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Prime Tyson v prime Tua

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Mon 22 Jun 2015, 10:27 am

First topic message reminder :

Late 80's Mike and mid 90's Tua

who wins


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Post by AdamT Wed 24 Jun 2015, 10:11 pm

Agreed fully, clearly a level above.

Tua is tough as they come and could bang but it comes down to skills.

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Post by Mayweathers cellmate Wed 24 Jun 2015, 10:40 pm

Tyson never boxed rings around anyone. He was a beast that came for a tear up. That's great until he faces even more of a beast.

If you were his trainer how would you advise him vs Tua? Meet Tua head on and risk getting KO'd, or box off the backfoot like he'd never done before in his life?

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Post by catchweight Wed 24 Jun 2015, 10:45 pm

"Go out and beat this guy, watch out for the left hook"

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Post by AdamT Wed 24 Jun 2015, 10:53 pm

Like I said get close but not too close. Keep the high guard, use lateral movement and attack from angles.

Take an odd back step then when Tua commits himself, hit him full smack with the overhand right.

Tua is a good fighter,I like him but think Tyson is a level above. Perhaps if Tua fought Tyson around 2000, the fight would be different.

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Post by Mayweathers cellmate Wed 24 Jun 2015, 10:58 pm

Ok, why do many give an old Foreman such a great chance of beating Mike?

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:04 pm

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:"I dont think I ever saw Tua actually outbox any half decent heavyweight. "

Much like Tyson. Out-boxing wasn't their game.

You can still outbox your opponent while being an aggressive, come-forward fighter with power. 'Outboxing' someone doesn't necessarily mean jabbing and moving around the ring at range, although a lot of people take it as the only measurement of the term. That's just one way of doing it.

Yep, a lot of Tyson's victories were down to just rolling over guys with his strength and punching power, but against guys like Tucker and Biggs he outjabbed them, showed better defence than them to slip shots, countered effectively, adjusted when he needed to etc - basically outboxed them. The fact that he also happened to be more aggressive and heavy-handed than them doesn't take away from that.
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Post by catchweight Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:10 pm

Basing it on a rumour that Tyson was scared of Foreman? Probably the same many that believe Tyson was a hype job, lost once his opponent wasnt intimidated, gassed ater 4 rounds etc etc Old george would have got his ass handed to him.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 24 Jun 2015, 11:18 pm

Loathe as I am to agree with such luminaries as Trussy, catchweight and Adam (and of course Chris Wink), I just see Tyson as having far too much for Tua.

Sure, the whole "prime Mike Tyson" can at times get overplayed, but at his best Tyson really was a fearsome proposition, in every sense of the word. Great speed, excellent movement and devastating power, the guy had pretty much the whole lot. Like Truss, the only heavyweight I'd back to beat that version of him with any great confidence is Ali. Obviously, a few others would have a good chance, but none I'd feel utterly comfortable of betting on.

People say Tyson doesn't have great wins on his record, and maybe that's true, but what he does have are very good fighters who he not only beat, but demolished, destroyed. Can't see anything better than that for Tua, who sits in the same "very good" category. His chin would keep him going a bit, but I'd back Tyson to get him our of there in six rounds at most.

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Post by AdamT Thu 25 Jun 2015, 7:47 am

I'm in good company

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Post by Mayweathers cellmate Thu 25 Jun 2015, 10:19 am

So despite old George being quite easy to out-box at that stage of his career loads of people, including Tyson's management apparently and the great Cus Tomato, think he was all wrong for Mike. How so?

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Post by AdamT Thu 25 Jun 2015, 10:21 am

Even is George is all wrong for Tyson, he is much taller than Tua.

Frazier was similar sized to Tyson, perhaps everyone fought the fight would be similar to a fight With tyson.

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Post by Mayweathers cellmate Thu 25 Jun 2015, 10:34 am

So team Tyson were scared of Foreman's height and reach?

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Post by AdamT Thu 25 Jun 2015, 10:37 am

Perhaps and the fact if he has the power to ko Tyson if he landed.

He dealt with Frazier swarming, perhaps Tyson team fought they could do the same.

I doubt Rooney and co would have had any anxiety facing Tua, which is the original topic.

I never said Tyson would definitely beat Foreman. For me that is a pickem or I might lean towards George if pushed.


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Post by Mayweathers cellmate Thu 25 Jun 2015, 10:49 am

Right, so they were scared of George because he could deal with Tyson on the inside and had the power to put him in serious trouble, the fact that he couldn't box in them days wasn't really an issue. For the same reasons I believe Tua to be all wrong for Tyson.

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Post by AdamT Thu 25 Jun 2015, 11:09 am

Tua is nowhere near as good as George. It is similar to saying Frazier beat Ali so Tyson must be able to get a victory over him as well.

I get were you are coming from mate. I respect your opinion but I still doubt Tua would get the job done. Anyway it is only speculation and we will never find out.

Have rather enjoyed this debate. No name calling or childish insults.

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Post by 88Chris05 Thu 25 Jun 2015, 1:05 pm

It splits opinion but I can’t really buy in to the idea that Tyson actively avoided Foreman when George returned in the late eighties / early nineties, or had no belief that he could beat him. Prime for prime is a different matter and I’m sure D’Amato’s words regarding Foreman against short, swarming fighters were echoing in his ears to some degree, but D’Amato (having no idea that Foreman might one day end up being a potential opponent for his charge) made those comments retrospectively about a young, peak Foreman, not the tubby, even slower, gassing and easily hittable one of Tyson’s era.

I know there are the old stories from Steve Lott about how King was supposedly trying to make the Foreman-Tyson fight only for Tyson to jump up and say, “I’m not fighting that animal, if you love the mot*erfu*ker so much, you fight him!” and all that jazz, but for me that story has always struck me as a small bit of truth mixed in with a lot of creative licence, exaggeration and myth.

Foreman didn’t start fighting anyone remotely close (and I mean only just remotely) to the top of the Heavyweight tree in his comeback until around about the same time as Tyson lost to Douglas. Before that, in 1988 he’d turned up at 235 lb – the lowest weight of his ‘second career’ by a considerable distance – and in shape against a podgy, 5’6 Qawi who was never a Heavy in a month of Sundays and still got bamboozled for six rounds and hit with every shot in the book before Qawi ran out of gas and was just overpowered. Doesn’t bear thinking about what a 1988 Tyson would have done to Foreman on that showing. Foreman’s name carried value from 1987 – 1990 but in terms of who he was beating it’s hard to make a case for him being a deserving world title challenger to Tyson at that point.

Maybe the fight could have happened immediately after Tyson lost to Douglas, but Holyfield fought Foreman in 1991 and was widely criticised for doing so – it was only after Foreman performed a lot more impressively than most expected that the fight really started to look legitimate. Nevertheless, Foreman was still beaten clearly enough (and saved by the bell at least once, arguably twice), as he was against Morrison two years later as well. He was always a dangerous puncher, of course, but I find it hard to imagine Tyson or his team looking at THAT version of Foreman and not being able to see a way to win.

Around that time Tyson had his two fights with Ruddock which were a hell of a lot more legitimate than a Foreman scrap. Ruddock was rated number two (Tyson number one) to all three of Holyfield’s belts and if Tyson had fought the old, lumbering Foreman at that point we’d probably be hearing now about how he ducked the most dangerous Heavyweight out there in Ruddock. The whole world wanted Tyson-Holyfield, and beating Ruddock was the quickest route Tyson could take to making it happen (although I’m always curious as to why King was screaming, “We don’t want Holyfield!” behind Tyson in his post-fight interview after Ruddock II). Sadly prison got in the way of that one, though.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 25 Jun 2015, 1:13 pm

People forget that George's comeback was regarded as a "JOKE"........

My advice to anybody who thinks Tyson avoided him is to pick up an old copy of KO, Boxing illustrated and The Ring !!

Most observers thought Foreman was more of a danger to himself..

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Post by Mayweathers cellmate Thu 25 Jun 2015, 1:49 pm

Tyson v Foreman was the biggest fight in boxing in 1990.

Foreman's toughness and power were no JOKE.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 25 Jun 2015, 1:50 pm

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:Tyson v Foreman was the biggest fight in boxing in 1990.

Foreman's toughness and power were no JOKE.

No it wasn't.......................TYSON v HOLY was................

Foreman was regarded as a joke until he went the distance with Holy...

Stop reinventing history..

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Post by AdamT Thu 25 Jun 2015, 1:52 pm

Foreman would not of beat Tyson. That is the fat 40 something George.

In his peak, possibly he could of won. On the fence with that one.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 25 Jun 2015, 1:56 pm

He's making out Tyson avoided him..............

Foreman was fighting stiffs on ESPN back then..........and taking pictures of himself stuffing cheeseburgers in his mouth...

I remember a 1991 cover of KO magazine............"Can Holy get rid of the fat joke in 5 minutes ??"

That's how much Foreman was thought of in 1991..

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Post by AdamT Thu 25 Jun 2015, 2:00 pm

Tyson is seriously underrated by some. I guess he is overrated by others as well.

I have him top 10 and he beats most on the list. Only one or 2 guys I would have confidence to pick on beating Tyson.


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Post by Mayweathers cellmate Thu 25 Jun 2015, 2:03 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Mayweathers cellmate wrote:Tyson v Foreman was the biggest fight in boxing in 1990.

Foreman's toughness and power were no JOKE.

No it wasn't.......................TYSON v HOLY was................

Foreman was regarded as a joke until he went the distance with Holy...

Stop reinventing history..

So he wasn't a joke?

Holyfield may have been better than old George and more deserving of a shot against Tyson, but Foreman was a bigger name.

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Post by Scottrf Thu 25 Jun 2015, 2:08 pm

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:Holyfield may have been better than old George and more deserving of a shot against Tyson, but Foreman was a bigger name.
Ali is still the biggest name in boxing, doesn't make him a good opponent.

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Post by Mayweathers cellmate Thu 25 Jun 2015, 2:11 pm

Ali is not in boxing.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 25 Jun 2015, 2:17 pm

His best win by 1991 was a four year retired Gerry Cooney in 1990 mate..........Cooney had been hammered by Spinks in 86 in his last fight..

KO magazine picked Cooney to win !! and the odds were pickem...

Can see Tyson being scared of a guy like that !!..

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Post by Mayweathers cellmate Thu 25 Jun 2015, 5:54 pm

When we hear of a fighter being 'scared' of another what is usually meant is that their management think it would be a risky fight. However, Tyson was actually scared of Foreman according to those around him.

Foreman was still the bigger name. Holyfield was seen as a caretaker champion until Tyson's return, his greatness was applied retrospectively. Wasn't he a 25/1 underdog to beat Tyson.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Thu 25 Jun 2015, 6:05 pm

Tyson against Holyfield was the big Heavyweight in the early 90's, derailed by his loss to Douglas and subsequent incarceration, MC is massively over rating old fat Foreman.

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Post by Mayweathers cellmate Thu 25 Jun 2015, 8:32 pm

Old fat Foreman (much like Tua) could be easily outboxed by a top boxer, but (much like Tua) he couldn't be bullied .

Tyson was a bully.

I've got nothing against Mike, it's a styles thing. Chris Byrd out boxed Tua and probably would have beaten Foreman, but i reckon Tyson would have smashed him to bits.

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