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When should World Rugby Intervene.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 29 Mar 2016, 7:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

As we all know, World Rugby have decided to intervene in the Joe Marler case. A 6 Nations Committee (AKA the Blazers of Dublin) had some sort of hearing and decided not to pursue the matter. World Rugby have stepped in and called for a new hearing in a situation the RPA (Rugby Players Association - effectively the players union) liken to trying a man twice for the same crime (or Double Jeopardy).

Now there is no point thrashing out the wrongs of Marler - that has been discussed to death and there are extremists on both sides of the argument who frankly make any reasoned debate untenable.


What I would like to highlight (again) is another case. On 27th January an EPCR Disciplinary panel (interestingly also run by the Blazers of Dublin or BoD) found Laurent Sempere, the Stade Francais prop, guilty of a mid range offence of making contact with the eye(s) and/or eye area of the Leicester Tigers prop, Marcos Ayerza. Sempere was banned for 15 weeks.

http://www.epcrugby.com/discipline/32495.php#.Vvq6OvkrLcs

Four weeks later, in the midst of a player shortage, Stade appealed this ban to a panel made up of FFR/LNR officials (AKA the Blazers of Paris -BoP) who overturned the ban. It means that Sempere was allowed to immediately resume playing - but within the T14 only. This was referred to World Rugby for adjudication, but they declined to get involved.


So why are they willing to get involved in one case (even if I believe the BoD made the wrong call) and not in the other.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 02 Apr 2016, 11:47 am

Good thing he didn't say anything about Islam....

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Post by Hoonercat Sat 02 Apr 2016, 12:05 pm

Sin é wrote:'Gypsey' is a pejorative term though (all "Gypsies" are thieves and troublesome etc, etc.). His ethnicity is Roma. If Marler had called him a Roma, it wouldn't have been a racial slur.

His ancestry is Irish, not Roma, which makes him an Irish Traveler. The word gypsy is very subjective, I wouldn't relate it to thieves and troublemakers - pikey and gypo are the derogative terms used.

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Post by exile jack Sat 02 Apr 2016, 12:26 pm

Hoonercat wrote:
Sin é wrote:'Gypsey' is a pejorative term though (all "Gypsies" are thieves and troublesome etc, etc.). His ethnicity is Roma. If Marler had called him a Roma, it wouldn't have been a racial slur.

His ancestry is Irish, not Roma, which makes him an Irish Traveler. The word gypsy is very subjective, I wouldn't relate it to thieves and troublemakers - pikey and gypo are the derogative terms used.

More complicated than that i'm afraid.As any sociology student could tell you,stereotypes are oversimplified ideas about groups of people,prejudice refers to thoughts and feelings about those groups,and discrimination refers to action towards them as groups or individuals.Racism is a type of prejudice that involves set beliefs about a specific racial group or accepted subsets of that group.The RFU,as the ethical and moral guardian of rugby union football in England, sets out its policy on inclusion irrespective of race,creed,religion,ethnicity,nationality et al in its Inclusion Policy.The problem is that Joe M clearly hadn't read it and the RFU had,for whatever reason(s),chosen to ignore it after the incident.The RFU doesn't even have the defence of either not having any policy yet or working on a revision.Once the RFU had gone dark WR had no choice but to step in.


Last edited by exile jack on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Post by Sin é Sat 02 Apr 2016, 12:55 pm

Hoonercat wrote:
Sin é wrote:'Gypsey' is a pejorative term though (all "Gypsies" are thieves and troublesome etc, etc.). His ethnicity is Roma. If Marler had called him a Roma, it wouldn't have been a racial slur.

His ancestry is Irish, not Roma, which makes him an Irish Traveler. The word gypsy is very subjective, I wouldn't relate it to thieves and troublemakers - pikey and gypo are the derogative terms used.

I should have known that he is Irish as Lee is a common enough name in Ireland. Andy Lee, the boxer is of traveller stock. If he is Irish then, he isn't a 'gypsey.'

Irish Travellers (Irish: an lucht siúil) also called pavees, or pejoratively referred to as tinkers, pikeys, knackers or gypsies, are a traditionally itinerant ethnic group who maintain a set of traditions.

The Romani (also spelled Romany; /ˈroʊməni/, /ˈrɒ-/), or Roma, are a traditionally itinerant ethnic group living mostly in Europe and the Americas, who originate from the northwestern regions of the Indian subcontinent,[48] specifically from Northern India,[49][50] presumably from the northwestern Indian states Rajasthan,[49][50] Haryana and Punjab.[50] The Romani are widely known among English-speaking people by the exonym "Gypsies" (or "Gipsies"), which many Romani people consider a racial slur due to its connotations of illegality and irregularity.[51] Other exonyms are Ashkali and Sinti.

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Post by Heaf Sat 02 Apr 2016, 1:54 pm

If the term Gypsy is offensive then this doesn't seem to make sense? : GRT history

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 02 Apr 2016, 3:09 pm

lostinwales wrote:Good thing he didn't say anything about Islam....


Well maybe, ISIS are the self appointed protectors of Muslims and takes offence on behalf of Islam. TJ protects Gypseys and takes offence on their behalf. Its this fashion for some to be vicariously offended on behalf of others which I find bizzare as they appear to be more hurt than the principal victim.

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Post by offload Sat 02 Apr 2016, 4:46 pm


1. Some posters here still ignore the criticality of context. The words Gypsy, black, gay, Maori, Jew are not racist. However, Marler called Lee a Gypsy intentionally to offend and insult his ethnicity. It was therefore a racist remark and to argue otherwise is futile. Marler knew it and was quick to apologise.
2. If 6N's rugby had been competent they would have quickly condemned and issued a minor sanction. It would be long forgotten. But they didn't and poor judgment resulted in a delay that allowed the usual media c**p to gain momentum, then they did nothing, which looks like covering up. World Rugby had to intervene because 6N's got it so wrong.

What should have been a minor sanction and public apology has run and run. Pathetic.
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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 02 Apr 2016, 4:58 pm

offload wrote:
1. Some posters here still ignore the criticality of context. The words Gypsy, black, gay, Maori, Jew are not racist. However, Marler called Lee a Gypsy intentionally to offend and insult his ethnicity. It was therefore a racist remark and to argue otherwise is futile. Marler knew it and was quick to apologise.
2. If 6N's rugby had been competent they would have quickly condemned and issued a minor sanction. It would be long forgotten. But they didn't and poor judgment resulted in a delay that allowed the usual media c**p to gain momentum, then they did nothing, which looks like covering up. World Rugby had to intervene because 6N's got it so wrong.

What should have been a minor sanction and public apology has run and run. Pathetic.

Its obvious that some people arent going to be happy until Marler is banned, and thats all their after. whether the comment was racist or not is irrelevant.

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Post by Heaf Sat 02 Apr 2016, 6:03 pm

offload wrote:
1. Some posters here still ignore the criticality of context. The words Gypsy, black, gay, Maori, Jew are not racist. However, Marler called Lee a Gypsy intentionally to offend and insult his ethnicity. It was therefore a racist remark and to argue otherwise is futile. Marler knew it and was quick to apologise.
2. If 6N's rugby had been competent they would have quickly condemned and issued a minor sanction. It would be long forgotten. But they didn't and poor judgment resulted in a delay that allowed the usual media c**p to gain momentum, then they did nothing, which looks like covering up. World Rugby had to intervene because 6N's got it so wrong.

What should have been a minor sanction and public apology has run and run. Pathetic.
I get that but some posters seem to be suggesting that the word Gypsy in itself is racist and therefore Gyspy Boy is a racist remark but English c*** isn't because by their logic the word Gypsy is racist but English isn't.  I agree context is key and therefore despite some on here thinking English c*** isn't a racist remark it's every bit as racist as Gypsy Boy as both were intended as insults that contained reference to race/nationality.  I also agree it's been blown out of all proportion in the wider scale of what constitutes racism - the comments were ill-advised but I don't believe for one minute Marler is a racist (or Lee if the comments attributed to him are also true).


Last edited by Heaf on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by trebellbobaggins Sat 02 Apr 2016, 6:48 pm

Sin é wrote:
Hoonercat wrote:
Sin é wrote:'Gypsey' is a pejorative term though (all "Gypsies" are thieves and troublesome etc, etc.). His ethnicity is Roma. If Marler had called him a Roma, it wouldn't have been a racial slur.

His ancestry is Irish, not Roma, which makes him an Irish Traveler. The word gypsy is very subjective, I wouldn't relate it to thieves and troublemakers - pikey and gypo are the derogative terms used.

I should have known that he is Irish as Lee is a common enough name in Ireland. Andy Lee, the boxer is of traveller stock. If he is Irish then, he isn't a 'gypsey.'

Irish Travellers (Irish: an lucht siúil) also called pavees, or pejoratively referred to as tinkers, pikeys, knackers or gypsies, are a traditionally itinerant ethnic group who maintain a set of traditions.

The Romani (also spelled Romany; /ˈroʊməni/, /ˈrɒ-/), or Roma, are a traditionally itinerant ethnic group living mostly in Europe and the Americas, who originate from the northwestern regions of the Indian subcontinent,[48] specifically from Northern India,[49][50] presumably from the northwestern Indian states Rajasthan,[49][50] Haryana and Punjab.[50] The Romani are widely known among English-speaking people by the exonym "Gypsies" (or "Gipsies"), which many Romani people consider a racial slur due to its connotations of illegality and irregularity.[51] Other exonyms are Ashkali and Sinti.


That was my thought too. My Grandad was an Irish traveller but would never have considered himself Gypsy as that referred to the Roma people.

It is complicated though as I've definitely heard the term "gypo" directed at those of us with traveller decent. It seems in their ignorance people are happy to throw these terms around.

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Post by pheonix Sat 02 Apr 2016, 8:50 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
offload wrote:
1. Some posters here still ignore the criticality of context. The words Gypsy, black, gay, Maori, Jew are not racist. However, Marler called Lee a Gypsy intentionally to offend and insult his ethnicity. It was therefore a racist remark and to argue otherwise is futile. Marler knew it and was quick to apologise.
2. If 6N's rugby had been competent they would have quickly condemned and issued a minor sanction. It would be long forgotten. But they didn't and poor judgment resulted in a delay that allowed the usual media c**p to gain momentum, then they did nothing, which looks like covering up. World Rugby had to intervene because 6N's got it so wrong.

What should have been a minor sanction and public apology has run and run. Pathetic.

Its obvious that some people arent going to be happy until Marler is banned, and thats all their after. whether the comment was racist or not is irrelevant.

Spot on. It's because he plays for an England team that are Grand Slam champions and beat their country to achieve it. Some on here and in the wider world who have pursued this (including the people that went bleating to World Rugby) are bitter and have an irrational dislike of England. They can dress it up as this being about their new-found concern for certain minorities and publish a thesis on here about different meanings of certain words etc, but it's got nothing to do with what he said. It's about his nationality.

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Post by offload Sun 03 Apr 2016, 8:32 am

pheonix wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
offload wrote:
1. Some posters here still ignore the criticality of context. The words Gypsy, black, gay, Maori, Jew are not racist. However, Marler called Lee a Gypsy intentionally to offend and insult his ethnicity. It was therefore a racist remark and to argue otherwise is futile. Marler knew it and was quick to apologise.
2. If 6N's rugby had been competent they would have quickly condemned and issued a minor sanction. It would be long forgotten. But they didn't and poor judgment resulted in a delay that allowed the usual media c**p to gain momentum, then they did nothing, which looks like covering up. World Rugby had to intervene because 6N's got it so wrong.

What should have been a minor sanction and public apology has run and run. Pathetic.

Its obvious that some people arent going to be happy until Marler is banned, and thats all their after. whether the comment was racist or not is irrelevant.

Spot on. It's because he plays for an England team that are Grand Slam champions and beat their country to achieve it. Some on here and in the wider world who have pursued this (including the people that went bleating to World Rugby) are bitter and have an irrational dislike of England. They can dress it up as this being about their new-found concern for certain minorities and publish a thesis on here about different meanings of certain words etc, but it's got nothing to do with what he said. It's about his nationality.

Very silly deluded comment. To think this is about England is ridiculous, do you have a persecution complex? 6N's rugby got this wrong from the start and that's why it's still in the news.
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Post by Hoonercat Sun 03 Apr 2016, 12:40 pm

pheonix wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
offload wrote:
1. Some posters here still ignore the criticality of context. The words Gypsy, black, gay, Maori, Jew are not racist. However, Marler called Lee a Gypsy intentionally to offend and insult his ethnicity. It was therefore a racist remark and to argue otherwise is futile. Marler knew it and was quick to apologise.
2. If 6N's rugby had been competent they would have quickly condemned and issued a minor sanction. It would be long forgotten. But they didn't and poor judgment resulted in a delay that allowed the usual media c**p to gain momentum, then they did nothing, which looks like covering up. World Rugby had to intervene because 6N's got it so wrong.

What should have been a minor sanction and public apology has run and run. Pathetic.

Its obvious that some people arent going to be happy until Marler is banned, and thats all their after. whether the comment was racist or not is irrelevant.

Spot on. It's because he plays for an England team that are Grand Slam champions and beat their country to achieve it. Some on here and in the wider world who have pursued this (including the people that went bleating to World Rugby) are bitter and have an irrational dislike of England. They can dress it up as this being about their new-found concern for certain minorities and publish a thesis on here about different meanings of certain words etc, but it's got nothing to do with what he said. It's about his nationality.

As an Englishman I'm embarrassed by this comment, I can only hope that others don't assume that this is the opinion of most English fans.

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Post by exile jack Sun 03 Apr 2016, 10:26 pm

Hoonercat wrote:
pheonix wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
offload wrote:
1. Some posters here still ignore the criticality of context. The words Gypsy, black, gay, Maori, Jew are not racist. However, Marler called Lee a Gypsy intentionally to offend and insult his ethnicity. It was therefore a racist remark and to argue otherwise is futile. Marler knew it and was quick to apologise.
2. If 6N's rugby had been competent they would have quickly condemned and issued a minor sanction. It would be long forgotten. But they didn't and poor judgment resulted in a delay that allowed the usual media c**p to gain momentum, then they did nothing, which looks like covering up. World Rugby had to intervene because 6N's got it so wrong.

What should have been a minor sanction and public apology has run and run. Pathetic.



Its obvious that some people arent going to be happy until Marler is banned, and thats all their after. whether the comment was racist or not is irrelevant.

Spot on. It's because he plays for an England team that are Grand Slam champions and beat their country to achieve it. Some on here and in the wider world who have pursued this (including the people that went bleating to World Rugby) are bitter and have an irrational dislike of England. They can dress it up as this being about their new-found concern for certain minorities and publish a thesis on here about different meanings of certain words etc, but it's got nothing to do with what he said. It's about his nationality.

As an Englishman I'm embarrassed by this comment, I can only hope that others don't assume that this is the opinion of most English fans.

Speaking for myself,i don't assume that the opinion you refer to is the opinion of most English fans.In turn,if and when pheonix(sic) names the Welsh player(s) guilty of alleged bigotry I hope those players receive an approriate sanction.Btw,and for the sake of completeness,our boy Francis should have got an extra 4 weeks for his discipline brainfade,a quite nonsensical act.

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