Irish Squad for New Zealand Tour 2012

Just some speculation to see how the state of the squad in less than a years time near the start of the new 4 year cycle. There will certainly be 3 Tests and probably one if not two mid-week games, so a squad of 37 will probably tour given there will be no Churchill Cup to be involved in.

Here is my 37, injury permitting, feel free to disagree

Prop- Cian Healy, Paddy McCalister, Mike Ross, Jamie Hagan, John Andress

Hooker- Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Mike Sherry, Niall Annett

Lock- Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Donncha Ryan, Ian Nagle, Devin Toner

Back Row- Stephen Ferris, Sean O'Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Rhys Ruddock, Dominic Ryan, Peter O'Mahoney/Willie Faloon

Scrum Half- Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Paul O'Donohoe

Out Half- Jonny Sexton, Ian Keatley, Ian Humphries

Centre- Fergus McFadden, Luke Marshall, Brian O'Driscoll, Nevin Spence

Back Three- Keith Earls, Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Luke Fitzgerald, Craig Gilroy, Felix Jones, Rob Kearney

MBTGOG wrote:Scrum Half- Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Paul O'Donohoe

Can't see POD making it, I'm sorry to say. Moving to Connacht is good in that he'll get game time, but after losing so many players I think it'll be 'once bitten, twice shy' for Connacht.

Unless POD is head and shoulders better than everyone else I don't think Connacht will start him over Frank Murphy and Cillian Willis, preferring to give games to players they think are less likely to turn up, get noticed, and sign better contracts elsewhere within 12 months.

His best chance would have been leaving 12 months ago, not this year.

4 hookers?? Its a step too far for Annett. Not to open another thread but maybe a south african could be there.

I'm not sure will O'Mahony/Faloon get the call up. At 29 Jennings is a more likely bet.

Also its probably O'Leary, Murray, Reddan at scrumhalf.

Cillian Willis has retired.

Stag,

This is more about who you'd like to see with a dollop of reality thrown in, not just who you think will make it.

MBTGOG wrote:Cillian Willis has retired.

Has he? That's a shame.

Still, POD would need to start every HC match for Connacht to get near the Ireland squad.

Speaking of Connacht, they have Andrew Browne who could be a bolter. Supposed to be a second row, but played most of the year at 6 and won young player of the year for them. Nice to have a second row/back rower in an inverted Quinlan mould.

greybeard,

That's a good call. I'd like to include him somewhere but ahead of who?

Thats a good shout so.

Not bad Munsty. I'd add Touhy into the locks and take Annett out. I'm very confident that Annett will make it internationally and without wanting to big him up too much I can see him being Ulster's captain in 7/8 years time. Next year will be too soon for him.

Hope 1f's knee is still in one piece.

MBTGOG wrote:greybeard,

That's a good call. I'd like to include him somewhere but ahead of who?

I haven't a clue. Too many good players and others with great potential.

But as a Leinster fan I'd say just get rid of one of those Munster lads

WillyGilly wrote:Hope 1f's knee is still in one piece.

He can have mine!

I like Annett a lot, problem is we have two very strong understudies to Best in Kyriacou and Brady. It's a position Ulster have strength in depth in.

Kyriacou signed a new contract in January didn't he? Not sure about Brady's position but he's over 30 right. Annett is a real talent I hope we keep him on.

My idea for selecting Annett is that he might come off the bench in one of the mid-week games.

More importantly though the coaching staff get a chance to work with him and he gets used to the environment and set up.

Me too. And yes, he did. I think he's established as our number 2 now. Annett will be playing AIL for another year or two I think. Just hope he's willing to wait for a year.

Notch wrote:Just hope he's willing to wait for a year.

That's the tightrope the provinces walk, though, isn't it? Can't afford to keep potential signed up. We lost Keatley, Hagan and Carr because we didn't offer them full time contracts, and we've only just got two of them back (although Carr has his work cut out for him justifying his contract)

And we've lost Stewart Maguire this year as well. Would love to keep hiim, but it's not possible.

Why would you love to keep him when you have Hagan and Ross?

Yeah. Annett is young yet though. He has time on his side. I'd love him to stay.

I wonder is Annets generation of Irish players the ones who will move to Connacht and stay with Connacht.

Please let them not poach Annett

We're gonna need him down the line! I hope the management realise that and give him some gametime when he's ready.

Would it really be poaching? They lost Cronin and there is a young promising IQ hooker looking for Magners game time who is probably 4th choice in his own team.

red_stag wrote:Why would you love to keep him when you have Hagan and Ross?

Greed

And it's all about squad depth.

That squad you've picked is far too radical. Way too many pro's axed, here hold on a minute...

red_stag wrote:Would it really be poaching? They lost Cronin and there is a young promising IQ hooker looking for Magners game time who is probably 4th choice in his own team.

I'd call another province stealing our most promising Academy prospects poaching. It's just business, but I'd feel aggrieved to see Ulster developing players and them being lured off. We've given Connacht a big hand by sending them several of our Academy graduates already.

He's fourth choice now, but he's 20. He'll move up the pecking order as he gets older I'm sure of it. We have big plans for Annett and we won't let him go easily. It's in our interests to keep him involved and give him gametime and I hope we do, to ward off the vultures. It's important we keep our current crop of Academy stars together. We want to benefit from our Academy, not see other provinces benefit.

Notch wrote:I'd call another province stealing our most promising Academy prospects poaching. It's just business, but I'd feel aggrieved to see Ulster developing players and them being lured off. We've given Connacht a big hand by sending them several of our Academy graduates already.

Yes, but...

Connacht get to say to fringe players "Hey, you'll only get an academy contract if you stay, we'll give you a full one", but a few years down the line we get to say to their better players "Hey, you'll only get Amlin rugby if you stay, we'll give you Heineken" so we poach right back, and it's a better quality of poaching.

Connacht sign promising players, but they don't hold on to them, as this year has shown. The real poaching has been Munster have Keatley from Leinster, by way of Connacht, and we have Cronin from Munster, via the same route.

That's going to keep happening if they don't develop their own players. When a player joins to advance their career, they'll probably consider leaving to advance their career. It's business.

I think Annett is going to be a quality hooker, so good business for us would be to keep him!

Oh and I've also just remembered, didn't the other provinces actually promise to help Connacht out by actively sending promising players their way? Can it be poaching if we're deciding who they get?

Well that's exactly what's happened. We've sent 3 academy graduates to Connacht this close season.

But it's not really 'poaching' per se, is what I'm getting at.

Anyway, the poor buggers took NOC off you, you should be thanking them!

I saw a photo of your new up and coming out half, Jackson... Did I ever look that young?

greybeard wrote:But it's not really 'poaching' per se, is what I'm getting at.

I agree with you. If you can't accomodate them with game time they leave.

Munster lost the likes of Sean Cronin, Mike Ross and Eoin Reddan like this. We had to manage things a lot better with Nagle to keep him for now. I can see us losing him.

Munster would be better served throwing their lot in with Nagle and letting someone like MOD ride off into the sunset, wouldn't they?

Sometimes I think you just have to invest in the future whether you like it or not. There'd be a small dip in overall quality to begin with, but it would be for the best. If everything that is said about Nagle is true then Munster can ill afford to let him go.

But then again, the lure of the province is still strong. We lost Cullen to Leicester, he became a better player, he returned to his province and we've certainly profitted from that.

greybeard wrote:Munster would be better served throwing their lot in with Nagle and letting someone like MOD ride off into the sunset, wouldn't they?

Yes, MOD has been fantastic but he's the one I'd lose. Donnacha Ryan has reacted brilliantly to the emergence of Nagle.

greybeard wrote: If everything that is said about Nagle is true then Munster can ill afford to let him go.

But then again, the lure of the province is still strong. We lost Cullen to Leicester, he became a better player, he returned to his province and we've certainly profitted from that.

We need to retain him. Ryan is young but is still about 4 or 5 years older than Nagle. O'Connell, O'Driscoll and O'Callaghan are all about 31/32.

Where would Nagle go if Munster were to lose him? Surely he'll get a good bit of gametime at the start of next season if, as most of us are predicting, POC DOC and Ryan go to NZ

WillyGilly wrote:Where would Nagle go if Munster were to lose him? Surely he'll get a good bit of gametime at the start of next season if, as most of us are predicting, POC DOC and Ryan go to NZ

We had to fight off a bid from Northampton earlier in the year. I suspect he will get plenty of game time with Munster.

red_stag wrote:

greybeard wrote:But it's not really 'poaching' per se, is what I'm getting at.

I agree with you. If you can't accomodate them with game time they leave.

Munster lost the likes of Sean Cronin, Mike Ross and Eoin Reddan like this. We had to manage things a lot better with Nagle to keep him for now. I can see us losing him.

Some leave, some stay. Depends how strong their ambition is to play for their home province. I wouldn't blame a player for leaving if he can't get any gametime at home. It happens.

I think Annett will though- get gametime that is. There aren't many 20-year old hookers who play regularly for a top club/province. It takes a bit of time and experience to break through in that position.

If he gets game time then he'll stay of course. Depends how patient he is. He may want to leave and return who knows. Would he really be ready for top flight rugby now even with a team like Connacht.

What about a loan system to Connacht? Which only exists during years when Connacht are in the HC

I think he'd find it very tough at first, playing hooker at the top level is incredibly demanding physically. Right now he's playing AIL rugby, Ireland U20s and Ulster Ravens. I feel that's the right level for his age and his development as a player is not yet being stymied.

He turns 20 in a few days. Still very young for a hooker.

greybeard wrote:What about a loan system to Connacht? Which only exists during years when Connacht are in the HC

A loan system in general would be good. It would only work for contracted players. Academy contracts are a bit different.

I'd say it takes longer for forwards to emerge at this level. They need to bulk up a lot compared with their school boy days. Dare I say as well the most positions in the pack are more physically demanding than someone a few years out of school could cope with. With backs it's perhaps slightly easier to get going sooner.

What a pansy Dylan Hartley was at the U20 World Cup in 2005. He was playing Heineken Cup in 2006 . . . . :run1:

Varies a lot from player to player. Paddy McAllister is someone who came through very quickly, others require more time.

Notch, I think McAllister can actually overtake Healy in the next 12 months. He's a player I rate highly. I thought and still kind of do that there is a good player in Darragh Hurley but for injury.

I think he can and will overtake Court, after that- who knows?

I do feel Healy, Best and Ross have formed a very strong unit for the time being bit after the RWC it's open season.

Notch wrote:I think he can and will overtake Court, after that- who knows?

I do feel Healy, Best and Ross have formed a very strong unit for the time being bit after the RWC it's open season.

Until next seasons 6 Nations they are untouchable I reckon. However for the Summer and Autumn tests next year we could see McAllister, Cronin and Hagan emerge as understudies and possible rivals for their shirt.

Sounding quite good in terms of back ups. Aside from Court what are we like in terms of a prop that covers both sides?

Until the 6N catches up with the domestic game and embraces the 23 man squad that's still going to be very important. And it'll be a disappearing skill in the leagues exactly because of the 23 man squad.

Grey, none that I know of. Maybe Brett Wilkinson but I'd rather we use our versatility. Post RWC Maybe:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien
Reddan, Sexton
McFadden, O'Driscoll
Earls, Kearney, Bowe

Cronin, McAllister, Hagan, McLaughlin, Murray, Keatley, Fitzgerald

Regardless of whether it is 22 or 23 subs IMO we need 2 props on our bench. Ryan and McLaughlin cover second row and flanker. Just a possibility. But we need to develop depth at front row.

Actually I think Fitzpatrick can do it too.

I know next to nothing about Wilkinson to be honest, but I think Hagan started every Connacht match this season at tighthead, so I'd be surprised if Wilkinson has TH experience.

Not as convinced by Fitzpatrick as I have been by Paddy Mac. On props covering both sides the only other one I properly know of is Bryan Young, and he never convinced me at TH.