Ulster 2015/2016 Part 2

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Continue your discussion of all things Ulster here.

Just looking at the end of this season and the next two seasons- what does everyone think we should realistically expect Ulster to achieve in that time frame?

Agree Geoff but as well as McCloskey, Nick Williams is key to the way Ulster play sp Coetzee will have big boots to fill next year.

Without them, as you say, everything is lateral and the opposition defence can just push out and we just drift to the touchline.

When Stuart and Nick are there they not only break the gainline, they are able to tie in 2 - 3 defenders then that creates the space for the ball round the back and shifting the play wide.

Coincidence or not Ireland are having the exact same issue.

Notch wrote:Just looking at the end of this season and the next two seasons- what does everyone think we should realistically expect Ulster to achieve in that time frame?

I think winning the pro12 is achievable - even this season.

Winning Europe probably isn't in the current climate but consistently reaching the KO stages is and I think reaching a SF should be a target for next year. If we are getting to that stage we can start thinking about winning the thing.

Rodders ignoring Nick Williams as not here next year.

He has done well but in all honesty is not in Coetzee league - which is good news.
Coetzee will be the best backrow forward ever to play for Ulster in the professional era, with the exception of Ferris.

It is the tying in of defenders that is exactly what I am referring to.
If you big carriers make hard yards  then, what you might call, the secondary carries,Best, AOC, McCall, de Merwe, can pick and go and also make hard yards due to the gaps created.

To reach the SF of the European Champions Cup we are going to need a lot of injury luck due to our dependency on the four players I mentioned and no adequate cover at half back.
Winning the thing is beyond us.
As I mentioned in my comparison with Wasps - if I have to pick the best 5 backrowers from the two teams next year only one would be an Ulster player (Coetzee) (assuming Hendo in the 2nd row)
That is what we are up against and they are far from the best.
Our insufficient SID will cripple us somewhere in the season.

geoff999rugby wrote:Rodders ignoring Nick Williams as not here next year.

He has done well but in all honesty is not in Coetzee league - which is good news.
Coetzee will be the best backrow forward ever to play for Ulster in the professional era, with the exception of Ferris.

It is the tying in of defenders that is exactly what I am referring to.
If you big carriers make hard yards  then, what you might call, the secondary carries,Best, AOC, McCall, de Merwe, can pick and go and also make hard yards due to the gaps created.

To reach the SF of the European Champions Cup we are going to need a lot of injury luck due to our dependency on the four players I mentioned and no adequate cover at half back.
Winning the thing is beyond us.
As I mentioned in my comparison with Wasps - if I have to pick the best 5 backrowers from the two teams next year only one would be an Ulster player (Coetzee) (assuming Hendo in the 2nd row)
That is what we are up against and they are far from the best.
Our insufficient SID will cripple us somewhere in the season.

There have been a couple of whispers about it being Conan coming North. That would help as well - a great young ball carrier. Would love to see a Hendo/Coetzee/Henry back-row. If in fact we're not getting another IQ back-row, would we be allowed to play Hendo at six?

Not in virtually all Pro12 games as far as I understand it - Ireland are in crises mode in the 2nd row next year

Toner, Henderson, Ryan and then it Dillane, AOC and Foley - that is a very bare cupboard. Henderson in the 2nd row is, arguably, Irelands Most Important player.

Given past history I believe it when I see it with respect to an established Leinster player coming north.

If I was Schmidt I'd offer Fitzgerald of Leicester a place on the summer tour

geoff999rugby wrote:Not in virtually all Pro12 games as far as I understand it - Ireland are in crises mode in the 2nd row next year

Toner, Henderson, Ryan and then it Dillane, AOC and Foley - that is a very bare cupboard. Henderson in the 2nd row is, arguably, Irelands Most Important player.

Given past history I believe it when I see it with respect to an established Leinster player coming north.

If I was Schmidt I'd offer Fitzgerald of Leicester a place on the summer tour

Still can't believe none of the provinces signed him. But maybe we tried, who knows.

clivemcl wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Not in virtually all Pro12 games as far as I understand it - Ireland are in crises mode in the 2nd row next year

Toner, Henderson, Ryan and then it Dillane, AOC and Foley - that is a very bare cupboard. Henderson in the 2nd row is, arguably, Irelands Most Important player.

Given past history I believe it when I see it with respect to an established Leinster player coming north.

If I was Schmidt I'd offer Fitzgerald of Leicester a place on the summer tour

Still can't believe none of the provinces signed him. But maybe we tried, who knows.

Isn't Brendan O'Connor IQ too?

Would have been a handy player to have in our back row

Saw him in Hairy Queens vs Leicester game - just gave away penalties all day. Is he typically that bad?

O'Connor is both Irish and English qualified.
The assessment of O'Connor is he is raw but with a lot of potential.
I'd agree with that

Don Alfonso wrote:Saw him in Hairy Queens vs Leicester game - just gave away penalties all day. Is he typically that bad?

Haven't seen him play in a few months but earlier in the season he looked like a quality player, think he was MOTM against Stade at Welford Road with a load of turnovers and a try and had a run of good performances

Get him in, then.

geoff according to O'Connor he's not IQ, apparently Geordan Murphy was trying to tap him up for Ireland

geoff999rugby wrote:Not in virtually all Pro12 games as far as I understand it - Ireland are in crises mode in the 2nd row next year

Toner, Henderson, Ryan and then it Dillane, AOC and Foley - that is a very bare cupboard. Henderson in the 2nd row is, arguably, Irelands Most Important player.

Given past history I believe it when I see it with respect to an established Leinster player coming north.

If I was Schmidt I'd offer Fitzgerald of Leicester a place on the summer tour

Good call on the summer tour Geoff, that is when the cupboard will be barest. Next season Touhy surely has to be considered for squad depth though and Nagle will be in the mix too.

marty2086 wrote:geoff according to O'Connor he's not IQ, apparently Geordan Murphy was trying to tap him up for Ireland

Interesting in so far as there are people in Irish rugby who believe differently.
Then again Thomas Waldron doesn't know where all his grandparents were born so they may be right

It was Leicester told him he was qualified for England

I didn't know anything about my English qualification until Leicester got in touch with me about coming over and I started having a look around to see if I had one.

You think he'd have picked up on Irish roots if he was looking at his family history and getting asked about it, maybe the IRFU are using the same scouts the WRU used to use

geoff999rugby wrote:Not in virtually all Pro12 games as far as I understand it - Ireland are in crises mode in the 2nd row next year

Toner, Henderson, Ryan and then it Dillane, AOC and Foley - that is a very bare cupboard. Henderson in the 2nd row is, arguably, Irelands Most Important player.

Don't forget Touhy and Treadwell!

Bit early for Treadwell ! but looks promising.

Tuohy needs to come back fighting - hopefully still has the heart for it
One thing is for choice given the shortage will never have abetter chance.

Extensions for Reidy (2 years) and Lutton (1 year).

Good work, especially Reidy.

Outstanding Contracts for 2016

Peter Browne
Paul Rowley
Ian Humphreys
Luke Marshall
Ruaidhrí Murphy
Willie Faloon
Bronson Ross
Sam Windsor
Clive Ross
Conor Joyce  

Been told Luke Marshall is a done deal          

The only one I would half-consider are Browne and the Rosses.

Not world-beaters, but will do on a rainy Friday night at home against Zebre.

And what of Oor Wullie? Any chance he might come back full strength again next season? Or is he just banjaxed?

Don Alfonso wrote:Extensions for Reidy (2 years) and Lutton (1 year).

Good work, especially Reidy.

Lutton was dire against Scarlets, he's more of a pen machine than Lewis Stevenson ever was. Would have thought with Herbst and Ah You as first and second choice we would have gone with a youngster as third choice. Presuming Lutton won't be extended again.

greygoose wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Extensions for Reidy (2 years) and Lutton (1 year).

Good work, especially Reidy.

Lutton was dire against Scarlets, he's more of a pen machine than Lewis Stevenson ever was. Would have thought with Herbst and Ah You as first and second choice we would have gone with a youngster as third choice. Presuming Lutton won't be extended again.

No - if you look above you can see me giving off about him similarly. Thought he looked very solid when he first came in, though.

I wonder if Clarke's contract will be renewed?

geoff999rugby wrote:Not in virtually all Pro12 games as far as I understand it - Ireland are in crises mode in the 2nd row next year

Toner, Henderson, Ryan and then it Dillane, AOC and Foley - that is a very bare cupboard. Henderson in the 2nd row is, arguably, Irelands Most Important player.

Given past history I believe it when I see it with respect to an established Leinster player coming north.

If I was Schmidt I'd offer Fitzgerald of Leicester a place on the summer tour

Is Fitzgerald qualified to play for Ireland?


Its amazing how bare the second row cupboard is at the moment. Theres very little between the ages of 32 and 23 but next year the second row stocks should look healthier. You have the current players plus Henderson, Alan O'Connor, Ross Moloney is a good prospect, Madigan is very highly rated in Munster and Threadwell looks a decent prospect. Watching the U20s, James Ryan has been the stand out player for Ireland and looks to be in Hendersons league in terms of talent. Hes not in the academy yet but I can see him being fast-tracked through though he won't play for Ireland seniors for 2 or 3 years.

Our Wullie is facing surgery (on his foot I think). He reckons its a 6 month recovery. Apparently it's a reoccurrence of an old injury. Think the surgery is iminient - get well soon Willie!

I cant see Faloon coming back to be honest  - hence the rumours of Doyle returning
The IRFU think Fitzgerald is qualified - although they also thing O'Connor is as well so who knows

Lutton has got 1 year and as suggested that is about 3rd choice cover until Trenier or Simpson are ready to be 3/4th choice.
Expect B Ross to get 1 more year.
Murphy is on decent money and I think is bound to go, cant see Humphreys staying which means Windsor will, unless we get a Leinster 10

Joyce is only 22 so he might get 1 more year but he needs to make a mark quickly

So my guess is Humphreys, Murphy and maybe Rowley and maybe Joyce to go - the rest to stay, unless we sign a 10 in which Windsor to go as well
If Faloon is re signed Ulster are doing him a huge favour - the brutal decision should be to release him.

Poor Willie. I remember he had an absolute stormer when we played Bath at home one year in the Heineken Cup. Thought he was going to be quality.

Notch wrote:Poor Willie. I remember he had an absolute stormer when we played Bath at home one year in the Heineken Cup. Thought he was going to be quality.

I remember that game so well Notch, I was stuck in the midst of Bath fans and they were all asking who Wille was. I thought at that time he was definitely going to be the Irish Martyn Williams.

Team:

Olding, Gilroy, L Marshall, Arnold, Stockdale, PJ (C), Pienaar
Black, Andrew, Ross, Browne, VDM, Diack, Henry, Williams

Murphy, McCall, Lutton, Wilson, Reidy, P Marshall, Cave, Scholes.

Cave benched after a poor performance last week. Relieved to see Gilroy and Williams starting. Not surprised Lutton doesn't start, but would have started Reidy over Henry.

What's wrong with O'Connor?

So Nick gets a chance to impress his future boss with a huge match winning display

Munchkin wrote:Cave benched after a poor performance last week. Relieved to see Gilroy and Williams starting. Not surprised Lutton doesn't start, but would have started Reidy over Henry.

What's wrong with O'Connor?

A virus apparently, probably why he had to go off so early last week despite no obvious injury.

Hmmm. That's a two back-rowers on the bench. Assuming Diack will cover second row. Food to see Scholes back. Bit concerned about ARnold at 12.

JmD wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Cave benched after a poor performance last week. Relieved to see Gilroy and Williams starting. Not surprised Lutton doesn't start, but would have started Reidy over Henry.

What's wrong with O'Connor?

A virus apparently, probably why he had to go off so early last week despite no obvious injury.

Thanks, JmD. Now it makes that he was taken off early.

Pete330v2 wrote:So Nick gets a chance to impress his future boss with a huge match winning display

Poor Cardiff fans won't know whether to cheer him or jeer him.

Don Alfonso wrote:Hmmm. That's a two back-rowers on the bench. Assuming Diack will cover second row. Food to see Scholes back. Bit concerned about ARnold at 12.

Has he been injured? Would still prefer him over Stockdale personally. Hope he signs a new contract...

I would prefer to see Olding at 12 and Gilroy at 15 for this game

He has been injured, yeah. Definitely hope he stays - great player.

So - will this team do the job, do people think?

With Williams and Luke Marshall back, I'm hoping so. Saw an interview with Pienaar and he said they were upset with themselves after the Scarlets, and they saw an angry Les in the changing room.

Still a bit of a soft tight 5 for my liking. We need a few more hard nosed players with a bit of niggle. In my opinion we are a team of nice guys.

toml wrote:Still a bit of a soft tight 5 for my liking. We need a few more hard nosed players with a bit of niggle. In my opinion we are a team of nice guys.

Yep definitely. Would love a Donncha O'Callaghan type player at Ulster. Any ones we've had haven't had the brains to get away with anything so do more harm than good.

How many weeks now has McCall been on the bench? It's starting to look like it's not just about resting him...

I think AOC has the potential to be that sort of player for us.

McCall is being rested in order to ensure he can come strong in the back end of the season.
The opinion is all 3 of the LH can do a decent job and it should not be underestimated how much playing regularly at prop takes out of a player, doubly so in their first full season in the first XV.

AOC does have the making of a awkward player - highly regarded by Kiss at least.

We are too nice no question.

Unavailable for selection (international duty):
Rory Best, Stuart McCloskey, Jared Payne, Andrew Trimble

Unavailable for selection (injury):
Tommy Bowe (knee), Willie Faloon (foot), Iain Henderson (hamstring), Ian Humphreys (calf), Wiehahn Herbst (great toe), Rob Herring (hamstring), Louis Ludik (thigh), Peter Nelson (foot), Alan O'Connor (viral infection), Dan Tuohy (ankle).

Finding out more on that viral infection - Ruan had it, Cave has it and should be added to the above list.

Would go a long way to explain why both have been under par in recent weeks.
Worry is how many more will be struck down.
IMO neither Cave or Williams are 100% at the moment, as well as the above listed problems.

Just noticed that Tim Boys started for Crusaders in their super rugby opener against Chiefs!

I know he never got a chance to play when he came to Ulster as medical cover... But hadn't realised he was that standard.

I mean... Did he not run his own gardening business?

Well played to him if he broke through!

Yeah, he's a very good player indeed and would have been an outstanding signing for us but there's not really any money for players below the elite level in NZ. Either you're at that level elite Super Rugby level, you play in Europe or Japan, or you do something else to augment your income.

I'd say there's a huge amount of very decently paid professional players in the Pro12 who just wouldn't be able to make rugby their full time job if they were living in New Zealand, because they're not at that standard.

Tim Boys was the one temporary player we got in last year who would have been an asset.
The rest were squad fillers

Darren Cave has been embarrassing so far. The second time he fumbled he just lay down for 5 seconds. He mustn't be right

I think he would have started if fully fit. He was chosen for bench because there pretty much is nobody else. Having to play him most of the game is very much a worry.

Poor game so far, scrummaging just doesn't look right on those fake pitches. Pete Browne is our star man so far