Stuart Lancaster & the England Job

First topic message reminder :

 
I think that this aspect of the fallout from last night's titanic match deserves a thread of its own.

As a neutral, I am probably the person to start it as I have no truck with England's current head coach either way.

Some numbers first. The figures for Lancaster are only correct to the end of the 6N this year, so that's worth bearing in mind:

Geoff Cooke
Tenure: 16 January 1988 – 19 March 1994
Tests: 50
Won: 36
Drawn: 1
Lost: 13
Win Percentage: 72

Jack Rowell
Tenure: 4 June 1994 – 12 July 1997
Tests: 29
Won: 21
Drawn: 0
Lost: 8
Win Percentage: 72

Sir Clive Woodward
Tenure: 15 November 1997 – 2 September 2004
Tests: 83
Won: 59
Drawn: 2
Lost: 22
Win Percentage: 71

Andy Robinson
Tenure: 15 October 2004 – 29 November 2006
Tests: 22
Won: 9
Drawn: 0
Lost: 13
Win Percentage: 41

Brian Ashton
Tenure: 20 December 2006 – 1 June 2008
Tests: 22
Won: 12
Drawn: 0
Lost: 10
Win Percentage: 55

Rob Andrew
Tenure: 1 June 2008 – 30 June 2008
Tests: 2
Won: 0
Drawn: 0
Lost: 2
Win Percentage: 0

Martin Johnson
Tenure: 1 July 2008 – 16 November 2011
Tests: 38
Won: 21
Drawn: 1
Lost: 16
Win Percentage: 55

Stuart Lancaster
Tenure: 8 December 2011 – present
Tests: 42
Won: 26
Drawn: 1
Lost: 15
Win Percentage: 62

SL was in charge of his first game in March 2012.

Many regard England's failure to beat Wales as attributable directly to the head coach's tactical decisions in selection and to the apparent lack of a clear and consistent game plan which England is playing to.

My questions for the group:

1. What results are needed in this Rugby World Cup for Lancaster to keep his job? Would he still have to go if England exit in the quarters?

2. With reference to his peers above, what win ratio is expected from an England coach and is this reasonable?

3. What are the key areas in which Lancaster can be validly criticised?

4. The RFU is the most profitable union in the sport. Apart from perhaps the NZ head coach's job, there is a fair argument that being England's head coach is the most prestigious coaching appointment in rugby union football. But is it in fact something of a poisoned chalice given the overwhelming expectation to constantly be successful?

Nice hair.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice hair.

I suppose that he's also more Australian than me.

At least hes a good looking guy.

My lass likes Kevin Cosner...

Hes about 90!!

George Carlin wrote:Seeing as we're going off topic, can someone tell me what my wife sees in Chris Hemsworth?

He was good in Rush...

ChequeredJersey wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Seeing as we're going off topic, can someone tell me what my wife sees in Chris Hemsworth?

He was good in Rush...

That's what all the girls say.

George Carlin wrote:Seeing as we're going off topic, can someone tell me what my wife sees in Chris Hemsworth?

Hmmmm, is that a trick question, George? Anyway, I personally refuse to answer it on the grounds that it might be seen to incriminate me....

TJ wrote:Confirmation of some of the rumours of an unhappy squad environment "England have confirmed there was a training ground incident involving Mike Catt and Danny Cipriani but insist it was resolved swiftly"
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/oct/07/england-danny-cipriani-mike-catt-bust-up

By that they mean, Mike Catt told Cops he didn't make the final 31, then to go and carry on training as if nothing had happened. When Cipriani is apparently not doing enough in that session Catt singles him out gets on his case and in the argument that follows tells him he'll end his England career.

And resolved quickly seems to mean Cipriani is sent home post haste.

Not the best attitude when you think Catt has attacked Cipriani in the press in the past, and then followed up on that by slating him for not shaking his hand the next time they met!

George Carlin wrote:Seeing as we're going off topic, can someone tell me what my wife sees in Chris Hemsworth?

Probably the same thing as my eldest daughter.

I thought the soundtrack to the recent Avengers film was broken in our local cinema until I realised the strange squeaking coincided with Thor's appearance and was coming from next to me.

Wow that's pretty poor show if that's the case.

What does he expect Cipriani to be jumping for joy.

I think players may be getting above themselves here. I'm all for players having confidence and self-belief but without adherence and respect for the coaching team (even if you disagree with them) then what we are left with is anarchy and chaos and this is starting to spill out now. We had something similar with Adam Jones (of all people) who didn't like it when he was dropped; he then proceeded to throw his toys out of the pram and many of us wanted Gatland to offer him an olive branch (which is not his style but he is consistent) - Compare Adam's response to Mike Phillips (of all people) who after being dropped wished the team well. Ironically Phillips now finds himself in the squad whilst Adam remains on the outside - something I think he'll regret as we would have more than likely needed him and who knows he may have become 1st choice for the RWC with some good performances. There's a lesson here for all players, when your in camp STFU until you retire or write your book as you risk destabalising everything.

George Carlin wrote:Seeing as we're going off topic, can someone tell me what my wife sees in Chris Hemsworth?

I suppose she likes a man with a big hammer.

................

Love ambiguous wording.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Love ambiguous wording.

Just saw that. Biiiiiiiiiig mistake.

Delete
delete
delete

Doc,

As it takes a big hammer to drive a big nail - I just assumed that along with Freddie Mercury you like Fat Bottomed Girls

Lets not forget that the 2007 squad turned things around in part by telling Ashton they didnt want Andy Farrell involved. Mind in that case he was replaced by Catt.

Histroys a funny thing.

LondonTiger wrote:Doc,

As it takes a big hammer to drive a big nail - I just assumed that along with Freddie Mercury you like Fat Bottomed Girls

Well................perhaps not quite in the same way???????
Only my hairdresser knows for sure...........

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Doc,

As it takes a big hammer to drive a big nail - I just assumed that along with Freddie Mercury you like Fat Bottomed Girls

Well................perhaps not quite in the same way???????
Only my hairdresser knows for sure...........

We all know you have a hair stylist.

fa0019 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:The France debate isn't just around protecting the Premiership, it's also about availability for training camps.

I actually think its a good rule. Harsh but good

Half the reason England are struggling to continue their junior form to test level is the failure of the club setup... how English teams a) struggle in Europe and b) how teams are filled with good foreigners who deny them earlier than expected chances to play top level rugby. In Ireland for instance they have no such issues.

However the AUS rule is sensible. Say a player has 50 caps and gets contractual allowances for training caps then sure. Otherwise no. Means players can earn their bread in later years but still get national honours.

They should start putting in foreign player (inc. Wales, Ireland, Scotland) caps into sides. Max 5 per XV for example.

The number of foriegns is a bit of junk argument. Its gobne down in recent years for starters, and even with 50% of the starting spots taken by non EQ players (its less) that still leaves 6 spots for EQ ones...more than anyone but France have in their domestic teams. England also have a massive extended squad system plus their own funded academies (something Lancaster was supposeldy a big champion of growing further) and have more players their coaches work directly with than any other Union. Pure player numbers at the professional level isnt a stick you can beat England with.


Kvesic has been worked on for years by England, hes been aorund the squads and from day 1 of Lancasters regime he was identified as the future answer to balance Englands back row. Hes now been getting regular starts for his premiership team. The England coaches didnt deem him good enough to be selected. Wheres the failure? At the club level or in the England coaching level, bearing in mind he has been under the EPS (Saxons) for most of the last 4 years and previously was an age grade England player.


People (and the media) also seem to have a real mind blank regarding Armitage who this whole debate over picking players based outside the Jeff. He still has an outstanding assualt charge against him in France, not to mention the allegations of drug abuse to add to his previously failed test. He simply isnt selecteable..I think we need to coolectively get over him and remember that when he was based in England he wasnt good enough to nail down a spot.

There's a lot of truth to that Gooseberry. 

I suppose the argument goes that if Kvesic was playing for Toulon he would look pretty bloody good as well.

Gooseberry wrote:
 

People (and the media) also seem to have a real mind blank regarding Armitage who this whole debate over picking players based outside the Jeff. He still has an outstanding assualt charge against him in France, not to mention the allegations of drug abuse to add to his previously failed test. He simply isnt selecteable..I think we need to coolectively get over him and remember that when he was based in England he wasnt good enough to nail down a spot.

I didn't feel right alluding to all that when Armitage name comes up so frequently amongst fans and media. It's good that someone has. You're very right, Gooseberry. The jury very much is out on a number of aspects regarding Armitage. Had Lancaster picked him and embarrassing stuff came out down the line, Lancaster would again get it from the media for choosing such a suspect player.

Its interesting so many people don't rate Kvesic, yet speak to Gloucester fans and they'll tell you that in a poor pack he was outstanding and a leader.

People view players differently I guess.

I suspect Lancaster not picking him was down to him being more of a specialist than the "all rounders" that he chose to work with.

You never know Fraser may actually spend most of the season on the pitch rather than the treatment table. When he gets a run of games he generally looks very good. Granted in a better team than Kvesic.

He has indeed 7.5. Apparently he has had a big op to finally get it sorted and he should be injury free now.

But ill say again lets see who's starting for their club and whos putting in the performances...

Would like to see Fraser string some games together and show some good form but he's been unlucky with injuries. Nice bloke too.