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s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets?

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s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets? Empty s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets?

Post by hawkeye Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:02 pm

Just checked some of the scores in the two grass 250 tournaments played today and noticed that most of the sets have gone to tie breaks. In Stuttgart 4 of the 5 sets in singles so far have been tie breaks and in s-Hertogenbosh 3 of the 4 sets have been tie breaks.

Personally I'm always disappointed when sets are decided by a tie break.

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Post by LuvSports! Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:10 pm

That's good imo. Could suggest faster courts aka a bit of variety! That's what is needed on the tour! More grass, more carpet and more start contrasts in courts!

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Post by Guest82 Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:44 pm

Must be really fast courts.

Not a single break point in the Karlovic v Ito match.
1 break of serve in Haase v Verdasco (5 BP's)

No breaks in Monfils v Haider-Maurer (6 BP's)
4 (four!) breaks Troicki v Zverev (11 BP's)
1 break Groth v Lopez (11 BP's)

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Post by hawkeye Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:48 pm

LuvSports! wrote:That's good imo. Could suggest faster courts aka a bit of variety! That's what is needed on the tour! More grass, more carpet and more start contrasts in courts!

But it also means the serve is so dominant there is little point in playing the 12 service games. Why not just cut to the tie break? Or to save a little time just play the tie break. Or to save even more time why not just toss a coin? chin

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Post by LuvSports! Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:49 pm

Best post you have ever done.

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Post by LuvSports! Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:51 pm

It rewards different styles. Djokovic is winning everything pretty much through a counter punching style.
If there is ONE tournament where a big server or a s&v player can do well, then that is fine by me.

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Post by kingraf Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:52 pm

To be honest, I'm hardly.enamoured with a serve fest... But in doses, it can be entertaining enough. I remember last year's Wimbledon game between Djokovic and Tsonga, where they both served lights out in the third set. Was a remarkable passage of play.
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Post by banbrotam Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:10 pm

LuvSports! wrote:It rewards different styles.


What? The ability to serve? Wow!! Rolling Eyes

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Post by banbrotam Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:13 pm

I'm with HE on this one.

I'm all for faster surfaces and in fairness bring it on at Wimby as in my mind it favours Murray more the Nole (and Roger more than both!!) but not if it means no-one can break serve

Mind you it could just be the ability of the returners!!

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Post by Guest Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:26 pm

I really wish posters wouldn't associate holding serve as just banging down aces. Makes me want to throat punch you all!

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Post by Silver Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:24 pm

I thought that this forum was broadly in favour of a variety of surfaces and court speed?

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Post by hawkeye Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:30 pm

Mmm...

This is perhaps an extreme example to demonstrate my point.

If you get a great server who can consistently hit serves at 130 mph+ with variety then they would be expected to see great benefits whatever their return game is like. A serve like that would probably in most circumstances be enough to protect service games and this player would very likely play a few tie breakers. In a tie break anything can happen.

If the conditions reward serves more you may have players with a more average serve being rewarded in a similar way to a great server. You could get conditions that make a predictable 100/110 mph serve being dominant because the conditions make it difficult for that serve to be returned well. In other words most pro players would have a serve that is difficult to break.

That would result in lots of predictable tie break sets. Winners would just be decided in the lottery of a tie break. Much less skill involved if the field is leveled in this way and not much fun for spectators.

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Post by Guest Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:55 pm

Right because hugging the baseline and playing ultra passive tennis is skill in itself...

Variety is something for everyone. This isn't an exclusive boys club or something. Spectators want to see all sets of skills reap some reward.

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Post by temporary21 Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:19 pm

I thought the point was a court that let you do both if you're good enough, not countering one extreme with the other

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Post by JuliusHMarx Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:56 pm

Rafa - Bagdhatis 7-6, 6-7. I guess everyone has stopped watching?

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Post by temporary21 Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:24 pm

I was indeed watching after realising eurosport was actually showing it. Nadal takes the final set 6-2, bit low key, but more power at the end

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Post by Guest82 Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:45 pm

I'm not sure Rafa would be looking to go life and death with Bagdhatis. Not a positive scoreline, but I didn't see the match.

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Post by Guest Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:45 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Rafa - Bagdhatis 7-6, 6-7. I guess everyone has stopped watching?

Damn those big servers mad

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Post by summerblues Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:46 pm

But there were service breaks in both of those sets today.

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Post by banbrotam Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:16 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:Right because hugging the baseline and playing ultra passive tennis is skill in itself...

Variety is something for everyone. This isn't an exclusive boys club or something. Spectators want to see all sets of skills reap some reward.


I just think serve domination is grossly over-rated. It often leads to players who pay little attention to other aspects of their play - and a lot who are rubbish on the return and don't even bother to improve their movement

Everyone seems to go ape about a player who hits 10 aces a set, but rarely give the same respect to a player who breaks every other serve

I remember when Andy and Novak had their Wimby final, everyone was moaning about their inability to hold serve, as opposed to the superb skill they had at breaking it

The Stich SF and F performances at Wimbledon 91, are still the most boring robotic tennis I've ever seen at that stage of a slam and almost drove me away from the sport

And for me, skill-wise, having the ability to vary your game to keep yourself in a point is a superior skill to serving

I'd love the game even more, if only one serve was allowed

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Post by banbrotam Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:17 pm

summerblues wrote:But there were service breaks in both of those sets today.

Which you'd expect with two players with their all round skills

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Post by temporary21 Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:11 am

In any case from what I saw. It's a proper zippy fast grass court so tiebreakers a plenty as there will likely be at queens

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Post by summerblues Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:52 am

banbrotam wrote:The Stich SF and F performances at Wimbledon 91, are still the most boring robotic tennis I've ever seen at that stage of a slam
I agree that serve-fests can be very dull.  I would even say duller than endless baseline rallies.

Yet I also have to say that when I see the expression "boring robotic tennis", Djokovic comes right to my mind.

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Post by banbrotam Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:44 am

summerblues wrote:
banbrotam wrote:The Stich SF and F performances at Wimbledon 91, are still the most boring robotic tennis I've ever seen at that stage of a slam
I agree that serve-fests can be very dull.  I would even say duller than endless baseline rallies.

Yet I also have to say that when I see the expression "boring robotic tennis", Djokovic comes right to my mind.


You have a good point. Basically, I hate repetition of shots or rather the same shot tactics employed all the time

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Post by kingraf Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:10 pm

As an aside, Tomic wins the second set vs Rafa 7-6. Rafa was up a break, and up 4-2 in the tie break. The gun shyness continues.
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Post by summerblues Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:10 pm

Rafa going three sets with Tomic. Rafa had a MP in the TB (on Tomic's serve) and then lost the set when he double faulted on set point.

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Post by summerblues Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:12 pm

KR, it is good to know that your body has thawed in the warmth of the sunshine but your posts are now taking up tons of space.

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Post by kingraf Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:28 pm

summerblues wrote:KR, it is good to know that your body has thawed in the warmth of the sunshine but your posts are now taking up tons of space.

To be fair... I barely post though.
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Post by summerblues Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:32 pm

Rafa now up a break in the third set.

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Post by summerblues Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:50 pm

And Rafa takes the match. Monfils tomorrow.

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Post by TRuffin Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:17 pm

Good Rafa is being pushed and coming through or bad they can push him to the limit?

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:13 am

It's good that Rafa was being pushed and came through. This was his problem this season when he was pushed but didn't come through in the end so it's a good sign. Both Baggy and Tomic are good players on grass, I'm glad Rafa came through to reach the SF.

Rafa was serving well with many aces and he was hitting flatter shots. There's still room for improvement, at least to consolidate his breaks, not to lose his own service game after breaking serves. He's still nervous and DF when facing set point but managed to raise his level in the final set to win in the end. Overall very encouraging start to the grass season. I hope he dispatches Monfils quickly to reach the final.

It seems that Rafa is more relaxed now after the clay season as he has nothing to defend after the FO. This clay season seemed very burdensome to Rafa, given how poorly he played since the beginning of the season and was feeling pressurized having to defend his FO title.

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Post by lags72 Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:22 am

kingraf wrote:
summerblues wrote:KR, it is good to know that your body has thawed in the warmth of the sunshine but your posts are now taking up tons of space.

To be fair... I barely post though.

KR : I must confess to a cheeky urge to send your 'Location' tag (with its flowing prose about frozen/thawed bodies ......thunder & lightning) to Private Eye magazine for possible inclusion in their 'Pseuds Corner' column.
AFAIK they pay £10 for any reader contributions they publish, which I'd be more than happy to split with you.

Do we have a deal !? Wink

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Post by lags72 Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:37 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote: ...............................................

...............................................................................

It seems that Rafa is more relaxed now after the clay season as he has nothing to defend after the FO. This clay season seemed very burdensome to Rafa, given how poorly he played since the beginning of the season and was feeling pressurized having to defend his FO title.

Very much my own thinking.

I was pretty much alone in predicting that Rafa would get past Djokovic in that RG quarter, and then go on to retain his title. Obviously I was alone for good reason and could hardly have been more wrong there !
But .......I do have a hunch that he will be a serious threat at Wimbledon, and that the low expectation + lack of pressure will enhance his prospects. With a favourable draw he can certainly go deep, and once past the first week and into the business end anything can happen in a one-off match. It's not as though he hasn't enjoyed significant success on grass, and likewise when the USO rolls around.

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Post by hawkeye Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:42 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote: He's still nervous and DF when facing set point but managed to raise his level in the final set to win in the end.  

Rafa got a time violation when serving for the first set at 5-4 Ad Tomic (break point). As he is routinely targeted on crucial I wonder what the cumulative effect of this is having on his game and in particular his ability to play well on crucial points even when he doesn't get a tv chin

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Post by bogbrush Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:46 am

hawkeye wrote:
Belovedluckyboy wrote: He's still nervous and DF when facing set point but managed to raise his level in the final set to win in the end.  

Rafa got a time violation when serving for the first set at 5-4 Ad Tomic (break point). As he is routinely targeted on crucial I wonder what the cumulative effect of this is having on his game and in particular his ability to play well on crucial points even when he doesn't get a tv chin
You're right, there's no doubt that the Umpire is planning to have a profound effect on Nadals game.

Yes, they're trying to get him to play within the rules.
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Post by lags72 Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:54 am

bogbrush wrote:
hawkeye wrote:
Belovedluckyboy wrote: He's still nervous and DF when facing set point but managed to raise his level in the final set to win in the end.  

Rafa got a time violation when serving for the first set at 5-4 Ad Tomic (break point). As he is routinely targeted on crucial I wonder what the cumulative effect of this is having on his game and in particular his ability to play well on crucial points even when he doesn't get a tv chin
You're right, there's no doubt that the Umpire is planning to have a profound effect on Nadals game.

Yes, they're trying to get him to play within the rules.

Seems a but harsh to me bogbrush.

It's surely not fair for the Umpire to impose the rules of the game if - by doing so - it denies Rafa a tactical advantage and has an adverse effect on his ability to "play well on crucial points"....?

Maybe an ad-hoc special arrangement between Rafa and the Umpire along the lines of ......."ok Rafa, you're BP down, crucial stage of the match, and I know you like to fidget around even more than usual in these sort of situations. Take as long as you like, and I'll turn a blind eye......"

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Post by kingraf Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:47 am

lags72 wrote:
kingraf wrote:
summerblues wrote:KR, it is good to know that your body has thawed in the warmth of the sunshine but your posts are now taking up tons of space.

To be fair... I barely post though.

KR : I must confess to a cheeky urge to send your 'Location' tag (with its flowing prose about frozen/thawed bodies ......thunder & lightning) to Private Eye magazine for possible inclusion in their 'Pseuds Corner' column.
AFAIK they pay £10 for any reader contributions they publish, which I'd be more than happy to split with you.

Do we have a deal !? Wink

It's not actually my poem... so sure!!
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Post by summerblues Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:02 pm

Monfils hits 3 DFs in his 5 opening service points. Luckily he holds anyway.

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:29 pm

summerblues wrote:Monfils hits 3 DFs in his 5 opening service points.  Luckily he holds anyway.
He also hit 2 massive aces in that first service game too.

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Post by bogbrush Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:54 pm

Am I alone in thinking Rafa looks low on power here? He has good touch though.
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Post by summerblues Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:08 pm

Pretty straightforward, but Monfils is a bit of a clown and he had a few bad dips without which it could have been more competitive.

Nevertheless, Rafa is in the final and will be trying to get his second title of the season. Would it be funny if he swept through the grass court season?

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:16 pm

bogbrush wrote:Am I alone in thinking Rafa looks low on power here? He has good touch though.
I think in general he could generate enough power, one thing I would agree with his that his slice lacked a bit of bite and Monfils was taking advantage of that in particular.

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Post by It Must Be Love Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:17 pm

summerblues wrote:Pretty straightforward, but Monfils is a bit of a clown and he had a few bad dips without which it could have been more competitive.
Agree with that analysis, Rafa played well, but Monfils could have made it closer if he was mentally switched on all throughout.

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Post by Born Slippy Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:41 am

Two reasonably interesting looking finals today:

Rafa v Troicki : should be a walk in the park for Rafa but still doubts about his level at present. Shame Cilic didn't make it through as that might have given a better guide.

Mahut v Goffin : Mahut straight into the final of the first grass event. Goffin with a very good win over Muller in the SF though and slight favourite for me.

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s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets? Empty Re: s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets?

Post by kingraf Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:49 am

Yeah, Cilic would have been a better barometer of where Rafa is. He plays the sort of game that has knocked Rafa out of Wimbledon, or at least given him serious struggles, for the last few years. Troicki could still win, of course, but even if he does, you wouldn't think he has the artillery to best Rafa in a best of five, sowe can't glean much either way. Except, possibly, that Cilic has not yet quite woken up from being a grand Slam champion. Hopefully his mother will inform him.
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s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets? Empty Re: s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets?

Post by kingraf Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:28 pm

Nadal's serve looks bad, in the Michael Jackson sense, right now. 14 Aces vs Tomic, 9 in the first set alone vs Troicki.
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s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets? Empty Re: s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets?

Post by YvonneT Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:21 pm

Mahut wins s-Hertogenbosch after coming through qualifying. Definitely should get a Wimbledon wildcard now given that they usually give them to the winners of the UK grass challengers.

Rafa wins Stuttgart - really only seems to have a problem with the top 10 (or a subset of) at the moment. Certainly not the favourite for Wimbledon, but should be considered among the group with a good chance of winning.

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Post by kingraf Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:21 pm

Happy for Mahut, there's an article in Men's Health which chronicles, if not quite the depression, then the funk he got into when he lost THAT Wimbledon match, so it's always nice to see him win
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s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets? Empty Re: s-Hertogenbosh and Stuttgart. What's with all the tie break sets?

Post by temporary21 Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:54 pm

Nice to hear mahut winning, and for goffin continuing to truck along.  It's only s 250 but it is a nice signal of intent from rafa, that he isn't just gonna go away.  He's got the dog at queens first up though. Nasty start

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