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Burgess has left the building

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Post by munkian Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:43 pm

So, 12 months of being noshed off then spat out by the press and 'slammin' Sam has gone back to NRL.


Who will the England rugby hype machine brand as their next messiah ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:46 pm

Where did they hype him as a messiah or cut him down for that matter?

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Post by munkian Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:50 pm

Seriously ?

Since he signed for Bath hes mostly all that was talked about, he was crucified by some journalists post RWC whilst Barrett bizarrely got off very lightly.

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Post by munkian Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:51 pm

Seriously ?

Since he signed for Bath hes mostly all that was talked about, he was crucified by some journalists post RWC whilst Barrett bizarrely got off very lightly.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:51 pm

Yeah seriously. Where are these stories?

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Post by R!skysports Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:51 pm

I think this is really bad form from him - came over to try to push himself onto the world stage - had a chance, did not go great - huffing back to League


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Post by TightHEAD Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:53 pm

What a waste of space, now Feck off.
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Post by R!skysports Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:55 pm

From the BBC site

"Cross-code convert Burgess, 26, had two years left on a three-year deal."



"Burgess returned to training with his club on Monday and Bath had insisted he would be in the squad for the weekend trip to London Irish.

Instead he will go back to Australia and join brothers George and Tom, who signed three-year contract extensions at the Rabbitohs last week, and Luke, who plays for Manly Warringah Sea Eagles."


From the look of this - I think good riddance - spoilt brat


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Post by munkian Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah seriously. Where are these stories?

You are denying that the English media never big up players then hang them out to dry if they don't live up to ridiculous standards ?

There was so much hype around him that he leapfrogged established players such as Burrell to play in a position hes never played in before.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:58 pm

I'm querying that Burgess was hailed as a messiah and got any real fallout from the WC rather than questions being directed at Lancaster.

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Post by Notch Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:05 pm

Don't know where the obsession with converting league stars into Union stars without having them pay their dues in their new sport comes from. This is no surprise.

Sonny Bill spent two years in Toulon being coached by Tana Umaga before he moved back to New Zealand and started being assessed as a test rugby option. Couldn't have had a better mentor when learning how to be a Union centre. Sam Burgess and his Bath coaches had either not worked out his best position or settled on using him at blindside as far as I can tell...

It was bizarre but predictable that there was all this hype without him actually doing anything to justify it from the media, but what was really strange is that the England coaches seemed to buy into that too. Give him a few years to learn the intricacies of Union and he probably could have been a good player. I think he and the RFU didn't have enough patience to wait and let him learn the game.
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Post by LondonTiger Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:09 pm

munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah seriously. Where are these stories?

You are denying that the English media never big up players then hang them out to dry if they don't live up to ridiculous standards ?

I would argue the BRITISH media do that to lots of players from all the national teams.

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Post by R!skysports Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:09 pm

I hope Bath sue him for everything he has for breaking his contract

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Post by Notch Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:10 pm

Maybe he's realised he's not going to make it as a test player without several seasons putting the hard yards in for Bath and he just thinks that its not worth it. He can be a star now in rugby league, whereas he's just a decent player in Union with a lot of hard work to do to get to an equivalent level to where he is as a league player- so why invest the time.

I might guess that either he thought he could master Union much more quickly or someone filled his head with hot air about coming across and being able to go straight into the top level of the sport. Just doesn't happen very often.
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Post by marty2086 Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:22 pm

Notch wrote:Don't know where the obsession with converting league stars into Union stars without having them pay their dues in their new sport comes from. This is no surprise.

Sonny Bill spent two years in Toulon being coached by Tana Umaga before he moved back to New Zealand and started being assessed as a test rugby option. Couldn't have had a better mentor when learning how to be a Union centre. Sam Burgess and his Bath coaches had either not worked out his best position or settled on using him at blindside as far as I can tell...

It was bizarre but predictable that there was all this hype without him actually doing anything to justify it from the media, but what was really strange is that the England coaches seemed to buy into that too. Give him a few years to learn the intricacies of Union and he probably could have been a good player. I think he and the RFU didn't have enough patience to wait and let him learn the game.

Bath started him as a centre but saw him as a flnaker, at 12 they saw him being able to utilise his ball carrying ability while learning the game. He apparently put a lot of work in with Baths backrowers and learnt fast so they put him in at 6 where he did reasonably well for someone so new to the position and in all he played 2 or 3 games at centre

England saw him as a centre and went with that, Mike Ford said publically it was a mistake on Englands part

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Post by ChequeredJersey Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:38 pm

Would rather he tried another year, 1 year in was always going to be too soon really. Just don't think either he nor his coaches (namely, moving him back from 6 to centre for England) have given him the best chance
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Post by Bathman_in_London Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:46 pm

I can see the 'League stars who failed to make it in Union' articles already.

That is a seriously expensive mistake from Bath, with letting Fearns and Sisi go a lot was riding on Burgess really stepping up to the plate.

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:48 pm

"Ahem, cough, salary cap investigations, cough....." anyone ?

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Post by Bathman_in_London Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:50 pm

Hey, we must be under now!

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Post by munkian Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:51 pm

Fearns on Twitter -  :') :') :') :'):') :') :') :')
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Post by ChequeredJersey Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:21 pm

Bath will be fine. There are plenty of good players in back row available. Mafi from Japan will be free from January. Ditto Leich. Before then, I'm sure S15/18/whatever players would love a quick spell with a club like Bath. He must free up money or even a marquee slot. Maybe Steff Armitage fancies a run at the England 7 shirt? Wink
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Post by HQ matt Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:33 pm

Coward!

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Post by TightHEAD Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:09 pm

He bottled it end of, but wasn't he a marquee player so didn't count towards the salary cap?
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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:44 pm

TightHEAD wrote:He bottled it end of, but wasn't he a marquee player so didn't count towards the salary cap?

Well maybe, could be Louw as he's a top quality seven and renewed his contract amidst interest from France. If he was the marquee does that mean if he leaves now that slot is no longer available to Bath? If so they'll not be amused.

He had a lot of potential as a six and his performances on the flank were competent. He didn't have the nous at the breakdown but he'd tackle and carry over the gain line all day long.

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Post by TightHEAD Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:18 pm

Anyone who watched him play for Bath realised it wasn't going to work straight away, he needed two seasons minimum at Bath to develop without England pushing their noses in, 2015 was never going to work.

I feel so sorry for Burrell as he missed out on the rwc to accommodate Burgess I also feel for SL as it is now clear he didn't really have a say in it, the money men in suits who made this call have to stand down.
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Post by Hood83 Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:20 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone who watched him play for Bath realised it wasn't going to work straight away, he needed two seasons minimum at Bath to develop without England pushing their noses in, 2015 was never going to work.

I feel so sorry for Burrell as he missed out on the rwc to accommodate Burgess I also feel for SL as it is now clear he didn't really have a say in it, the money men in suits who made this call have to stand down.

If he didn't have a say in it that makes him pretty gutless. Which given the changes he made mid-tournament seems plausible to me.

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:36 pm

I actually think he was treated very badly. It was always the intention to try to get him into the England squad but in my opinion the gun was jumped by a good 18 months. There was a difference of opinion on what his best position should be and as a result there was a monumental balls up made by the RFU. They rushed him.

I feel sorry for the more established England players who missed out on an RWC place in their own country (something they'll never have the opportunity to do again) simply because the RFU spent a truck full of cash on getting a great RL player into the squad who clearly wasn't ready. I also feel sorry for Burgess himself as he probably hadn't expected to be in such a position. Poor guy was probably so confused he had no idea what day of the week it was. I always said that Lancaster's hand was forced in this case - I don't believe he had any intention of taking Burgess to the RWC. I think he had a centre line-up of Burrell, Joseph, Barritt & Slade in his mind. Then along came the RFU and said you HAVE to put Burgess in - because he's cost us more than your salary for the next few years.

I don't think Burgess himself did anything particularly wrong in the RWC - he was picked to do a job in defence in the centre for the Wales match and did it relatively well. It was only after the back line was rejigged with Ford at 10 & Farrell at 12 that things went pear-shaped. Yet somehow it was Sam who copped all the flak.

I hope that when he gets back to League he is super-successful and has a fine career.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:40 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone who watched him play for Bath realised it wasn't going to work straight away, he needed two seasons minimum at Bath to develop without England pushing their noses in, 2015 was never going to work.

I feel so sorry for Burrell as he missed out on the rwc to accommodate Burgess I also feel for SL as it is now clear he didn't really have a say in it, the money men in suits who made this call have to stand down.

The RFU encouraged Burgess to make the move over but they didn't provide any cash to help the deal as that would have shat all over the salary cap. Lancaster was keen to get him over and they were keen to put big bodies in the centre irrespective of form.

With rumours Catt walked out of the last selection meeting and that Burrell was told he was in the squad the day before the squad announcement the whole RWC campaign sounds like a farce.

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Post by Eejit Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:47 pm

He'd have done fine if he stuck with it I'm sure, but best of luck to the lad nonetheless.

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Post by madmaccas Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:11 am

OK first of all, all this talk about him leaving because he was somehow mistreated is bull.

He got pretty much straight into the Bath team at the expense of better more established player, got into the England World Cup squad at the expense of better more established players, got to play ahead of better more established players and now he rewards that confidence placed in him by quitting.

If mistreating someone is giving them that then Vern Cotter can mistreat me anytime (oh eh).

It's a bl00dy insult to all the people, from Ford and Lancaster, to the fans and pundits who put their faith in him. It's an insult to guys like Burrell and Slade who missed out because of him and it's an insult to us the fans who wanted him to do well.

Everyone talks about the media hanging him out to dry, but I haven't read anything of the sort. Show me 5 articles that blame him and I'll retract that.

So what we have a prima donna who got bored despite being given everything he could of asked for (including a ridiculous salary) and yet broke his contract like a dishonorable little toerag without a thought for the damage he has done to the integrity of the sport.

S0d him.

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Post by Shifty Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:54 am

Poor guy never had a chance. How the hell can you totally learn a new sport, then get shunted between flanker and center, and be expected to be a world beater inside a year?

I thought Wales screwed up Iestyn Harris with too much expectation in the beginning, but Burgess never had any chance to be fair.
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Post by Hood83 Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:29 am

madmaccas wrote:OK first of all, all this talk about him leaving because he was somehow mistreated is bull.

He got pretty much straight into the Bath team at the expense of better more established player, got into the England World Cup squad at the expense of better more established players, got to play ahead of better more established players and now he rewards that confidence placed in him by quitting.

If mistreating someone is giving them that then Vern Cotter can mistreat me anytime (oh eh).

It's a bl00dy insult to all the people, from Ford and Lancaster, to the fans and pundits who put their faith in him. It's an insult to guys like Burrell and Slade who missed out because of him and it's an insult to us the fans who wanted him to do well.

Everyone talks about the media hanging him out to dry, but I haven't read anything of the sort. Show me 5 articles that blame him and I'll retract that.

So what we have a prima donna who got bored despite being given everything he could of asked for (including a ridiculous salary) and yet broke his contract like a dishonorable little toerag without a thought for the damage he has done to the integrity of the sport.

S0d him.

I think 'prima donna' is unfair. He may have been perfectly happy to have continued learning the ropes before being included with Bath and England. It's fair to question his ability to stick it out, as everything I heard about him made me think he'd be more committed. But it was still idiotic and destructive for SL to pick him as a centre. Perhaps Sam doesn't come out smelling of roses, but nor does Lancaster. He really is clueless.

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Post by TightHEAD Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:02 am

Personally I think he should have stuck around and helped Bath out and honored his contract for the remainder of the season and if selected for the 6 nations have another crack at it, as I didn't really think he let himself down in the games he played, it was just a mess how he was handled by England as at Bath he was making very good progress as a No6.
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Post by EWT Spoons Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:15 am

Just playing devils advocate and sorry if this has already been covered, but do we know it was all his choice to leave Bath?

I mean I'm sure it was mostly his call, but it's possible Bath's people and him had a discussion about his long term future at the club and decided that maybe he wasn't going to be as suited to Union as had been hoped. From there they might have reached a mutual agreement that his contract could be terminated and he could return to a league side.

I'm just putting it out there as a possibility.

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Post by munkian Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:17 am

Well, as Bath kept banging on about him being committed to the club and him definitely playing on Saturday it seems unlikely...
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Post by EWT Spoons Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:19 am

fair

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Post by johnrgby Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:33 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:I can see the 'League stars who failed to make it in Union' articles already.

That is a seriously expensive mistake from Bath, with letting Fearns and Sisi go a lot was riding on Burgess really stepping up to the plate.

Well with the exception of Jason Robinson there is not one who has made it
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Post by TightHEAD Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:37 am

johnrgby wrote:
Bathman_in_London wrote:I can see the 'League stars who failed to make it in Union' articles already.

That is a seriously expensive mistake from Bath, with letting Fearns and Sisi go a lot was riding on Burgess really stepping up to the plate.

Well with the exception of Jason Robinson there is not one who has made it

Ashton has done OK.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:38 am

Depends if you're talking about English league players going on to be greats in union. There's a fair few who have been good.

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Post by johnrgby Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:48 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends if you're talking about English league players going on to be greats in union. There's a fair few who have been good.

IMHO a few is probably more like it, but they nearly all came with the same hype as Burgess
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Post by Guest Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:40 am

EWT Spoons wrote:Just playing devils advocate and sorry if this has already been covered, but do we know it was all his choice to leave Bath?

I mean I'm sure it was mostly his call, but it's possible Bath's people and him had a discussion about his long term future at the club and decided that maybe he wasn't going to be as suited to Union as had been hoped.  From there they might have reached a mutual agreement that his contract could be terminated and he could return to a league side.

I'm just putting it out there as a possibility.

I thought this at first. The 800k they got paid by Rabbitohs + his 500k salary is enough money freed up to sign a seriously world class back-rower.

However, he played in the opening game of the season which means his full salary counts in the cap (or he has taken up a marquee spot) making his cameo off the bench ridiculously expensive. He was also listed in their ERCC squad only a couple of days before all this and I think they can only make 1 non-prop change during the group stages.


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Post by Heaf Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:11 am

Hard to feel sorry for Bath though isn't it ....

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Post by munkian Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:25 am

Heaf wrote:Hard to feel sorry for Bath though isn't it ....

Yupp Very Happy
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Post by R!skysports Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:51 am

madmaccas wrote:OK first of all, all this talk about him leaving because he was somehow mistreated is bull.

He got pretty much straight into the Bath team at the expense of better more established player, got into the England World Cup squad at the expense of better more established players, got to play ahead of better more established players and now he rewards that confidence placed in him by quitting.

If mistreating someone is giving them that then Vern Cotter can mistreat me anytime (oh eh).

It's a bl00dy insult to all the people, from Ford and Lancaster, to the fans and pundits who put their faith in him. It's an insult to guys like Burrell and Slade who missed out because of him and it's an insult to us the fans who wanted him to do well.

Everyone talks about the media hanging him out to dry, but I haven't read anything of the sort. Show me 5 articles that blame him and I'll retract that.

So what we have a prima donna who got bored despite being given everything he could of asked for (including a ridiculous salary) and yet broke his contract like a dishonorable little toerag without a thought for the damage he has done to the integrity of the sport.

S0d him.

This plus 100

He come across as a total spoilt brat and has sh*t all over the people that gave him a chance

Boo f*ing hoo - you had some poor games - boo hoo you were given a chance no-one else could possible hope for - boo hoo you broke a contract - boo hoo - I hope you are sued - boo hoo - i hate people that think they are better than others

Boo hoo - i almost believe you away planned to move back to your own club, in your one country with your brothers - but just wanted to raise your personal profile - as an egomanatical rat bag


I have no sympathy and think the sport is better off without him


And now for a deep breath
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Post by madmaccas Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:09 pm


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Post by offload Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:43 am

madmaccas wrote:OK first of all, all this talk about him leaving because he was somehow mistreated is bull.

He got pretty much straight into the Bath team at the expense of better more established player, got into the England World Cup squad at the expense of better more established players, got to play ahead of better more established players and now he rewards that confidence placed in him by quitting.

If mistreating someone is giving them that then Vern Cotter can mistreat me anytime (oh eh).

It's a bl00dy insult to all the people, from Ford and Lancaster, to the fans and pundits who put their faith in him. It's an insult to guys like Burrell and Slade who missed out because of him and it's an insult to us the fans who wanted him to do well.

Everyone talks about the media hanging him out to dry, but I haven't read anything of the sort. Show me 5 articles that blame him and I'll retract that.

So what we have a prima donna who got bored despite being given everything he could of asked for (including a ridiculous salary) and yet broke his contract like a dishonorable little toerag without a thought for the damage he has done to the integrity of the sport.

S0d him.

clap
People made poor judgements about him, notably SL, but he had everything handed on a plate and then quit. Perhaps doesn't possess quite the integrity everyone thought?
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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:07 am

Surely the point is that he shouldn't have had everything handed on a plate to him? He is a professional rugby player, of course he is going to push for those opportunities and take them. The fact that he got those opportunities without having to try too hard or prove very much puts the blame very much on the England management team and selectors. They should hang their heads in shame, this is a complete embarrassment.

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Post by offload Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:16 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Surely the point is that he shouldn't have had everything handed on a plate to him? He is a professional rugby player, of course he is going to push for those opportunities and take them. The fact that he got those opportunities without having to try too hard or prove very much puts the blame very much on the England management team and selectors. They should hang their heads in shame, this is a complete embarrassment.

I agree Rory, but it's his decision to walk away now rather than knuckle down, work hard and fulfill his obligations. As a Bath fan - I won't miss him.
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Post by johnrgby Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:43 am

madmaccas wrote:

Absolutely briliant
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Post by HQ matt Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:49 am

I dont think he performed badly at all.

I think if there is any doubt whether his best position is in the forwards or the backs, then he was probably not ready for an international call up. Having said that I dont necessarily disagree with him being selected for the world cup squad, he was there as an impact player and it could have worked. England being knocked out early had nothing to do with burgess.

Slightly harsh on burrell but for me it was up to burrell to perform and force his own selection.

Burgess was not mistreated, he was given the opportunity but probably needed more time to have the impact we hoped for. I dont blame the england management, it was a bit of a gamble, that didnt pay off but still one worth taking in my opinion.

Quitting at this stage looks weak to me. He should consider this endeavour a failure in his career.

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