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Athletics scandal should be a wake up call to Boxing fans and ruling authorities..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 12:36 pm

55 gold medallists and a 146 medal winning athletes between 01-12 returned abnormal tests.............Scandalous amount and hushed up too !!

Generally Athletics is better run and the people who are involved tend to be of a higher intellectual capacity both in competition and in other back room capacities...

In the less well run and murkier World of Boxing which offers, like Athletics, great reward ...How can we take anything at face value.....

It's controversial but Me I'd get rid of testing altogether............Because I don't buy anything now or since steroids became common place from the 60s onwards....

The sporting arena is a tough place..........and it's only profitable for the those near the top.....

Go figure..


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Post by hazharrison Mon 10 Aug 2015, 12:56 pm

So you think everyone from the 60s has been cheating?

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Post by Valero's Conscience Mon 10 Aug 2015, 12:59 pm

Sports are too competitive for there not to be cheating.

It's rife in most sports, all the governing bodies are aware but too much public shaming is damaging to their sports.

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Post by Gentleman01 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 1:08 pm

The argument for legalising all PEDs is actually one that I do have a little sympathy for, keeping in mind my long-held belief that many of the world's top athletes are using, or have in the past, used PEDs.

It's frustrating to think of all the gifted, principled, and clean athletes who compete and train by the book, missing out on success, and in some cases entire athletic careers, due to their unwillingness to cheat. If doping were made legal, then these people could then compete and win without compromising their own sense of morality.

However, ultimately, it's not actually a policy I favour, for a couple of reasons. The first being that; each athlete responds to PEDs differently. Some find that the doping boosts their performance more considerably than it boosts others creating a disparity which, presumably, the blanket legalisation policy's sole aim is to eradicate.

Secondly, the top sporting titles are far more likely to simply go to the athletes with the best funding and scientific / medical backing. Creating an almost Formula 1 scenario in which it is not necessarily the best driver who wins, but the best car/team.

Thirdly, without being an expert in this area (perhaps someone could enlighten me?), I assume that the amount of PEDs and blood doping an athlete is prepared to indulge in is restricted by the fact that they are still illegal and, as such, the competitors need to avoid being caught. This presumably restricts their use, at least partially. If this restriction is completely lifted, what is to stop the top athletes doping up to their eyeballs? Again, I am no expert here, but perhaps this could cause longer-term health concerns?

I really do abhor cheating, it undermines the whole ethos of sport, however I still think the best way to combat this is harsher punishments for those caught cheating, more transparent governing bodies and anti-doping agency practices, and for stricter and more frequent testing, especially in Boxing.

I expect that, despite all these provisions, dopers will still find a way to cheat. However, I don't really see any other option.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 1:47 pm

hazharrison wrote:So you think everyone from the 60s has been cheating?

Nope..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 1:54 pm

Gentleman01 wrote:The argument for legalising all PEDs is actually one that I do have a little sympathy for, keeping in mind my long-held belief that many of the world's top athletes are using, or have in the past, used PEDs.

It's frustrating to think of all the gifted, principled, and clean athletes who compete and train by the book, missing out on success, and in some cases entire athletic careers, due to their unwillingness to cheat. If doping were made legal, then these people could then compete and win without compromising their own sense of morality.

However, ultimately, it's not actually a policy I favour, for a couple of reasons. The first being that; each athlete responds to PEDs differently. Some find that the doping boosts their performance more considerably than it boosts others creating a disparity which, presumably, the blanket legalisation policy's sole aim is to eradicate.

Secondly, the top sporting titles are far more likely to simply go to the athletes with the best funding and scientific / medical backing. Creating an almost Formula 1 scenario in which it is not necessarily the best driver who wins, but the best car/team.

Thirdly, without being an expert in this area (perhaps someone could enlighten me?), I assume that the amount of PEDs and blood doping an athlete is prepared to indulge in is restricted by the fact that they are still illegal and, as such, the competitors need to avoid being caught. This presumably restricts their use, at least partially. If this restriction is completely lifted, what is to stop the top athletes doping up to their eyeballs? Again, I am no expert here, but perhaps this could cause longer-term health concerns?

I really do abhor cheating, it undermines the whole ethos of sport, however I still think the best way to combat this is harsher punishments for those caught cheating, more transparent governing bodies and anti-doping agency practices, and for stricter and more frequent testing, especially in Boxing.  

I expect that, despite all these provisions, dopers will still find a way to cheat. However, I don't really see any other option.

Marvellous post of which there are many points I agree with.......However you overrate the effects of steroids....The best funding and scientific teams is no substitute for talent, skill and technique and never will be......

Steroids are no match for hard work and there are plenty of people that use them that look like crap......They enhance rather than make !!.

Many bodybuilders would be more clued up than Arnie, Zane and probably took higher doses..........But they could never be as good...

If Athletics is rife then for me it goes without saying that a darker, murkier sport like ours must be full of them...

You aren't going to stop the cheats especially when the authorities are often compliant.


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Post by kingraf Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:01 pm

Let's just see how many athletes suddenly pick up "congenital" Heart defects in their fifties. Or have a heart attack in the middle of a fight. Whatevs.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:02 pm

what do you mean let's wait ??

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Post by kingraf Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:07 pm

To be honest, it falls under two camps; you either believe sport is generally clean, or you don't. Under current conditions, neither is a provable fact. Ergo, a bit like the Golden Era of bodybuilding and wrestling in the 80s, it's only when years of abuse accumulates in rather premature deaths from enlargened hearts, or failed kidneys that anyone says anything.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:12 pm

1000 players between 91-03...admitted to using steroids during High school football careers...........Those are the ones that admitted it...

You can't prove an elephant couldn't tap dance on the Golden Gate bridge......But we can surmise an answer...


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Post by compelling and rich Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:14 pm

peds certainly do cause long term health issues, you only have to look at the average life of the wwe wrestlers to see that. steroids cause a much higher risk in heart attack and stroke, as well as other issues like clots and liver and kidneys damage.

it isnt just steroids either, high majority of athletes will be on stuff like EPO to improve red blood count meaning the body can carry more oxygen around the system better, but this causes the blood to thicken. meaning that the heart has to work harder meaning again massive increases in risk of heart attack and other cardio vascular issues

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:21 pm

You're wrong..

Without wanting to endorse steroids..

Steroids taken properly are as safe as alcohol and smoking...........

Like with people who die taking those chemicals it's the ones that abuse the stuff that die..

A lot of ignorance when it comes to PEDS....

How old are Arnie and Frank Zane...

HIV sufferers take testosterone to keep them alive and well...

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Post by Coxy001 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:26 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Gentleman01 wrote:The argument for legalising all PEDs is actually one that I do have a little sympathy for, keeping in mind my long-held belief that many of the world's top athletes are using, or have in the past, used PEDs.

It's frustrating to think of all the gifted, principled, and clean athletes who compete and train by the book, missing out on success, and in some cases entire athletic careers, due to their unwillingness to cheat. If doping were made legal, then these people could then compete and win without compromising their own sense of morality.

However, ultimately, it's not actually a policy I favour, for a couple of reasons. The first being that; each athlete responds to PEDs differently. Some find that the doping boosts their performance more considerably than it boosts others creating a disparity which, presumably, the blanket legalisation policy's sole aim is to eradicate.

Secondly, the top sporting titles are far more likely to simply go to the athletes with the best funding and scientific / medical backing. Creating an almost Formula 1 scenario in which it is not necessarily the best driver who wins, but the best car/team.

Thirdly, without being an expert in this area (perhaps someone could enlighten me?), I assume that the amount of PEDs and blood doping an athlete is prepared to indulge in is restricted by the fact that they are still illegal and, as such, the competitors need to avoid being caught. This presumably restricts their use, at least partially. If this restriction is completely lifted, what is to stop the top athletes doping up to their eyeballs? Again, I am no expert here, but perhaps this could cause longer-term health concerns?

I really do abhor cheating, it undermines the whole ethos of sport, however I still think the best way to combat this is harsher punishments for those caught cheating, more transparent governing bodies and anti-doping agency practices, and for stricter and more frequent testing, especially in Boxing.  

I expect that, despite all these provisions, dopers will still find a way to cheat. However, I don't really see any other option.

Marvellous post of which there are many points I agree with.......However you overrate the effects of steroids....The best funding and scientific teams is no substitute for talent, skill and technique and never will be......

Steroids are no match for hard work and there are plenty of people that use them that look like crap......They enhance rather than make !!.

Many bodybuilders would be more clued up than Arnie, Zane and probably took higher doses..........But they could never be as good...

If Athletics is rife then for me it goes without saying that a darker, murkier sport like ours must be full of them...

You aren't going to stop the cheats especially when the authorities are often compliant.


Tripe.

A factually based argument that chugging down steroids does enhance performance is as follows:

Michelle Smith (now DeBruin). Irish swimmer who at Atlanta in '96 took 21 seconds off her 400m PB time. Yes, 21 seconds. At her trial it was claimed that she took a steroid (Androstenedione) and hence why she spiked her sample with enough whisky that when the results came back she should've been more than dead if she'd drunk that amount of the brown stuff.

To summarise: Steroids helped her take 21 seconds off her PB over a 400m swim and took her from 90th in the world to #1.

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Post by kingraf Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:28 pm

So a thousand out of probably a couple hundred thousand admitting to being dirty does what? Of one man steals a six pack in a crowd of 100 is it generally a dirty crowd?
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:31 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Gentleman01 wrote:The argument for legalising all PEDs is actually one that I do have a little sympathy for, keeping in mind my long-held belief that many of the world's top athletes are using, or have in the past, used PEDs.

It's frustrating to think of all the gifted, principled, and clean athletes who compete and train by the book, missing out on success, and in some cases entire athletic careers, due to their unwillingness to cheat. If doping were made legal, then these people could then compete and win without compromising their own sense of morality.

However, ultimately, it's not actually a policy I favour, for a couple of reasons. The first being that; each athlete responds to PEDs differently. Some find that the doping boosts their performance more considerably than it boosts others creating a disparity which, presumably, the blanket legalisation policy's sole aim is to eradicate.

Secondly, the top sporting titles are far more likely to simply go to the athletes with the best funding and scientific / medical backing. Creating an almost Formula 1 scenario in which it is not necessarily the best driver who wins, but the best car/team.

Thirdly, without being an expert in this area (perhaps someone could enlighten me?), I assume that the amount of PEDs and blood doping an athlete is prepared to indulge in is restricted by the fact that they are still illegal and, as such, the competitors need to avoid being caught. This presumably restricts their use, at least partially. If this restriction is completely lifted, what is to stop the top athletes doping up to their eyeballs? Again, I am no expert here, but perhaps this could cause longer-term health concerns?

I really do abhor cheating, it undermines the whole ethos of sport, however I still think the best way to combat this is harsher punishments for those caught cheating, more transparent governing bodies and anti-doping agency practices, and for stricter and more frequent testing, especially in Boxing.  

I expect that, despite all these provisions, dopers will still find a way to cheat. However, I don't really see any other option.

Marvellous post of which there are many points I agree with.......However you overrate the effects of steroids....The best funding and scientific teams is no substitute for talent, skill and technique and never will be......

Steroids are no match for hard work and there are plenty of people that use them that look like crap......They enhance rather than make !!.

Many bodybuilders would be more clued up than Arnie, Zane and probably took higher doses..........But they could never be as good...

If Athletics is rife then for me it goes without saying that a darker, murkier sport like ours must be full of them...

You aren't going to stop the cheats especially when the authorities are often compliant.


Tripe.

A factually based argument that chugging down steroids does enhance performance is as follows:

Michelle Smith (now DeBruin). Irish swimmer who at Atlanta in '96 took 21 seconds off her 400m PB time. Yes, 21 seconds. At her trial it was claimed that she took a steroid (Androstenedione) and hence why she spiked her sample with enough whisky that when the results came back she should've been more than dead if she'd drunk that amount of the brown stuff.

To summarise: Steroids helped her take 21 seconds off her PB over a 400m swim and took her from 90th in the world to #1.

I'm talking about boxing.............

Steroids don't give you footwork like Ray robbo, make you see a punch...move and counter....

I said they were an enhancer .......But you have to have the talent to begin with and they are also more useful in different sports..

read before you comment.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:33 pm

kingraf wrote:So a thousand out of probably a couple hundred thousand admitting to being dirty does what? Of one man steals a six pack in a crowd of 100 is it generally a dirty crowd?

They didn't ask everybody......and steroids are illegal in America.

Give me strength..

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Post by kingraf Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:36 pm

To be honest, if you improve 21 seconds off your time, dope or no dope, you were probably Frak around early on in your career
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:37 pm

kingraf wrote:To be honest, if you improve 21 seconds off your time, dope or no dope, you were probably Frak around early on in your career

It does seem a lot doesn't it...

She only got caught because she put whiskey in her sample...Months later....

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Post by kingraf Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:39 pm

What's the sample size? What were their improvements? Why would a thousand people taking dope and failing to make it (I assume they asked laymen?) prove that steroids can in fact help you make it? Sounds rather counter productive. I don't doubt that American football is rife with PEDs, just more that the study sounds a little thick
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Post by kingraf Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:42 pm

It seems excessive, really. Ped's have always been about that last 1-2%. The entire 606v2 Forum could pump itself with the finest drugs known to man and none of us would see an Olympic. Except Milky in the women's squash event.
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Post by Gentleman01 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 4:12 pm

I don't think I've overrated the effect of steroids. For sure, I completely agree with you, that simply taking PEDs will not make an athlete a world beater in any sport, especially in one as reliant on skill and mental fortitude as Boxing.

However, they obviously do offer a physical advantage and, no matter how slim that advantage, it renders the contest outcome obsolete.

I appreciate that PEDs do not a Champion make. However, for sport to mean anything then it must be fair and if one competitor had access to PEDs, or PEDs of a significantly higher quality than their opponent, then it is simply not fair.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 5:00 pm

Only renders the contest obsolete If it's a minority taking them...I imagine it's a pretty level playing field already.

My opinion is if more respected sports are rife..........Then the depth of the problem is probably bigger than people imagine..

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Post by Rowley Mon 10 Aug 2015, 5:19 pm

I am very much with Gent on this one. The idea that a person who wants to do things right and compete based solely on his talent and commitment to living and training right should be disadvantaged is not one that sits right with me, and was this the case sport would certainly lose something of the appeal it has for me. That said I am not naïve enough to believe some of the performances I have enjoyed have not been aided in some way without my knowledge, but there is a world of difference between that and knowing who you are watching is getting an advantage through their willingness to cheat.
 
For me saying everyone is at it so why try to stop it is just too defeatist, in other walks of life we don’t see the police saying we have tried for years to stop drink driving without success so why bother trying any more, likewise sport should not just admit defeat in the fight against PED’s, as others have already alluded to better testing and serious and severe punishments should be the answer. Make the punishment for getting caught sufficient to discourage fighters from offending. Life bans, stripped of your world titles and life time bans from ever making the hall of fame would be a good start.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 8:40 pm

I haven't said everyone is at...

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Post by Scottrf Tue 11 Aug 2015, 9:56 am

EPO surely has much greater use in boxing than steroids.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Aug 2015, 10:07 am

Scottrf wrote:EPO surely has much greater use in boxing than steroids.

Dangerous though isn't it.............Shed loads have died from it......

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Post by Scottrf Tue 11 Aug 2015, 10:11 am

I don't know, but boxing testing is woefully inadequate. Cyclists are some of the most tested athletes in sport, and they almost all got away with it over years of use. Mosley is the only one I know of to use EPO, and that was because he admitted it, not because he was caught. I'm sure it's widespread.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Aug 2015, 11:01 am

Makes you wonder If the cycling authorities can be leaned on or incompetent...........What chance have we got with a more unprofessional less regulated sport.......

I have nothing but admiration for clean fighters doing it the right way...But unless they are special... I think many are trying to climb a mountain during a snowstorm..

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Post by kingraf Tue 11 Aug 2015, 1:24 pm

You'd imagine testosterone is widespread, given the fact that Nevada allows you to compete with 6x the normal levels (don't know how true that is, but someone mentioned it regarding Lamont Peterson)
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 11 Aug 2015, 1:30 pm

It's not 6 times Raf but 6mg per whatever, Peterson was within the legal limits but VADA test for synthetic regardless of level.

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Post by kingraf Tue 11 Aug 2015, 1:32 pm

Cheers
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Post by Scottrf Tue 11 Aug 2015, 1:34 pm

It's actually the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone.

6mg testosterone doesn't even make sense.

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Post by Coxy001 Tue 11 Aug 2015, 1:38 pm

Scottrf wrote:It's actually the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone.

6mg testosterone doesn't even make sense.

Yeah wasn't aware of it being measured in mass....

Talking of oestrogen, where has strongy gone?!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Aug 2015, 1:39 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's not 6 times Raf but 6mg per whatever, Peterson was within the legal limits but VADA test for synthetic regardless of level.

Right....They test for banned substances not the amount...

I mean a beginners cycle is 250-500 mg of test.............6mg is paltry but shows they've been on something....Any less than 6mg an athlete can argue he got a negative reading from legal nutrients...

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Post by Coxy001 Tue 11 Aug 2015, 1:48 pm

Not sure why anyone would take testosterone when he shrinks your dong. Let alone an amateur sportsman who simply wants to pump iron in the gym.

Just cheating yourself.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Aug 2015, 1:49 pm

Coxy001 wrote:Not sure why anyone would take testosterone when he shrinks your dong. Let alone an amateur sportsman who simply wants to pump iron in the gym.

Just cheating yourself.

Sub Rolling Eyes tle as ever...

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Post by AdamT Wed 12 Aug 2015, 9:29 am

Coxy001 wrote:Not sure why anyone would take testosterone when he shrinks your dong. Let alone an amateur sportsman who simply wants to pump iron in the gym.

Just cheating yourself.

wtf are you talking about, testosterone shrinks your dong!! Do a bit of research, it's your testes that shrinks.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 12 Aug 2015, 12:16 pm

My nuts shrink when I'm on..........

But they always go back to the original size...

Like I said it's only those that abuse the stuff that have fertility problems....I managed to get the job done !! Wink

Steroids should be like drink and recreational drugs....Done in moderation....

But they are no substitute for hard work......

Best to avoid...

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Post by AdamT Wed 12 Aug 2015, 12:18 pm

Get the test in yeh!!!!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 12 Aug 2015, 12:27 pm

Wrote a warts and all article on Steroids in the bodybuilding section.....

Pretty much encompasses everything..

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