murray and Welsh, Fagerson will no doubt see gametime (he'll be 3rd choice as things stand). He is still a baby in tighthead terms though so will need looking after.

Bradbury looks absolutely ready to step up, and physically is a beast at under 20s level so should cope fine with the big boys. His problem is the level of competition at Edinburgh, and unfortuntately a lot of it is NSQ.

Denton, Du Preez, Coman, Manu

So he's 5th in line, 4th if Denton goes to the WC. Saying that I'd rather see him over someone like Mike Coman who, although he has turned into a solid player for the club, is never going to be more than that. At least Du Preez looks intentional class and Manu comes with a big reputation. Coman may be captain again though, which would significantly reduce the chances of Bradbury playing, which is a shame. He is still very young though - will only be 20 when the season starts! You don't see many 20 year old number 8s playing in other pro teams.

Jamie Ritchie has been a bit disappointing I think, but he definitely has the core attributes. He looks lightweight even at under 20s level, which suggests he's a couple of years off being ready for regular pro action. He works his nuts off every game and is very athletic, but he generally gets smashed in every tackle, whereas Bradbury gets over the gainline every contact. Jamie is even younger, and will only be 19 when the season starts so he's definitely got time to develop his physicality - I'm sure he'll come good.

by **BigGee** Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:58 am

I thought Wynn, the openside from Stirling County had a great game, as did Kelly in the backs. Hutchinson looked much better at FH this game and really controlled things well.

That is just highlighting a few players really but the list could be a whole lot longer, it really is a vintage crop for us and even more promising bearing in mind a lot of them will have another year at this level to develop even more. Hopefully a fair few of them will be given EDP contracts at least.

by Majestic83 Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:09 am

Only saw the highlights of the game as couldn't get away from work to watch it live.
Glad to hear Bradbury had a better game because against Ireland he was very very poor.
Been impressed by Paddy Kelly at centre, he is playing in France and getting a lot of game time so will be developing quickly. Looks a strong runner and has a good passing game, also was taking some of the clearance kicks against IReland and looks like he has a good boot on him.
Alec Coombes looked a lot better at 13 as well from the highlights I saw, how did he fair overall?

The other player I have been fairly impressed with in the tournament is Ruarai Knott, the Melrose back row. Mainly been used as a sub but against Ireland when he came on he really got stuck in and lifted the teams performance.

Big game next up against Australia, a game Scotland can go out and win though as Australia haven't looked anything special and the way the Scottish maul has been working Australia will really struggle to stop it.

Maybe the U20s could give the full Scotland team a lesson on how to do a rolling maul near the try line successfully?

by funnyExiledScot Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:49 am

Kinghorn could well be in the right place at the right time. Edinburgh have no depth at all at fly half and he looks composed with ball in hand.

RDW is right about Bradbury - good prospect but the number 8 position at Edinburgh is extremely strong. He may have to do a Mitch Eadie and find rugby elsewhere ultimately. A season or two at London Scottish could be just the ticket.

by **BigGee** Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:03 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Kinghorn could well be in the right place at the right time. Edinburgh have no depth at all at fly half and he looks composed with ball in hand.

RDW is right about Bradbury - good prospect but the number 8 position at Edinburgh is extremely strong. He may have to do a Mitch Eadie and find rugby elsewhere ultimately. A season or two at London Scottish could be just the ticket.

Kinghorn is a prospect, but only 18 so needs to be given a bit of time. He is not going to be the answer to Edinburgh's FH problems for a good few years yet. He played well at FB yesterday as well, that may be his better position.

Bradbury just needs to stay put and he will get more game time next season. There will be movement at Edinburgh as well, it would not surprise me to see Denton move on at the end of this contract, if he dos not get prematurely retired first. Either way, Edinburgh need to start managing their big ball carrying, concussion prone players a bit better than they have been.

by **RDW** Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:05 am

Kinghorn has signed a full pro contract like Ritchie did - he's not even an EDP!

You may have remembered a while ago me saying that two guys in my rugby team were involved with Scotland under 18s and said that Kinghorn was a cut above the rest and had the makings of a class player.

by Majestic83 Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:10 am

Yeah I remember you saying that. Kinghorn certainly looks a lot more developed than a lot of the others in terms of maturity and physicality yet I think he is one of the youngest in the team.
He is going to be a big guy for a stand off, sure they said he is about 6ft 5.
Reckon he will get to see a bit of game time For Edinburgh this season, maybe not many starting slots but certainly will get some game time from the bench.

Who was the other guy you mentioned RDW, was it the lock hunter-hill who is away on the MacPhail?

by **RDW** Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:22 am

Aye it was the big 2nd row.

At under 18s level you wonder if they stood out because they were bigger than everyone else, but I'm sure that isn't the case.

Kinghorn's official stats say he's 6ft 3, and I don't think that's too tall for a 10. He didn't look gangly or un-coordinated which is the main thing.

15 might be his best place to develop, with him moving to 10 after a couple of years as a pro.

by **RDW** Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:30 am

Majestic83 wrote:

Big game next up against Australia, a game Scotland can go out and win though as Australia haven't looked anything special and the way the Scottish maul has been working Australia will really struggle to stop it.

Scotland guaranteed at least 8th place, which I think would be the best result for a number of years. Win or lose we'd face Wales or Ireland in the next round - we beat Wales in the 6N and should have a lot of confidence facing Ireland again given what we have learnt since that performance.

I can't see us finishing 5th, but we do have a good shout at 7th I reckon.

by Majestic83 Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:33 am

Yeah he sounds very promising in the 2nd row as well. A big guy already for an 18 year old. Will be interesting to see how he does out in NZ and how Solomons uses him next season.

Kinghorn certainly very coordinated and has a good turn of pace on him.

Edinburgh certainly have some very promising young players on their books. Hunter-Hill, James Ritchie, Ally Miller, Bradbury, Kinghorn, Dean, Hoyland, Howarth. Hopefully they are developed properly and start to get game time over the next season for some and a couple seasons for the others and aren't held back by nsq in their positions!

Can see the likes of Ritchie, Miller and Howarth getting some time away with the 7s next season.

by **BigGee** Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:35 am

Majestic83 wrote:Yeah I remember you saying that. Kinghorn certainly looks a lot more developed than a lot of the others in terms of maturity and physicality yet I think he is one of the youngest in the team.
He is going to be a big guy for a stand off, sure they said he is about 6ft 5.
Reckon he will get to see a bit of game time For Edinburgh this season, maybe not many starting slots but certainly will get some game time from the bench.

I don't think we will see that much of him. Remember he is only just out of school and even though he looks a decent size, he will not be ready for professional rugby in any shape or form.

He will be spending a lot of time with the conditioners next year and a fair bit the year after. If he is breaking through at around 20 years old, then he will have done very well.

Ritchie is the same, way to much expectation, give him time and bring him through when he is ready. we might see all of them playing a bit of sevens next year, which could be no bad thing.

by **BigGee** Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:40 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Majestic83 wrote:

Big game next up against Australia, a game Scotland can go out and win though as Australia haven't looked anything special and the way the Scottish maul has been working Australia will really struggle to stop it.

Scotland guaranteed at least 8th place, which I think would be the best result for a number of years. Win or lose we'd face Wales or Ireland in the next round - we beat Wales in the 6N and should have a lot of confidence facing Ireland again given what we have learnt since that performance.

I can't see us finishing 5th, but we do have a good shout at 7th I reckon.

Well we have improved game on game in this tournament, which is especially pleasing and really should have beaten Ireland in our pool game. I would imagine they will be really up to having another crack at them. It is a tough tournament though, with a lot of games to play in a short space of time, I hope that they do not settle for what they have done and run out of steam.

by Majestic83 Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:56 am

BigGee wrote:
Majestic83 wrote:Yeah I remember you saying that. Kinghorn certainly looks a lot more developed than a lot of the others in terms of maturity and physicality yet I think he is one of the youngest in the team.
He is going to be a big guy for a stand off, sure they said he is about 6ft 5.
Reckon he will get to see a bit of game time For Edinburgh this season, maybe not many starting slots but certainly will get some game time from the bench.

I don't think we will see that much of him. Remember he is only just out of school and even though he looks a decent size, he will not be ready for professional rugby in any shape or form.

He will be spending a lot of time with the conditioners next year and a fair bit the year after. If he is breaking through at around 20 years old, then he will have done very well.

Ritchie is the same, way to much expectation, give him time and bring him through when he is ready. we might see all of them playing a bit of sevens next year, which could be no bad thing.

I think generally that is the case where the guys that age wont see game time for quite a while but I think the way Solomons has spoken about Kinghorn he has plans for him to be involved, not week in week out but to bring him in gently in first team action.
Most players at that age aren't ready for pro rugby physically but you do get exceptions and think Kinghorn could be one.
Glasgow have introduced a number of youngsters into their first team at 18/19 in the last few seasons like Hogg, Bennett, Gray so it can be done.
Looking at Ritchie then yes he is still a bit off playing first team rugby, that's why I think he will be given game time at 7s next season.
Now they have changed the focus of the 7s teams and it being used to develop some of the young promising guys the likes of Ritche will be used in it.

by **RDW** Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:58 am

If Kinghorn is to play 15 he's certainly ready I think - he's bigger than some of our current pro players!

Give him a decent break after the WC, a good pre-season and we'll maybe see him later in the year / 6N time.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:07 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:If Kinghorn is to play 15 he's certainly ready I think - he's bigger than some of our current pro players!

Give him a decent break after the WC, a good pre-season and we'll maybe see him later in the year / 6N time.

Agreed. Without wanting to sound too much lie ASBO, if they are good enough they're old enough. McGeechan was a big fan of future fly halves getting some early game time at 15 or 12, and 15 is not a position of strength for Edinburgh (now that Tonks is first choice at 10).

Cuthbert is ok but slow on the turn, Brown is used more on the wing (although I'd like to see more of him at 15 next season) and McLennan looks pretty bog standard.

I'd love to see Howarth and Kinghorn in action next season. Clearly not as regular starters, but 40 minutes at home against the Zebras or one of the Welsh teams would be just the ticket.

by EWT Spoons Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:18 am

Majestic83 wrote:
BigGee wrote:
Majestic83 wrote:Yeah I remember you saying that. Kinghorn certainly looks a lot more developed than a lot of the others in terms of maturity and physicality yet I think he is one of the youngest in the team.
He is going to be a big guy for a stand off, sure they said he is about 6ft 5.
Reckon he will get to see a bit of game time For Edinburgh this season, maybe not many starting slots but certainly will get some game time from the bench.

I don't think we will see that much of him. Remember he is only just out of school and even though he looks a decent size, he will not be ready for professional rugby in any shape or form.

He will be spending a lot of time with the conditioners next year and a fair bit the year after. If he is breaking through at around 20 years old, then he will have done very well.

Ritchie is the same, way to much expectation, give him time and bring him through when he is ready. we might see all of them playing a bit of sevens next year, which could be no bad thing.

I think generally that is the case where the guys that age wont see game time for quite a while but I think the way Solomons has spoken about Kinghorn he has plans for him to be involved, not week in week out but to bring him in gently in first team action.
.

Do you have a link to any thing Solomons has said about Kinghorn or any of our other young players? I'm hopeful but cautious with Solly and him bringing through young players.

by cp10 Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:52 am

Don't remember Kinghorn being mentioned but he mentions others like Bradbury, Dean and Ritchie.

Think this is the right link...
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/rugby/daily-record-rugby-show-alan-5575448

by funnyExiledScot Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:16 pm

I can't quite figure out where Ritchie is going to play. I originally heard of him being a 6, but noted that the U20s used him at 7 and he was hardly blasting through gaps and didn't look hugely physical in that role.

He's a young guy with plenty developing to do. With the contract given he's clearly been marked out as a big talent, and Solomons has certainly been around long enough to know what he's looking for.

by **BigGee** Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:30 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I can't quite figure out where Ritchie is going to play. I originally heard of him being a 6, but noted that the U20s used him at 7 and he was hardly blasting through gaps and didn't look hugely physical in that role.

He's a young guy with plenty developing to do. With the contract given he's clearly been marked out as a big talent, and Solomons has certainly been around long enough to know what he's looking for.

He strikes me as a player in the same sort of mould as Harley was when he came out of the U20's, no-one seemed completely sure where to play him either, some would say they still don't. Clearly Ritchie is a very good player, but won't play 6 or 8 professionally until he fills out a bit. Time is on his side though.

by CraigS1874 Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:48 pm

Well I know Dean was offered a contract at Worcester but rejected it as he thinks he will get game time at the start of next season, Ritchie is very athletic but needs a full year in the gym to bulk up.
Kinghorne looks good but I would prefer a ten to play week in week out at prem 1 instead of 10 minutes of the bench in a variety of positions. Howarth is also another good player so I can see him making it

by funnyExiledScot Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:53 pm

BigGee wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I can't quite figure out where Ritchie is going to play. I originally heard of him being a 6, but noted that the U20s used him at 7 and he was hardly blasting through gaps and didn't look hugely physical in that role.

He's a young guy with plenty developing to do. With the contract given he's clearly been marked out as a big talent, and Solomons has certainly been around long enough to know what he's looking for.

He strikes me as a player in the same sort of mould as Harley was when he came out of the U20's, no-one seemed completely sure where to play him either, some would say they still don't. Clearly Ritchie is a very good player, but won't play 6 or 8 professionally until he fills out a bit. Time is on his side though.

I would agree that there's some confusion, but I honestly don't understand why. Harley, when on his game, is a superb international class defensive 6 - he's a tackling machine with colossal workrate. His weakness has in the past been his pace (or lack thereof) and abilities with ball in hand, but he's worked hard on those areas and has made some strong carries/offloads this season.

As a lock I don't see him as anything other than a club player. He's certainly no threat whatsoever to the Grays, Gilchrist or Toolis at lock. Whereas at 6 who is better, particularly now that Brown is on the scrapheap? His biggest challenger is probably Strauss, but no reason not to play them both, with Denton or Ashe coming off the bench.

Back to Ritchie I agree with you. Plenty time for him to fill out - I don't want us to get into the habit of discarding players too soon.

by **George Carlin** Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:45 am

Just a reminder that we play those pesky Wallabies in the 5th place play off today.

Lineen in the Hootsmon below.

For those new to rugby, I have highlighted a piece of technical coaching terminology used in the interview:

HAVING achieved a notable breakthrough last Wednesday with a first ever win over Argentina in the World Under-20 Championship, Scotland could create a second piece of history if they can produce a result against Australia in today’s fifth place semi-final.

“Last time we played Australia was in South Africa [2012] and we got absolutely pumped. But that means nothing in the context of this match. The guys have an opportunity to do what we’ve never done before,” said the Scotland Under-20 head coach, Sean Lineen.

The young Wallabies were at the end of a heavy 46-13 thumping by South Africa in their final group match. More- over, they have lost on average three line-outs per match in the championship. But they did show that when they had possession they were dangerous.

“Australia are a quality team. They play a fast game with ball in hand. So we’ll have to stop them getting a lot of ball. Our set-piece has worked for us so far and we showed against Argentina that we can be an effective attacking team.

“Defensively we had a 92 per cent rate against Argentina, which is fantastic and the best ever. So that’s a benchmark that we want to replicate against this Australian team. We just don’t want the performance against Argentina to be a one-off. It’s important to back that up,” insisted Lineen.

For the final two rounds of the championship, the teams have a less compressed match schedule with a four-day gap now in place. That stretching-out of the tournament over the final two stages followed complaints four years ago, when the championship was last in Italy, from several teams, led by Ireland, who threatened to withdraw unless player welfare was improved.

“Hopefully it will make a difference physically. But when you’re on a roll that three-day cycle in the first three games was good,” said Lineen, whose players are now acclimatised to temperatures over 30 degrees accompanied by high humidity.

Rain and temperatures less high are forecast for today. For the match today against Australia, switched from Viadana to Calvisano, Scotland will be without their utility back-five forward, Neil Irvine-Hess, who received a bang on the head in last Wednesday’s match, and is therefore required to sit out this game under the concussion protocol, now in place for under-19 players and older.

Concussion has been an issue, too, for France, four of whose under-18s have been barred from taking any further part in the tournament.

Also forced to miss today’s game is prop Murray McCallum, now with Aberdeen Grammar Rugby, who sustained a slight injury against Argentina. McCallum, as with Irvine-Hess, should be fit to play in the last match against either Ireland or Wales. The absence of McCallum, however, has created an opportunity for his understudy Dan Elkington, the Watsonians front row.

Behind the scrum Lineen has selected the same back line that impressed against Argentina, while among the replacement backs, Stirling County’s Archie Russell returns after a two-match suspension for a dangerous tackle.

Scotland’s match against Australia at Calvisano will be followed by the two top-end semi-finals, with France playing New Zealand and then South Africa facing England.

Elsewhere, Ireland take on Wales in Viadana, which also hosts the game between Argentina and the home nation Italy and what could be a relegation game featuring Samoa and Japan.

l Co-optimists finished fifth in the final round of the GB7s at Colwyn Bay on Saturday after winning the Plate final with victory over Welsh Charitables. The Scots had hopes of reaching the Cup semi-final but defeats by eventual winners Samurai by 31-5, and Irish Wolfhounds by 22-19, consigned the Co-ops to the Plate, their consolation being a win over Welsh Charitables.

In the second tier competition, Co-ops blasted past Forces Exiles to take them through to the final against Welsh Charitables.

In the final, Co-ops made it a double over the Welsh side, winning 31-24.

Team: Scotland under-20 (v Australia) : B Kinghorn (Edinburgh), R Nairn (Harlequins), A Coombes (London Scottish), P Kelly (Le Parc), R Galloway (University of Birmingham); R Hutchinson (Northampton Saints), B Vellacott (Gloucester/Hartpury College); D Elkington (Watsonians), R Graham (Hawick), Z Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors), S Cummings (Glasgow Warriors/Glasgow Hawks), A Davidson (Glasgow Warriors/Glasgow Hawks), L Wynne (Stirling County), J Ritchie (capt, Edinburgh Rugby), M Bradbury (Edinburgh Rugby) Replacements S James (Bedford Blues), C Sheldon (Edinburgh Rugby/Watsonians), J Owlett (Exeter University), A Miller (Edinburgh Rugby/Watsonians), R Knott (Melrose), G Horne (Glasgow Hawks), T Galbraith (Melrose), A Russell (Stirling County)

by jimbopip Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:12 pm

GC, is it televised anywhere?

by **RDW** Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:13 pm

Usually on BT Sport 2.

by Converter Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:42 pm

BT Sport listings show that it is televising the NZ v France SF from 5.30pm and that's it, by the look of it.

by **RDW** Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:47 pm

Just looked on the SRU Tiwtter feed - will be broadcast from the World Rugby Website apparently

http://www.worldrugby.org/u20

by **George Carlin** Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:11 pm

When is kick off, likesay?

by Converter Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:12 pm

by **George Carlin** Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:19 pm

Converter wrote:4.30

Thanks Converter.

I did laugh as your posting rate seems to be about 5 posts a year so I'm very grateful that you chose to use one up in answering my question! Very Happy

by **RDW** Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:21 pm

That's local time - half 3 in Queen's English.

by Converter Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:23 pm

Thankfully, hastily spotted by RDW. I'll get the coat ...

by **RDW** Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:23 pm

Converter wrote:Thankfully, hastily spotted by RDW. I'll get the coat ...

See you in another 6 months! Hug

by Converter Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:47 pm

I can't find a live stream, only a live blog. Anyone having better luck ?

Btw, early score for Scotland by Coombes, converted by Kinghorn. 0-7.

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