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So when will Lancaster resign.....I guess after the wc once the rfu have paid up

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Post by kingelderfield Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:54 am

First topic message reminder :

I'll fatten this out later, but I think this is now worthy of serious speculation given the wc is less than a month away and the impending realisation that we will not progress from the group stage.

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Post by beshocked Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:31 am

Feckless Rogue England have one of the largest pools of professional players, we have had one of the best U20s players in the world for the last few years. Player ability isn't the issue.

It's selection issues.

Lancaster has foolishly put all his eggs in one basket - during his tenure he has relied heavily on Robshaw and Hartley.

That's fine if Robshaw is playing well and is a strong captain but he's not.

It's fine if Hartley was playing well and didn't miss the game vs Fiji but he's a walking card too.

As for Armitage - he decided not to play in England - that's his problem.

The issue is that Lancaster hasn't picked the best potential prospects.

Lancaster wanted to leave out one of the form hookers in England, Jamie George. Jamie George might well spare Lancaster's blushes in the hooker department despite not being rated by Lancaster. Only Hartley's headbutt allowed George into the squad.

He's left out one of England's actual proper opensides, Matt Ksevic who has been a positive for Gloucester.

Left out - strong 6/8 - Dave Ewers who had a good season for Exeter.

Plus he's left out one of England's best prospects, Maro Itoje. A lock/6 who has a lot of power for a young man - U20 world cup winning captain, LV cup winning captain and now AP final winner. Only England would be foolish enough to leave him out.

kingelderfield

As for picking Diamond - he's a mediocre coach nothing more. Numerous coaches who are better than him.

As for Baxter I think he should be left alone for now - he's doing well but want to see if he can complete the journey from Championship to Champions first with Exeter.

Mallinder - perhaps but I would want him joined by a strong group like Sanderson/Gustard and King.

I mention Sanderson/Gustard because they are a strong double act.

eirebilly as for your criticism of the Farrells.

I agree on Farrell Sr - I think he's a hugely overrated coach who has been riding on over people's coat tails - did the same thing at Saracens where superior coaches allowed him to take some of the credit. It should be noted that Saracens have become more attacking since Farrell Sr left.

As for Farrell Jr - he might be a fiery individual but he offers something that neither Ford or Cipriani do which is his physicality and solid presence.

Farrell Jr is not often bullied by opposition, Ford on the other hand has been blown away by opposition more when his pack aren't working well.

Sexton towered over Ford like a colossus in Ireland. Sexton has struggled to do the same vs Farrell. Farrell can control a game and impose his will on the opposition - not all the time of course but more so than Ford IMO. In the AP final this happened.

As for Cipriani - a few good cameos off the bench isn't really proof that he's got what it takes when the pressure is on.

Still need to see some more consistency at international level from Cipriani.

He's still a nearly man of England.

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Post by dummy_half Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:37 am

Poorfour wrote:

...

Lancaster's current position isn't dissimilar to where Woodward was in 99. They've got similar win/loss ratios. Lancaster's developed a side with a strong defence, usually an effective pack and a better ability to create and finish than we have had in a long time. What's missing is consistency and the ability to find a way to win regardless of what goes wrong. That takes experience, which is the big thing this side doesn't have.

There is a lot that could be better in an ideal world, but in the real world I'd be very surprised if Mallett or Woodward or even Graham Henry could have done much better.

The highlighted bit is key. One other thing that we seem to lack is on-field leadership. Not a criticism of Robshaw only, who at least is usually a fine 'lead by example' captain, but that there seems to be a lack of other players contributing. Seriously, if Robshaw is off the pitch, who would be captain? Look back to 2003 and you could easily give the captain's role to half a dozen others in MJ's absence. Now, the next best leader in the squad appears to be Burgess, and he's only played 4.5 seconds of rugby union in his life...

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Post by stub Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:39 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do we really need that different a team? I really think people are taking this 5 point defeat too hard.

I meant a difference in performance from the team rather than wholesale changes to personnel. We've more or less got the players - it's just that most of them didn't seem to play. No disrespect to the French team intended here who played well and probably made it hard for the English team to play.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:43 am

thomh wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:It's not SL. Clearly the coaching weakness is rowntree. England forwards are always in catch up mode with Rowntree. All the big sides work out ways to get an advantage in the set piece. They always are one step ahead. Rowntree is thick and should be sacked asap.

I think most people would say Rowntree is the star of coaching set-up. Our forwards have had big injury problems but he's usually been able to put together a pack that dominates opposition, albeit with a couple of high profile exceptions such as Cardiff 2013. Gatland obviously saw enough in him in 2009 to make him full forwards coach in 2013, and our forwards destroyed Australia out there.

We've lost the set-piece in the last two weeks. We've won in for the majority of the last four years. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

TBH the set piece is worrying me. Scrum has looked creaky in both games, but worse for me was the lineout in the second game. One not straight aside, it is hard to explain it down to poor throwing as Youngs and George were throwing it where they were meant to, however we were just doing straight up and down lineouts and the French were man-marking us - Lawes especially - and getting in front of the jumper. If the hooker gets it over the French guy, he also overthrows our man.

The only safe ball was to the back - supposedly the hardest throw.

With Launchbury being an unused option at lineout yet again, we saw the importance of tom wood - and missed him.


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Post by LondonTiger Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:44 am

PS to the OP.

You buggered off from these boards while England were winning matches, only to return when they lose a game. Interesting.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:47 am

stub wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Do we really need that different a team? I really think people are taking this 5 point defeat too hard.

I meant a difference in performance from the team rather than wholesale changes to personnel. We've more or less got the players - it's just that most of them didn't seem to play. No disrespect to the French team intended here who played well and probably made it hard for the English team to play.

Yup. True.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:52 am

We started poorly, and looked rusty. Ford made 3 big mistakes in first 5 minutes - however we should not over-react as the point of these games is to remove the cobwebs.

Thought the pack looked a little heavy legged - but if they were still in full on fitness mode that happens.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:53 am

beshocked, didn't think you were such a fan of Kvesic!

Doubt Itoje would be in many teams to be honest, certainly not the big 3 down south, or Ireland.

You may want to check back how farrell fared against Wales a few years back. Hardly controlled the game, it happens to a ten when your pack is well beaten.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:57 am

Thought Ford recovered pretty well from an iffy start but no point arguing with the boy 7.5.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:59 am

He didn't go into hiding which was good. Nailed some pretty good kicks and found a lovely touch in the 1st half.

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Post by beshocked Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:08 am

Well I have said it a few times I would have had Ksevic in. Same with Ewers. Not been saying it as much as Itoje admittedly.

Who knows?

Oh right no 7 & 1/2 so you're going to mention the 2013 game? Plus that's just one game. It's 2015 now buddy.

In that game if Manu hadn't dropped a ball early on, England could have scored a try and built some momentum - small moments.....

I agree Farrell struggled like all the team did that day but didn't help having a FB on the wing and a blindside flanker at 8. He could have helped his team too.

Should a 10 be absolved from all blame then? Not my fault guv - it's all the packs fault....

Don't get me wrong Ford is a talented player but he's human. He makes mistakes. He's no deity like his fan club thinks he is.

You live in cloud cuckoo land where no player ever makes a mistake.

It's about acknowledging mistakes and fixing them.

I don't think Farrell is perfect either - far from it. Should have never played in the AIs, or the 2014 AP or HC final or the match at Munster but that's because was either still unfit,not in form/injured.

Now Farrell is finding some form and will put pressure on Ford.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:15 am

You see I agree with all that beshocked.

'Farrell Jr is not often bullied by opposition, Ford on the other hand has been blown away by opposition more when his pack aren't working well.

Sexton towered over Ford like a colossus in Ireland. Sexton has struggled to do the same vs Farrell. Farrell can control a game and impose his will on the opposition - not all the time of course but more so than Ford IMO. In the AP final this happened.'

That's the bit I find stretching the truth. farrell has been blown away when his packs not at the races, all 10s have. The bit about Sexton you could apply to Ford, Farrell and Wales. It didn't happen in the AP final by the way. Both 10s were good albeit Farrells fiery nature saw him take out a quality back early on with a high tackle which probably should have cost him team more with a yellow.

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Post by beshocked Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:37 am

No 7 & 1/2 you can name one match of Farrell from 2013 - I can name 3 of Ford just this year - vs Ireland,vs France and vs Saracens in the AP final.

When the pack is struggling you have to take the pressure off. Whether that's a decent kick or big tackle or something else.

The 10 is a key position - they have to responsibility when something goes wrong. They can't just take the glory when things are going right.

When your opposite number gets the man of the match you've obviously not done a good enough job IMO.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:42 am

You can't name the Saracens final though beshocked as Ford played well. Farrell goes missing, he had a pretty poor 6-8 months which even you acknowledge. To be fair to both their packs aren't often over run. France, Ireland and Wales are the games which England have been beaten up up front and in no instance was the 10 great. When in your eyes has Saracens or Englands pack been well beaten and Farrell has been excellent?

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Post by BamBam Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:49 am

What about when Sarries have been walloped by Toulon? Or England lost to South Africa with Farrell at the helm? Why didn't he save the day with his oh so superior physicality and fiery nature, surely he can take on the Saffas and Toulon's pack single handed?

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Post by Gooseberry Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:50 am

stub wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Do we really need that different a team? I really think people are taking this 5 point defeat too hard.

I meant a difference in performance from the team rather than wholesale changes to personnel. We've more or less got the players - it's just that most of them didn't seem to play. No disrespect to the French team intended here who played well and probably made it hard for the English team to play.

Quite, it doesnt matter who you pick and what the tactics are if the players just dont turn up with the intensity and ability to execute on the day. I wouldnt agree so much that it was France stopping them form playing (although they were much improved), a lot of Englands problems certainly early on were down to their inability to take the ball forward and giving away endless penalties at the breakdown, and lets not even mention Brown running into his own man. Set pieces were a disgrace.

We have seen previously that this same bunch of players are capable of much better.
Also we have seen that France are well capable of not turning up.

England can beat anyone on their day Whistle


The scrum and lineout have been problematic in both games, and illegal binding aside its hard to undertand why England have overnight become turd an area they are supposed to expend a lot enegry in getting right. Again it cant just be a case of the wrong guys being picked, both sets of forwards have struggled .. or just that the oppsoitiona re suddenly amazing. There must be something fundamental in the way England are coming into these games and as a team.

Hopefuly they will wake up for Ireland and into the world cup. Maybe its because they are battered and still in "pre season" mode from the couple of weeks intense training, but shouldnt that be the same for the opposition?


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Post by LondonTiger Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:52 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrells fiery nature saw him take out a quality back early on with a high tackle which probably should have cost him team more with a yellow.

Should have been at least a yellow - instead he walked away scot free. Ford played better than Farrell that day despite being behind a beaten pack. both good players, both will and have struggled behind a well beaten pack, Ford will offer more in general.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:56 am

Taking out the high tackle incident I'd say Farrell did shade it myself. They would have both been pleased at their individual performance I'd imagine.

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Post by fa0019 Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:00 am

For me Ford better suits England going forward with dominant positions, Farrell is better in keeping games close in even match ups.
When you play Ireland for instance you need a kicker who is reliable and with world class range. You also have to have someone who will front up to the waves of attack coming down your channel.

In all all out brawl Farrell is the better bet. Matches vs. Ireland and SA are these types of games. Against these sides you won't get many chances, you have to have someone who can go toe to toe with Sexton in the place kicking and take kicks beyond the 10metre line.. rather than kick to the corner and 6/7 lose possession.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:02 am

My memory says otherwise 7.5. Very Happy

Looking at the stats Ford shaded the tackling 6-0 (Farrell 5-1), and goalkicking. ford had a TA, Farrell a try (when he should have been off the pitch). Similar running stats.

So all in all fairly similar, for me ford shaded it and did that behind a well beaten pack.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:04 am

I really don't think you've watched much of Ford fa. You sound a bit like the Scots saying Finn Russel was better before the 6Ns.

Bath did have the better 2nd half LT, though I've heard that was because Saracens eased off knowing they'd won!

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Post by beshocked Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:06 am

no 7 & 1/2 Ford was not good enough evidently. Farrell went missing because he wasn't fully fit, he was injured. It was poor player management by Saracens and England.

Racing Metro vs Saracens in Nantes- Racing Metro were beating up the Saracens pack but Farrell helped turn things around - nailed every single kick, some not easy.

Bambam Farrell should have never started in either of those matches. He wasn't fully fit.

Poor selection. Also Farrell was injured/unfit already before the Toulon game - tripping over a wire before kick off didn't seem to help either as he had a grimace on his face.

Not saying he can take on packs singlehandedly - I am saying he can help galvanise his team and pack in a way that Ford can't IMO. I think he helps the pack and the pack help him.



So it's cold hard stats that all that matter? Some things can't be found on a piece of paper - like the importance of certain tackles made,missed, leadership (not something you can measure), morale is another.

Farrell would have been marked much lower if he did get the YC but he didn't. You have to look at what happened, not what could have happened. He rode his luck sure but still...

Some things are unquantifiable.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:09 am

Which racing game?

Ford was good, not sure he could have done much more to be honest.

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Post by BamBam Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:10 am

Laugh So Farrell wasn't fit when England lost to South Africa and Australia before beating New Zealand?

Must have made a miraculous recovery before facing the All Blacks

Or on tour in South Africa? Never fit was he

Laugh

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Post by SecretFly Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:13 am

His fitness was calibrated specifically for the All Blacks, Bam. It was therefore misaligned for the South African and Australian games by a factor of 8.6. Keep up with fitness technology, man!

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Post by fa0019 Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:13 am

anyone who actually believes Ford is even close to Farrell in place kicking is deranged. Farrell is top class both accuracy and range, top 5 in the world class. Ford may look closer in % terms but thats because he simply doesn't attempt the kicks Farrell would. Farrell will attempt those 6/10 shots but Ford simply kicks to the corner.

England lost the Ireland game in the 6N because Ford couldn't match Sexton in place kicking and as England dropped behind they started to chase the game which opened up gaps. Sure he offers more in attack but Ford is no JW at the moment as in no1 regardless of who they face, against some teams Farrell is the better choice.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:16 am

England lost against Ireland because Irelands pack were great and Sexton and Murray were top class in their kicks from hand. Ford was below average from place kicks at the start of his career but is now good, he doesn't have the range of half way, few do. I've not seen Farrell attempt them, Bosch takes them for Sarries. You look at the last 2 games for England at place kicks and Ford was been slightly better.

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Post by BamBam Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:33 am

One thing I noted in the game on Saturday was that Ford went for one from halfway, don't think I've seen him do that before for England.

He was short by 5 metres or so, but maybe that's a sign that he has been kicking those in training?

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Post by fa0019 Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:42 am

BamBam wrote:One thing I noted in the game on Saturday was that Ford went for one from halfway, don't think I've seen him do that before for England.

He was short by 5 metres or so, but maybe that's a sign that he has been kicking those in training?

Short by 5 means you are short by 10 really no? Got to hit that min 5 beyond.

Needs to get in training and build his quads. Looks a bit too much like Jon Webbs pipecleaners at the moment.

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Post by SecretFly Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:44 am

BamBam wrote:One thing I noted in the game on Saturday was that Ford went for one from halfway, don't think I've seen him do that before for England.

He was short by 5 metres or so, but maybe that's a sign that he has been kicking those in training?

Or maybe he knows that's where the pressure is on him and feels the need to.... give them a go to market himself as number one option for any style of game Lancaster chooses.

It's probably too late to become metronomic in that facet of the game before the WC, but it's certain he's been told there'll be some dogfight games where points rather than tries will probably call the result.

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Post by beshocked Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:48 am

Bambam sorry I thought you were referring to a different game. I was talking about the 2014 AIs, you meant 2012.

Oh right the game you are referring to is when Farrell almost dragged England to a win vs SA when coming on for Flood (who had squandered opportunities on the pitch).

Pretty sure that SA won from a flukey try too.

The game when Farrell argued with Robshaw because Farrell wanted to kick to the corner but Robshaw told Farrell to kick a penalty which he did.

Fa0019 it wasn't just place kicking. Ford's restarts were very poor, repeatedly kicking to Zebo who easily caught the kicks. Predictable and ponderous.

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Post by BamBam Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:51 am

Fair points, I agree you need to be able to hit beyond the posts, just struck me as odd that they would suddenly give him a long kick when they haven't before.

Its one of the reasons I like Slade, he definitely can take the long shots at goal, but unless he gets the chance to show it in one of the less pressurised games (Ireland warm up, Fiji) then wouldn't fancy giving him one against Wales or Oz


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Post by englandglory4ever Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:57 am

I think we must question the plan for the lead up to the RWC. Warm up games being played whilst saying players are still playing for their spot in the squad. WTF? This implies that 4 weeks out the coaching team have no idea who is their starting 15. For that reason the starting 15 have had no game time together and it showed in spades last Saturday. This could be a major lack of judgement on SLs part. He needs to stop messing about and get on with it.

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Post by BamBam Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:57 am

beshocked wrote:Bambam sorry I thought you were referring to a different game. I was talking about the 2014 AIs, you meant 2012.

Oh right the game you are referring to is when Farrell almost dragged England to a win vs SA when coming on for Flood (who had squandered opportunities on the pitch).

Pretty sure that SA won from a flukey try too.

The game when Farrell argued with Robshaw because Farrell wanted to kick to the corner but Robshaw told Farrell to kick a penalty which he did.

Fa0019 it wasn't just place kicking. Ford's restarts were very poor, repeatedly kicking to Zebo who easily caught the kicks. Predictable and ponderous.

Oh, so rather than hurry up and get on with the kick, he wasted a minute arguing with his captain, which then cost us the opportunity of another attack? Must be that wonderful fiery nature of his!

Incidentally, Botha cocked up the restart immediately after, otherwise Robshaw would have had his side with a scrum on halfway and a minute left to attack just needing 3 points ...

Oh right, so if Farrell was able to almost drag England to a win against SA single handed when coming on as a sub, he must have torn them a new one single handed when he was starting against them on tour in 2013?

Oh, did we lose 2 Tests and draw the third in the last minute?

2012, 2013, 2014 all years where we've lost to SA, and as you are so fond of mentioning, we really should have beaten them by now, and Farrell has played in all the games

I really don't dislike Farrell, but your constant derision of Ford, Nowell or any other player competing with a Saracen means I feel the need to really pick out faults in the same way you do


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Post by fa0019 Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:11 pm

BamBam wrote:
beshocked wrote:Bambam sorry I thought you were referring to a different game. I was talking about the 2014 AIs, you meant 2012.

Oh right the game you are referring to is when Farrell almost dragged England to a win vs SA when coming on for Flood (who had squandered opportunities on the pitch).

Pretty sure that SA won from a flukey try too.

The game when Farrell argued with Robshaw because Farrell wanted to kick to the corner but Robshaw told Farrell to kick a penalty which he did.

Fa0019 it wasn't just place kicking. Ford's restarts were very poor, repeatedly kicking to Zebo who easily caught the kicks. Predictable and ponderous.

Oh, so rather than hurry up and get on with the kick, he wasted a minute arguing with his captain, which then cost us the opportunity of another attack? Must be that wonderful fiery nature of his!

Incidentally, Botha cocked up the restart immediately after, otherwise Robshaw would have had his side with a scrum on halfway and a minute left to attack just needing 3 points ...

Oh right, so if Farrell was able to almost drag England to a win against SA single handed when coming on as a sub, he must have torn them a new one single handed when he was starting against them on tour in 2013?

Oh, did we lose 2 Tests and draw the third in the last minute?

2012, 2013, 2014 all years where we've lost to SA, and as you are so fond of mentioning, we really should have beaten them by now, and Farrell has played in all the games

I really don't dislike Farrell, but your constant derision of Ford, Nowell or any other player competing with a Saracen means I feel the need to really pick out faults in the same way you do


The 16-15 game last min kick when 4 down wasn't Farrell's fault. It is purely at Robshaw's door. Yes he argued with his captain but anyone would have done as it was a crazy decision. England aren't NZ, they can't counter from their own 22 in last play and expect to get a shot at goal half the time.

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Post by beshocked Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:21 pm

Bambam Robshaw is the captain - he should have been decisive. Should have told Farrell to shut up and get on with the kick then!

Also England weren't thrashed in any of those games.

Nothing against Nowell or Ford - they just aren't deities who can do no wrong.

I want Ford to do well and play well but he's not perfect.

I guess it also depends whether you think Farrell was a better player in 2012 or now.

I generally argue because I challenge the misconception that May has been brilliant at international level - he hasn't. Challenge the misconception that Ford has never struggled. Challenge the misconception that Nowell played well in the loss to France last year.

You have people believing that Ford didn't struggle vs Ireland - I am sorry but that's deluded.

Players have bad games - I accept that but some players never seem to have a bad game in some peoples' eyes.

In contrast I know the flaws of the likes of Goode,Ashton,Farrell and Barritt. I know they are not perfect.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:27 pm

These misconceptions. Where are they from and who's making them?

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Post by fa0019 Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:32 pm

If the aim of rugby was to run from side to side ala U12s rugby then Jonny May would be the best player in the world. Shame it isn't. He has a similar problem to Billy Vunipola.

Its obvious both were superb juniors, May was almost certainly way, way faster than all his peers so when he faced a brick wall he would simply run around them... most are not fast enough to succeed here... May was. Problem is he continues to act in such a manner in the pros.
Good try vs. NZ, superb in fact but the rest of his test career has been pretty average. Look at Ben Smith for instance, ons of the finest readers of the game today. Average wing pace and by all accounts a good but not exceptional junior. Read his teachers never thought he'd even make a pro let alone an AB and the best 3/4 in the game... yet he's used his brain to see space, make tries and take superb lines. Can't remember May ever exploiting space like him or Ashton in his first 2-3 years.

Same with Billy V. Probably was 16st aged 13. Simply boshed people out the way. There is little finesse to his play and if you measured him up vs. Morgan you'd probably see Morgan making more ground because he uses his head to make the yards similar to Deano used to do.

This is why for me Nowell is far better. He's no way as quick but he reads the game very well.

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Post by lostinwales Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:49 pm

I think Nowell has done more than enough to claim his wing berth. I am a fan of May though as he doesn't have and obvious weaknesses and its nice to have someone that quick on the team

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Post by fa0019 Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:56 pm

lostinwales wrote:I think Nowell has done more than enough to claim his wing berth. I am a fan of May though as he doesn't have and obvious weaknesses and its nice to have someone that quick on the team

Has to do more than simply sit on his wing waiting for others to make space for him to finish though. Has to look for work more in the midfield. Look at Bryan Habana as another premier gas man. He has to speed and chaps like Fourie & JDV created huge holes for him to run into and exploit but his game is so much more than pure pace.

In the end, Monye was probably faster than May given he trained with England/GB sprint team for a while as I understand. Marlon Yarde too is probably faster. Pace is great but if you don't have the brains then May is simply another Tom Varndell. His try record for England is dire. 15 caps, all as starter and 4 tries inc. 2 vs. Samoa and 1 vs France B.

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Post by Poorfour Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:59 pm

May looked a different player in the first France game - much more direct and able to straighten the line rather than the dancing-across-the-pitch thing he used to do. Defence also a bit better though still with some points to work on.

Agree with the point about reading the game and working on using the space. Often an under-rated (and under-selected for) characteristic.
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Post by Barney McGrew did it Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:06 pm

The difference in the 2 games was that in the 2nd, May and Lawes swapped positions. Hard to find any space with a lock taking your position.
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Post by lostinwales Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:12 pm

May does do a fair amount of work and doesn't just hang about on his wing. His stats for meters run with the ball (which doesn't include the cross field stuff) are usually pretty good and there is the kick chase thing.

We do have a big problem with first impressions becoming fixed impressions. May had a lot to learn about international rugby and many would argue that he still has, but I believe he is a real asset.

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Post by fa0019 Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:17 pm

Poorfour wrote:May looked a different player in the first France game - much more direct and able to straighten the line rather than the dancing-across-the-pitch thing he used to do. Defence also a bit better though still with some points to work on.

Agree with the point about reading the game and working on using the space. Often an under-rated (and under-selected for) characteristic.

Habana is no way as near quicker as 10 years ago... Bjorn Basson is probably faster now but gets no where near because Habana is so underrated in that department. Went through a bad patch in 08-10 as he slowed down but eventually adapted his game. At his peak the only guy I ever saw best him was the zim/USA winger and Jongi Nowki (who himself probably could have made the olympics).

SA are in a little hole though... Habana and JP have had the berths for 9 years straight. Its ridiculous. No obvious pretenders to their berths.

I imagine May will go the way of Ben Cohen, Ugo Monye... career over aged 27/first major ligament injury. Watson looks the real deal though... he'll be around for 10 years.

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Post by lostinwales Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:24 pm

fa0019 wrote:...
I imagine May will go the way of Ben Cohen, Ugo Monye... career over aged 27/first major ligament injury. Watson looks the real deal though... he'll be around for 10 years.

Too early to say with Watson but I more or less agree about May. I'd suspect he'll go more the way of Strettle, as in get injury slow down and stay an effective and versatile AP level player (at 13 and wing) with a lot less of the spectacular stuff and not much value at international level. But it hasn't happened yet and he is still very very quick Smile

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Post by beshocked Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:11 pm

no 7 & 1/2 most of them are from you.

Fa0019 not sure I would agree on Billy Vunipola.

He did have a very good 6 nations.

http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2015/03/the-beattie-identity/

This article about Johnnie Beattie tells us more about Billy Vunipola and how he measures up about other no 8s.

I should add these stats don't include Billy's strong performance against France in the 6 nations too.

Not sure making Billy slimmer is good for him.


On the subject of May - still need convincing.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:16 pm

Ok beshocked, provide some quotes to that effect then.

Would be good to see them for 'Nothing against Nowell or Ford - they just aren't deities who can do no wrong.'

'May has been brilliant at international level'

'Challenge the misconception that Ford has never struggled. Challenge the misconception that Nowell played well in the loss to France last year.

You have people believing that Ford didn't struggle vs Ireland - I am sorry but that's deluded.'

If your issue is this then it'll be fine when you actually read what people have said.

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Post by beshocked Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:48 pm

no 7 & 1/2 I am not going to trawl through previous posts.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:49 pm

Because it doesn't exist beshocked, at least not for me.

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Post by beshocked Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:54 pm

I've tried to convince you that Nowell played poorly against France with hard video evidence. I doubt I can convince you of anything to be honest.

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