Shock plans to expand Guinness Pro12 and split the competition into two conferences are revealed

First topic message reminder :

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/shock-plans-expand-guinness-pro12-11126193

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pro12-ceo-reveals-plans-to-add-more-teams-and-split-league-into-conferences-34591303.html

Typical bloody Walesonline article without much information in it, as to what might be happening.

But London Scottish and Welsh might seem to be an option, RGC1404 might be another, or maybe even London Irish now their bottom of the Aviva Premiership.

The Great Aukster wrote:The Pro12 need more countries involved to increase the potential market size so in that frame a two conference system is good.

However they don't need fewer games as that would only reduce strength in depth even further.

New countries would mean another overhaul in qualification in the European competition mind.

munkian wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The Pro12 need more countries involved to increase the potential market size so in that frame a two conference system is good.

However they don't need fewer games as that would only reduce strength in depth even further.

New countries would mean another overhaul in qualification in the European competition mind.

If the Pro 12 invested in Italian rugby it would actually mean the league doesn't need to expand to more countries as Italy has a similar population and media market to France, which offers the potential to bring in a lot more in revenue than it currently does.

marty2086 wrote:

munkian wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The Pro12 need more countries involved to increase the potential market size so in that frame a two conference system is good.

However they don't need fewer games as that would only reduce strength in depth even further.

New countries would mean another overhaul in qualification in the European competition mind.

If the Pro 12 invested in Italian rugby it would actually mean the league doesn't need to expand to more countries as Italy has a similar population and media market to France, which offers the potential to bring in a lot more in revenue than it currently does.

But why should the financially weaker competition prop up Italy ? Surely the English and French leagues should at least help ?

munkian wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

munkian wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The Pro12 need more countries involved to increase the potential market size so in that frame a two conference system is good.

However they don't need fewer games as that would only reduce strength in depth even further.

New countries would mean another overhaul in qualification in the European competition mind.

If the Pro 12 invested in Italian rugby it would actually mean the league doesn't need to expand to more countries as Italy has a similar population and media market to France, which offers the potential to bring in a lot more in revenue than it currently does.

But why should the financially weaker  competition prop up Italy ? Surely the English and French leagues should at least help ?

Its an investment in its own future, just like the RFU did by investing in rugby in America and already the AP have a new tv deal out of it with one of the major networks

Are they doing for the massive financial rewards or the love of the game though ?

munkian wrote:Are they doing for the massive financial rewards or the love of the game though ?

Does it matter?

marty2086 wrote:

munkian wrote:Are they doing for the massive financial rewards or the love of the game though ?

Does it matter?

Well, yes ? If they are doing it to make money then its not comparable with the relatively poor Pro12 making a long term investment to develop Italian rugby which isn't going to generate anywhere near the amount of revenue as the US in the long term let alone short term.

munkian wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

munkian wrote:Are they doing for the massive financial rewards or the love of the game though ?

Does it matter?

Well, yes ? If they are doing it to make money then its not comparable with the relatively poor Pro12 making a long term investment to develop Italian rugby which isn't going to generate anywhere near the amount of revenue as the US in the long term let alone short term.  

So Pro 12 can't invest in Italy because it can't match the RFUs investment yet you don't know how much they invested and it can't reap the benefits yet you don't know what the predicted benefits are for either market right?

I didn't say they can't, I suggested they shouldn't have to do it alone.

You made the comparison with RFU investing in the US which I don't think is the same thing.

And no, I haven't done detailed research in exact figures but its an educated guess that America will generate more cash monies.

Moving to a two conference model with potentially two more teams in it would not necessarily mean a substantial loss in revenues depending on how you structure it.

Anayi referred to a conference model that would allow for expansion over time so, it's not immediately necessary to have more teams from day one.

Secondly, he said that more 'events' need to be created that generate fan interest, and TV/sponsors. Irish interpros, Judgement Day, Xmas derbies are working well. He said that nothing happened currently in September for example.

Some of the attendances during the season for particular matches are very low. If these could be replaced by a single match or bumper weekend event that doubled or tripled average attendances this would compensate for less matches in the season.

Quality, not quantity, seems to be his current maxim and those of the PRO12 team chiefs.

munkian wrote:I didn't say they can't, I suggested they shouldn't have to do it alone.

You made the comparison with RFU investing in the US which I don't think is the same thing.

And no, I haven't done detailed research in exact figures but its an educated guess that America will generate more cash monies.

Your educated guess fails to factor In the low starting point for rugby in the US and the crowded market

The RFU invested to get a foot in the door in the US

I was merely suggesting that the Pro 12 investing in Italy can have big benefits due to its size, it doesn't have the same competition as in the US.

Ireland playing in the US later this year should help build interest in the game in the States and in Irish rugby and hopefully the Pro 12 will get a rub from it too. In fact they should be in Chicago promoting the league at the same time

I'd think rugby games in places like Boston with a high level of Celtic descendants would be tailor made for professional teams especially as the Police/Fireservice already have amateur teams.

marty2086 wrote:

munkian wrote:I didn't say they can't, I suggested they shouldn't have to do it alone.

You made the comparison with RFU investing in the US which I don't think is the same thing.

And no, I haven't done detailed research in exact figures but its an educated guess that America will generate more cash monies.

Your educated guess fails to factor In the low starting point for rugby in the US and the crowded market

The RFU invested to get a foot in the door in the US

I was merely suggesting that the Pro 12 investing in Italy can have big benefits due to its size, it doesn't have the same competition as in the US.

Ireland playing in the US later this year should help build interest in the game in the States and in Irish rugby and hopefully the Pro 12 will get a rub from it too. In fact they should be in Chicago promoting the league at the same time

How does the Pro 12 invest in Italy? Where is this money coming from and how much will have to be invested to actually make a difference?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

munkian wrote:I didn't say they can't, I suggested they shouldn't have to do it alone.

You made the comparison with RFU investing in the US which I don't think is the same thing.

And no, I haven't done detailed research in exact figures but its an educated guess that America will generate more cash monies.

Your educated guess fails to factor In the low starting point for rugby in the US and the crowded market

The RFU invested to get a foot in the door in the US

I was merely suggesting that the Pro 12 investing in Italy can have big benefits due to its size, it doesn't have the same competition as in the US.

Ireland playing in the US later this year should help build interest in the game in the States and in Irish rugby and hopefully the Pro 12 will get a rub from it too. In fact they should be in Chicago promoting the league at the same time

How does the Pro 12 invest in Italy? Where is this money coming from and how much will have to be invested to actually make a difference?

One way would be to stop charging them for taking part in the Pro 12, I think they have decreased what the Italians pay but they are still paying for it.

Investment doesn't mean money, it can be knowledge, personnel etc. Sending coaches, refs, players, executives etc to help develop the game in Italy is one course of action. Even loaning players is an option, I know Ulster have players who aren't getting enough game time at a high enough level and the Italians are having to play semi pros during the 6Ns etc to make up numbers.

The more I read this thread, the more I become convinced that we have to stick with what we have got and work with it.

Italy are not a lost cause and it would be to everyones benefit if they were to improve. In terms of a bigger market for the product, Italy surely is the best bet. It is hard to see what commercial considerations Georgia or Romania could bring to the table. In terms of geography, including them is just pushing the boat out a bit to far as well. I would be much more sympathetic to these countries pushing for places in the international game, in an enhance six nations for example, even including relegation, but as far as the club game goes, them as well as Russia (another sleeping giant) need to be looking at their own competition.

Italy's continued participation in the Pro 12 will sit with themselves for now. Thy need to ask themselves the difficult questions about where they feel their future lies, either in the pro 12 or by building up their own league. If they want to stay, then they need to properly commit. At the moment they seem to have a bit of an existential crisis around that issue.

Lets be honest about it though, it has taken Scottish rugby a long, long time to come to terms with professionalism. Why do we think it will be any different for Italy. we probably need to cut them a bit more slack should they want it.

Any initiatives to improve the spectacle of games within the Pro 12 should be welcome though and the marketing does continue to improve. The best way to do that though, as Glasgow have shown and Connacht are now following is to provide an exciting, winning brand of rugby for the fans to watch, within or without the international windows.

I pretty much agree with BigGee there. the way to get Romania and Georgia more involved right now is thru the european cup - not the pro 12. Perhaps in years to come the pro 12 could expand further but not right now

The biggest problem with the Pro12 is we have never really had any time to settle in to it.

From a Welsh point of view, the season has been adjusted almost every season. We have had:

Welsh prem teams,
12 sides (Welsh going regional)
11 sides (Celtuc Warriors axed),
10 sides (Boarder Reivers axed),
Top 8 Celtic Cup axed,
Powergen/EDF as a serious Anglo-Welsh Cup,
EDF/LV= as development Anglo-Welsh Cup,
12 sides (Italians Jin),
Aironi axed, Zebre join,
Top 4 playoffs introduced,
European Qualification coming from the League.

Considering it is such a young tournament, that is a heap of changes. And realistically, these changes have all been made in the aim of improving things. I honestly think if we try to keep the structure the same and look at fine tuning things that could help.

For example, we could try having Welsh/Irish derbies as the first match of the season (Scottish sides against the Italians), at xmas (ScotTish derbies and Italian too), and near the end of the season (Judgement day). That would give the season a kick-start without risking the time honoured derbies.

TJ wrote:I pretty much agree with BigGee there.  the way to get Romania and Georgia more involved right now is thru the european cup - not the pro 12.  Perhaps in years to come the pro 12 could expand further but not right now

I think something in between is the way forward, a second Pro12 style league for Romania, Georgia and a handful of European teams. It will create a higher level of competition than already exists and maybe create greater opportunity for teams to play in Europe. Maybe an ERCC place for the 20th place and maybe have a plan in place to at least consider promotion and relegation to/from the Pro 12

marty2086 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

munkian wrote:I didn't say they can't, I suggested they shouldn't have to do it alone.

You made the comparison with RFU investing in the US which I don't think is the same thing.

And no, I haven't done detailed research in exact figures but its an educated guess that America will generate more cash monies.

Your educated guess fails to factor In the low starting point for rugby in the US and the crowded market

The RFU invested to get a foot in the door in the US

I was merely suggesting that the Pro 12 investing in Italy can have big benefits due to its size, it doesn't have the same competition as in the US.

Ireland playing in the US later this year should help build interest in the game in the States and in Irish rugby and hopefully the Pro 12 will get a rub from it too. In fact they should be in Chicago promoting the league at the same time

How does the Pro 12 invest in Italy? Where is this money coming from and how much will have to be invested to actually make a difference?

One way would be to stop charging them for taking part in the Pro 12, I think they have decreased what the Italians pay but they are still paying for it.

Investment doesn't mean money, it can be knowledge, personnel etc. Sending coaches, refs, players, executives etc to help develop the game in Italy is one course of action. Even loaning players is an option, I know Ulster have players who aren't getting enough game time at a high enough level and the Italians are having to play semi pros during the 6Ns etc to make up numbers.

It costs money to send coaches, ref, players executives etc to Italy just to help them out. We already have to spend enough money just to travel over to Italy twice a year. If Italy want to improve it has to come from investment from their own union, nobody else. They are in an incredibly fortunate position, given the amount of nations that would love to be playing in the 6 nations and top European competitions every year. I'm sure there is plenty of money in that union but they are clearly very poorly run. Hopefully COS can sort them out.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

munkian wrote:I didn't say they can't, I suggested they shouldn't have to do it alone.

You made the comparison with RFU investing in the US which I don't think is the same thing.

And no, I haven't done detailed research in exact figures but its an educated guess that America will generate more cash monies.

Your educated guess fails to factor In the low starting point for rugby in the US and the crowded market

The RFU invested to get a foot in the door in the US

I was merely suggesting that the Pro 12 investing in Italy can have big benefits due to its size, it doesn't have the same competition as in the US.

Ireland playing in the US later this year should help build interest in the game in the States and in Irish rugby and hopefully the Pro 12 will get a rub from it too. In fact they should be in Chicago promoting the league at the same time

How does the Pro 12 invest in Italy? Where is this money coming from and how much will have to be invested to actually make a difference?

One way would be to stop charging them for taking part in the Pro 12, I think they have decreased what the Italians pay but they are still paying for it.

Investment doesn't mean money, it can be knowledge, personnel etc. Sending coaches, refs, players, executives etc to help develop the game in Italy is one course of action. Even loaning players is an option, I know Ulster have players who aren't getting enough game time at a high enough level and the Italians are having to play semi pros during the 6Ns etc to make up numbers.

It costs money to send coaches, ref, players executives etc to Italy just to help them out. We already have to spend enough money just to travel over to Italy twice a year. If Italy want to improve it has to come from investment from their own union, nobody else. They are in an incredibly fortunate position, given the amount of nations that would love to be playing in the 6 nations and top European competitions every year. I'm sure there is plenty of money in that union but they are clearly very poorly run. Hopefully COS can sort them out.

And that is hurting the Pro 12 and 6Ns, by investing in Italy the Pro 12 nations can reap the rewards should that investment succeed. Its not preposterous an idea as you'd like to make out, as you point out teams make two trips every year why can't they do work on the ground while there?

Many sports, unions and associations do information exchanges and hold seminars etc

If there is such a distinct lack of interest and investment by the Italian Rugby Union then whats the point in us trying to give it a kick up the arse ?

The WRU needs to sort out its own regions/clubs/development.

munkian wrote:If there is such a distinct lack of interest and investment by the Italian Rugby Union then whats the point in us trying to give it a kick up the arse ?

The WRU needs to sort out its own regions/clubs/development.

Who said theres a lack of interest or investment?

If its not being done right then guidance from those who have had success in the area is a good way to go.

The point in the Pro12/6Ns counterparts doing it, is that the improvement of Italian rugby improves the product which increases interest and value, the growth of the game in Italy has the same benefit especially as Italy has some of the worlds biggest and most prestigious brands and a population bigger than the rest of the Pro 12 combined

marty2086 wrote:

munkian wrote:If there is such a distinct lack of interest and investment by the Italian Rugby Union then whats the point in us trying to give it a kick up the arse ?

The WRU needs to sort out its own regions/clubs/development.

Who said theres a lack of interest or investment?

If its not being done right then guidance from those who have had success in the area is a good way to go.

The point in the Pro12/6Ns counterparts doing it, is that the improvement of Italian rugby improves the product which increases interest and value, the growth of the game in Italy has the same benefit especially as Italy has some of the worlds biggest and most prestigious brands and a population bigger than the rest of the Pro 12 combined

There was a huge lack of investment in Italian rugby for years. It's only now they have finally set up proper academies around the country to try produce some decent players for the Pro 12 sides. A lot is said about the size of Italy's population but the South of Italy is incredibly poor and the football teams in Seria A play in front of half empty stadiums and football will always be number one there. I really don't see much more coming from Italy in terms of crowds. I want them to stay but they'll have to improve on their own, every tier 2 nation would love to have the opportunities Italy have.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:There was a huge lack of investment in Italian rugby for years. It's only now they have finally set up proper academies around the country to try produce some decent players for the Pro 12 sides. A lot is said about the size of Italy's population but the South of Italy is incredibly poor and the football teams in Seria A play in front of half empty stadiums and football will always be number one there. I really don't see much more coming from Italy in terms of crowds. I want them to stay but they'll have to improve on their own, every tier 2 nation would love to have the opportunities  Italy have.

The money isn't in crowds but tv, football is also number 1 in France and England but look at the money it can bring in there, France also has some of the poorest areas in Western Europe.

Italy are losing ground with their tv deals, this is what will benefit everyone in the long term if that can be turned around. Yes bigger crowds will be great too but the big money is in tv as networks will pay more if they can get more viewers, sponsors will pay more to sponsor the competition and teams etc.

Its all speculative but based on what works elsewhere.

Looks like some people have been taking my advice, after their game with Treviso at the weekend Glasgow stuck around and both sides had scrummaging sessions together to help them for the run in

https://www.facebook.com/BenettonRugbyTreviso/videos/1219005064790870/

marty2086 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:There was a huge lack of investment in Italian rugby for years. It's only now they have finally set up proper academies around the country to try produce some decent players for the Pro 12 sides. A lot is said about the size of Italy's population but the South of Italy is incredibly poor and the football teams in Seria A play in front of half empty stadiums and football will always be number one there. I really don't see much more coming from Italy in terms of crowds. I want them to stay but they'll have to improve on their own, every tier 2 nation would love to have the opportunities  Italy have.

The money isn't in crowds but tv, football is also number 1 in France and England but look at the money it can bring in there, France also has some of the poorest areas in Western Europe.

Italy are losing ground with their tv deals, this is what will benefit everyone in the long term if that can be turned around. Yes bigger crowds will be great too but the big money is in tv as networks will pay more if they can get more viewers, sponsors will pay more to sponsor the competition and teams etc.

Its all speculative but based on what works elsewhere.

If they are only getting 2k at most through the gates, you can safely assume tv viewership isn't there. Full stadiums are very attractive to tv companies and sponsors.

I know it is a bit left wing, and the man is not all that respected on here, Paul Rees in the Guardian is reporting that Sky are very disappointed in the TV viewing figures and are considering not renewing their Pro12 viewing licence.

Rees is an arse, and the thought that SKY might actually invest much more into Pro12 would have him frothing.

His unsupported claim contradicts what Anayi has just told us.

wayne wrote:I know it is a bit left wing, and the man is not all that respected on here, Paul Rees in the Guardian is reporting that Sky are very disappointed in the TV viewing figures and are considering not renewing their Pro12 viewing licence.

How is the sport coverage left wing?

Munchkin wrote:Rees is an arse, and the thought that SKY might actually invest much more into Pro12 would have him frothing.

His unsupported claim contradicts what Anayi has just told us.

It also contradicts what Sky said over the summer, weren't they praising the Pro 12 and the final in particular for the viewing figures they brought in especially as it was higher than the AP.

marty2086 wrote:Looks like some people have been taking my advice, after their game with Treviso at the weekend Glasgow stuck around and both sides had scrummaging sessions together to help them for the run in

https://www.facebook.com/BenettonRugbyTreviso/videos/1219005064790870/

Not only this, but there was an announcement recently about the possibility of a club competition between Scottish and Italian sides below pro level; and I understand that there may be some co-operation / exchange / competition being looked at for academy level as well.

wayne wrote:I know it is a bit left wing, and the man is not all that respected on here, Paul Rees in the Guardian is reporting that Sky are very disappointed in the TV viewing figures and are considering not renewing their Pro12 viewing licence.

How can they be disappointed. They're not paying very much for it.

Its click bait rubbish.

The SRU has a halfway decent record of supporting lower nations - of course its self interested to some extent as they make good opposition for us - we should win but should get a competitive game. Scotland are the only tier 1 team to tour in the pacific for years for example.

TJ wrote:The SRU has a halfway decent record of supporting lower nations - of course its self interested to some extent as they make good opposition for us - we should win but should get a competitive game.  Scotland are the only tier 1 team to tour in the pacific for years for example.  

Its a glorified scouting tour

If only Matawalo and Nakawara were not tied to Fiji!

TJ wrote:The SRU has a halfway decent record of supporting lower nations - of course its self interested to some extent as they make good opposition for us - we should win but should get a competitive game.  Scotland are the only tier 1 team to tour in the pacific for years for example.  

Was that not more to do with not being able to get games elsewhere?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Shifty wrote:Yeah nice idea, but you can't really separate the Scottish and Italian teams they need derbies too!

I had the idea of a genuine Celtic league the other day, comprising of Celtic teams.

Wales
Dragons
Ospreys
Blues
Scarlets

England
London Welsh
London Scottish
London Irish
Cornish Pirates

Scotland
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Scottish Borders
Douglas RFC (Isle of Man)

Ireland
Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Connacht

Brittany (France)
Rennes
Guingamp
Nantes
Lorient

Regionals play home and away first up, then top 2, and bottom 2 go into separate divisions, but you don't double up on games from the first phase.  
Phase 1 = 6 games (local)
Phase 2 = 16 games (national)

It's a nice thought, but a Scottish borders team simply doesn't work. Too many tribal loyalties to the towns, Gala, Melrose, Kelso, Jed etc. That's why the border reavers are no more.

No. That is not the main reason.

The reason is that there is no town in the Borders with the population to support professional sport. Galashiels has a population of 14000 and Hawick is similar. The whole region which is very widespread has a population of only 109,000. I live in the Scottish Borders region in Peebles. It is far quicker to get to Edinburgh than Galashiels or Hawick.

Every other professional rugby team is a based in a large town. The smallest is probably Connacht based in Galway with a population of 75,000.