Aviva Premiership - Round 7

by **LondonTiger** Wed 23 Dec 2015, 11:06 am

First topic message reminder :

Table

Team	--P--	--W--	--D--	--BP--	Points
Saracens	6	6	0	3	27
Exeter	6	5	0	4	24
Leicester	6	5	0	1	21
Harlequins	6	4	0	4	20
Northampton	6	3	0	4	16
Wasps	6	3	0	2	14
Gloucester	6	3	0	1	13
Sale Sharks	6	2	1	3	13
Bath	6	2	0	3	11
Worcester	6	2	0	2	10
Newcastle	6	0	1	0	2
London Irish	6	0	0	0	0

Fixtures

SATURDAY 26TH DECEMBER 2015
14:30 London Irish v Northampton
15:00 Exeter v Sale
15:00 Leicester v Newcastle

SUNDAY 27TH DECEMBER 2015
14:00 Wasps v Saracens
14:30 Bath v Worcester
16:30 Harlequins v Gloucester

by ChequeredJersey Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:22 pm

Feels like a loss

by nathan Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:23 pm

That game is exactly the type of game we need for these big games at twickers. Hopefully it's converted a few fans to rugby

by ChequeredJersey Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:23 pm

stub wrote:39 each seems a fair result to me! 3 points each isn't a bad haul for either side.

It is when you give up 2 intercept tries

by sad_gimp Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:25 pm

Yeah basically threw that away by forcing the game, Gloucester not really looking threatening apart from the intercepts.

Still, as far as Big Games go, can't complain for entertainment.

Some England players putting their hand up, Kvesic, Care in particular were excellent.

by stub Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:26 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Feels like a loss

I can understand that from a Quins point of view CJ - Glaws certainly lived off scraps for portions of the match.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:27 pm

Draw is probably a fair result. Great game though the defence coaches might have a few words for the players on Monday morning.

by HongKongCherry Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:36 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Feels like a loss

Likewise. To be 10 points up and draw and lose Afoa, May and Trinder to injury leaves a sour note. Nevertheless, a draw is a fair result and I'd have taken that at the start of the day given I thought we'd be thumped.

by ChequeredJersey Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:37 pm

Not good enough, basically. Need to crush Worcester mercilessly to make up for that

by ChequeredJersey Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:48 pm

At least the scrum went well, and my worries of the lineout failing embarrassingly on either side's 5m line at the end were unfounded

by stub Sun 27 Dec 2015, 6:55 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Not good enough, basically. Need to crush Worcester mercilessly to make up for that

I'm pretty sure Wuss will do their best to make it a miserable outing for Quins but there's no doubt that Quins are strong favourites to win well.

by sad_gimp Sun 27 Dec 2015, 7:13 pm

Al in all we are looking pretty good as long as we can sort the brainfarts and play a bit smarter. I don't think it was quite as bad as some people are making out.

by yappysnap Sun 27 Dec 2015, 7:26 pm

Gutted

Too many silly mistakes, too much in our own 22, too many gifted points.

Well played Gloucester you were merciless on the turnover/intercept

by yappysnap Sun 27 Dec 2015, 7:30 pm

Quins are never going to compete in finals rugby if we don't sort our game management and discipline out. 2 tries from intercepts and 2 from silly turn overs is just unacceptable

by yappysnap Sun 27 Dec 2015, 8:27 pm

Also I've always been sceptical of the hype around him but Kvesic was the most influential player in the pitch today. His turnovers caused Quins no end of trouble and lead to tries or penalties.

Yes he doesn't get involved in all aspects of play like other flankers do, but I'd Eddie can balance the backrow to accommodate him then on that performance he could be exceptional.

by HongKongCherry Sun 27 Dec 2015, 8:44 pm

Yappy, I had a similar view about Clifford, but was well and truly proved wrong today. I thought he was excellent, he isn't a 7, but he does appear to have the attributes to be a very good 6. On that showing he could form an excellent English unit with Kvesic and Hughes in the summer.

by yappysnap Sun 27 Dec 2015, 8:54 pm

Thank you HKC. Still not sure about Clifford yet, he is a talent but is he big enough for Int rugby? Maybe in a season or so but at the moment I think he'd unbalance an England backrow.

by king_carlos Sun 27 Dec 2015, 8:54 pm

yappysnap wrote:Also I've always been sceptical of the hype around him but Kvesic was the most influential player in the pitch today. His turnovers caused Quins no end of trouble and lead to tries or penalties.

Yes he doesn't get involved in all aspects of play like other flankers do, but I'd Eddie can balance the backrow to accommodate him then on that performance he could be exceptional.

His tackle rate is always high as well as his constant work at and around the breakdown which is improving rapidly these days.

He no longer shows up carrying as much as he used to which is a shame. With Kvesic offering a breakdown presence at 7 I'd hope that Robshaw could get back to working as a link man more with that bit of pressure off his shoulders which could work well as a pairing.

With a second row pairing who offer strong carrying I think that 6.Robshaw 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola could function very well.

by yappysnap Sun 27 Dec 2015, 9:09 pm

Vunipola was really good today, in a turgid game he was a great carrier. Amazed he didn't get MoM.

by king_carlos Sun 27 Dec 2015, 9:25 pm

I thought Itoje played well but it felt like a very generous MoM award for him. Agreed that Billy would have been a better bet. I thought Kruis and George had good games as well.

Duncan Taylor would have been my choice as MoM though. He was involved in both the tries which came within minutes of one another to kill the game. His line for the first especially was excellent. Plus he did a really good job of keeping those Wasps outside backs quiet, although he did have significant help from Gopperth there...

by Geordie Sun 27 Dec 2015, 9:40 pm

yappysnap wrote:Vunipola was really good today, in a turgid game he was a great carrier. Amazed he didn't get MoM.

I think Billy V is class Yappy. I cant believe hes already been dropped ( for England ) by so many for the mercenary from Wasps.

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 28 Dec 2015, 7:12 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Vunipola was really good today, in a turgid game he was a great carrier. Amazed he didn't get MoM.

I think Billy V is class Yappy. I cant believe hes already been dropped ( for England ) by so many for the mercenary from Wasps.

Nathan was a big loss today & it's a shame even the neutrals were denied a comparison between the 2. However, for consistency & outstanding displays over the last couple of seasons there is only one winner for not just the Wasps fans.

Great to have both of course.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 28 Dec 2015, 9:11 am

Hughes is awesome ball in hand, but sorry Trev I feel that Billy is a better all round Number 8.

by nathan Mon 28 Dec 2015, 9:22 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Vunipola was really good today, in a turgid game he was a great carrier. Amazed he didn't get MoM.

I think Billy V is class Yappy. I cant believe hes already been dropped ( for England ) by so many for the mercenary from Wasps.

Nathan was a big loss today & it's a shame even the neutrals were denied a comparison between the 2. However, for consistency & outstanding displays over the last couple of seasons there is only one winner for not just the Wasps fans.

Great to have both of course.

i usually am a big loss, nothing much else to say really Wink

by yappysnap Mon 28 Dec 2015, 9:36 am

Nick Easter's still obviously the best 8 in the league, but I think we do need to give the youngsters a go now Wink

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 28 Dec 2015, 9:37 am

Hughes is a fantastic player, very different to anything we already have. I'd have him as comfortably the best 8 in the AP, it would be great if we could squeeze but him and Billy into the same backrow.

by yappysnap Mon 28 Dec 2015, 10:01 am

The good thing about Vunipola and Hughes is that they're quite different 8's, so unlike the Vunipola/Morgan combo it isn't such a like for like replacement off the bench (if that happens).

by EnglishReign Mon 28 Dec 2015, 11:20 am

It feels like a loss for us Glaws fans, too. I don't recall having fewer points than Quins for very long during the whole match!

by yappysnap Mon 28 Dec 2015, 11:49 am

True but you'll appreciate that we're kicking ourselves because a lot of your points came directly from intercepts (14 pts) and playing in our own 5m line (6 pts). Baffling at times but made for a glorious exhibition of rugby at it's best, worst and maddest.

On a side note Dai Young isn't happy with Sarries...

Dai Young has criticised Saracens' tactics following his Wasps side's 26-16 defeat to Sarries on Sunday.

The match looked evenly balanced heading into the final quarter at the Ricoh, only for quickfire tries from Duncan Taylor and Owen Farrell to all but seal the result in the visitors' favour. Farrell also kicked 16 points to see Mark McCall's men maintain their unbeaten start to the season in both England and Europe. However, their exploits have divided neutrals, with their preference for grinding opponents down rather than blowing them away, leaving plenty around the game frustrated. After Sunday's match, Young said it was hard to argue against Sarries' results this season, although he was scathing about what he perceives as their less than entertaining style.

"I'm frustrated because that four minute spell took the game away from us," said Young. "It was nip and tuck until then and it was going to be a three-point game. I was disappointed to concede the first try from a set piece and the second was a fortuitous bounce of the ball so we let the game get away from us.

"You have to give them credit but it's a boring way to play. We want to be more expansive than that but their kicking game is extremely accurate with an aggressive chase. It's very difficult to play against."

Ironic as he decided to change tactics for this game and try to copy them, kicking everything (usually poorly), rather then play like they had all season and power up the middle before spreading wide from anywhere on the pitch.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 28 Dec 2015, 1:29 pm

Hughes was the best player at te breakdown in the premiership last season, btw

by **LondonTiger** Mon 28 Dec 2015, 3:39 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Hughes was the best player at te breakdown in the premiership last season, btw

In what way? Did not think he got most turnovers, but he would certainly have been one of the most penalised at the breakdown.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 28 Dec 2015, 3:41 pm

Dai Young should quit moaning about other teams, and concentrate on what he can do. Saracens won without getting out of second gear - so a lot of work for the Wasps coaches.

by yappysnap Mon 28 Dec 2015, 4:16 pm

Yep and as I said. Doubley silly to moan in a game where they'd tried to out-Sarries Sarries and got beaten.

by yappysnap Mon 28 Dec 2015, 4:18 pm

As a Quins fan, I'm pretty terrified of our game against Saracens.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 28 Dec 2015, 4:41 pm

yappysnap wrote:As a Quins fan, I'm pretty terrified of our game against Saracens.

We have them next, will likely rest players again and will get stuffed.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 28 Dec 2015, 4:50 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Hughes was the best player at te breakdown in the premiership last season, btw

In what way? Did not think he got most turnovers, but he would certainly have been one of the most penalised at the breakdown.

Hughes made the most turnovers in the AP(pilfers) last season at 21.

He also beat 68 defenders(only behind Sinoti), 36 offloads and 19 clean breaks. For such a destructive carrier, he is outstanding at the breakdown.

by yappysnap Mon 28 Dec 2015, 6:19 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:As a Quins fan, I'm pretty terrified of our game against Saracens.

We have them next, will likely rest players again and will get stuffed.

I do find it odd that Cockerill almost admits defeat before hand and always sends a weakened team to play Saracens. You're probably one of the only teams I'd bet on to beat them when in form too.

We'll probably play our strongest side, gift them early points, panic, try to run from our try line get turned over and then just repeat that. Can. Not. Wait. Shocked

by king_carlos Mon 28 Dec 2015, 6:48 pm

I'd be surprised if Tigers rested as many first teamers as we have recently for trips to Sarries.

With Saints at home in 2 weeks Cockers wont want guys who were rested this week half cooked. Treviso at home is our next game in Europe as well so that would provide a chance to rest players if needed.

Most importantly we need to start accumulating bonus points. It's been a pleasing start to the season but 1 BP from 7 AP games when we had chances pick up more is frustrating and could be costly. Failure to close out a 4th try at home to Falcons demonstrated this.

Matt Smith might be rested even it fit with Bai starting and De Villiers on the bench. Other than this I'd expect our first choice front row to come back in along with Fitzgerald, Kitchener and O'Connor. New star Veainu may be rested however which would take a lot from our attack.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 28 Dec 2015, 6:58 pm

Hughes definitely made te most turnovers last season

by **LondonTiger** Mon 28 Dec 2015, 7:16 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Hughes definitely made te most turnovers last season

For some reason could have sworn it was Salvi again.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 28 Dec 2015, 7:22 pm

To be fair, my statement was still hyperbolic- Hughes led the most turnovers won but I wouldn't honestly call him the best breakdown player in the premiership, but he is underrated there

by DaveM Mon 28 Dec 2015, 9:38 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Devoto frustrates me. Great one week anonymous the next. Has the skills and physical attributes but can't hold a starting berth at Bath. Mills is doing alright at Wuss though I can't see him getting a call up this season unless he starts setting the world on fire. Be interesting to see that midfield battle progress but I guess it's not on TV.

So there are rumours Devoto is off to Exeter. That would be an interesting move, and suggest Slade will continue playing 10 and 13 for Chiefs rather than 12.

I think he's being wasted at Bath as Mike Ford seems to be struggling with his 10/12 options (another example of how it's better for a father not to manage his son).

by formerly known as Sam Tue 29 Dec 2015, 9:54 am

Devoto will be a centre at Chiefs. Doubt he'll play 10
, being able to play both the creative and the direct role in the Chiefs midfield will be a benefit.

Bit harsh to drop George Ford when he was the best 10 I'm the league last season. He's struggling this year because his pack is going backwards. Burgess leaving and being replaced by Denton hasn't helped and neither has the plethora of injuries to the right five. Bath a struggling because they've built a skilful midfield but can't get them quick ball.

by DaveM Tue 29 Dec 2015, 7:31 pm

Yes, I meant that Ford and Priestland keep ending up playing 12 as Mike Ford doesn't seem to want to withdraw either of them during a game. Devoto can play 10 (and FB), but it clearly isn't his best position.

Part of being a top class 10 is being able to cope with a pack that is being outplayed.

by yappysnap Tue 29 Dec 2015, 8:27 pm

Part of being a quality player and a character building part of being s pro is being dropped. How a player comes back from that is very informative IMO

There's nothing to say Ford wouldn't do better off the bench a few times

by DaveM Tue 29 Dec 2015, 9:45 pm

yappysnap wrote:Part of being a quality player and a character building part of being s pro is being dropped. How a player comes back from that is very informative IMO

There's nothing to say Ford wouldn't do better off the bench a few times

I agree. I think it is difficult for Mike Ford (as it would be for any father) to manage his son in a dis-passionate manner.

He was on the bench in the last game btw, and came on at 12 as far as I can tell, replacing Devoto who was playing well.

by Bathman_in_London Tue 29 Dec 2015, 10:21 pm

DaveM wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Part of being a quality player and a character building part of being s pro is being dropped. How a player comes back from that is very informative IMO

There's nothing to say Ford wouldn't do better off the bench a few times

I agree. I think it is difficult for Mike Ford (as it would be for any father) to manage his son in a dis-passionate manner.

He was on the bench in the last game btw, and came on at 12 as far as I can tell, replacing Devoto who was playing well.

Agree with that, it's hard to see how any father could be 100% objective about their own son.
Certainly the Bath rotation system needs improving, Ford should have stayed on the bench or come on at 10. Devoto was mucked around with Burgess last season and has been behind Eastmond so I can see why he might want to move to get more game time. That said I would start him in every game but what do I know.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 31 Dec 2015, 3:41 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:Agree with that, it's hard to see how any father could be 100% objective about their own son

It can still work. Nigel Clough did well at Forest under his dad. No-one had a problem at West Ham when Frank Lampard was on the coaching team and junior was a player.

by HongKongCherry Thu 31 Dec 2015, 6:00 pm

It proved a costly game for Glaws. Afoa and Trinder will be out for 6 weeks and May is to have surgery with no return date set but clearly he is very unlikely to feature in the 6N.

by king_carlos Thu 31 Dec 2015, 6:13 pm

Heartbreaking for Trinder. It was pretty horrible to see look on his face as he hobbled in for his second try clearly in a lot of pain and knowing it was bad. It was also tough seeing his team mates subdued celebrations as they tapped him on the shoulder almost consoling him whist the physio tended to his hamstring.

The guy really has had no luck.

by Hood83 Fri 01 Jan 2016, 12:15 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Bathman_in_London wrote:Agree with that, it's hard to see how any father could be 100% objective about their own son
It can still work. Nigel Clough did well at Forest under his dad. No-one had a problem at West Ham when Frank Lampard was on the coaching team and junior was a player.

Quite a lot of people did have a problem with Frank Lampard playing. At the time they had a good crop of youngsters coming through, as they often do, and Lampard was seen as far less promising and not there on merit. He was however far more hard working, one of the reasons he made the most of his talent and many others failed to come through. But I believe one of the reasons he left was the rubbish he had to put up with as the boss' nephew.

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