European rugby, the interest just isn't there

First topic message reminder :

I know I will get a bashing off some quarters on here, but sorry it has to be said, looking at the crowds for the two semi-finals on the weekend, it would seem the interest is not there. The aggregate figure for the two games was a paltry 38,968 people, there was more people than that for the Cardiff Blues V Leicester semi final a few years ago 44,212 turned up that day.

This proves that the greedy club owners have ruined a once prestigious competition, admired by thousands and getting better year on year. Where are all these new massive sponsorship deals ? Where is all this money we are supposed to be swimming in ? 

All I saw on the weekend was empty seats, the future of the European club competition for me looks bleak, dwindling crowds, the same teams ALL the time in the knockout stages, lack of interest, the French already consider their own league a priority, for me something drastic needs to be done as it would seem the writing is on the wall for one of our favourite club competitions, it's sad, as it's been well and truly ruined by the greedy club owners.

Take a read of some of these, you might find them interesting:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/04/25/empty-seats-as-saracens-and-racing-92-won-through-must-be-a-wake/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/much-better-europe-champions-cup-11238143

SecretFly wrote:...Seriously though, no I'm not so sure it'll be ever the same again....

If by "the same", you mean a competition that English and French teams served notice on, then it's clear you are right. The old Heineken Cup wasn't workable for them, so "the same" wasn't on the table a long time ago.

It was interesting to see Pot Hale earlier in this thread musing about how the new cup is currently providing relatively little revenue to the Irish teams by comparison with other sources. He suggested that, should this continue, they would look to give greater priority to the Pro12 competition.

That, of course, is the exactly the same way the English and French teams thought about the old cup

One of the key reasons the clubs wanted more control, is because the commercial side of the cup was being poorly run. We now know there was a lot more TV revenue available to the degree that, whatever else may be wrong with rounding up sponsors, and selling tickets, we are already at a higher mark than before. Which is a pretty damning indictment of the old set-up.

I don't think the fears being expressed in this thread are unwarranted. It's very possible that the new set-up fails to become a major centrepiece for the sport in Europe. The club owners who said it would be, will have egg on their faces, but they won't flog a dead horse: they'll dump it.

We've got to be honest here. On many counts, rugby is growing in popularity, and reaching new territory. On the other hand, we are still a very unbalanced proposition as a professional sport. Fiji, Samoa and Tonga have a lot of rugby talent but no domestic market. Australia is a two-time World Champion but their union seems to operate on the verge of bankruptcy. Japan has a lot of financial clout but rugby remains a niche sport that doesn't draw big crowds or much media coverage. The All Blacks are the greatest team, and one of the top brands, but the NZRU wants everyone to give them more money because there's a physical limit to what they can generate themselves.

The club, regional and provincial picture seems all over the place. Super Rugby has expanded but, in the short term, might have bitten off more than it can chew. Opinions of the Pro12 on this forum, seem to range from seeing it as a totally busted flush, to a league which is just falling short of getting it right. The English Premiership might be financially stronger in general but there remain a whole host of unresolved issues at club level. Not least, the status of the Championship, which has struggled badly this year as a league. The Top 14 is a lucrative league but the time and resources it monopolizes leave little room for other rugby priorities to get a look-in.

There's a lot of money kicking around, yet it is focused on very specific parts of the schedule. The World Cup, Six Nations, Lions Tour, Rugby Championship and the Autumn Internationals are among the biggest revenue generators so everyone has been afraid to mess with them. And yet it might well be that, taken together, they are blocking the successful development of our sport because the calendar looks a shambles. Thank goodness it seems World Rugby is at last looking at the Six Nations timing. I agree with the Rugby Players Association when they say that the global structure needs to be broken for changes to be made. Not everything can be sacrosanct.

It makes absolutely no sense for northern hemisphere leagues to lose their players to Test duty while still playing competitive matches. The two top finishers in the English premiership, Exeter and Saracens, played a fixture with none of their international players. Then Saracens had a match against third placed Wasps the following week under similar constraints. That's daft.

To go back to the old Heineken Cup: it provided some great times but it failed on one key count. It didn't satisfy the demands of all its stakeholders, and that's a crucial condition for all parts of the global calendar. If the current competition doesn't work then it'll be for the same reason.

I would add to Rugby Fans summary that the general irish wailing on this topic is simply not justified. Yes automatic entry and larger funding from competing against English and French clubs has been stopped which merits comment but that status quo was never going to continue indefinitely.

The Union elite sides have offered something different for club sides to compete against and their nationalist support has upped the attendance at stadia and highlighted smaller club support. If the competition fails to deliver commercial returns, despite the high playing standards on the pitch, then that in my view would not be the end of the world and would force unions to play a longer game and focus on their League structure - with greater access for fans throughout the season rather than an easier dash for cash on a knockout competition.

Rugby Fan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:...Seriously though, no I'm not so sure it'll be ever the same again....

If by "the same", you mean a competition that English and French teams served notice on, then it's clear you are right. The old Heineken Cup wasn't workable for them, so "the same" wasn't on the table a long time ago.

It was interesting to see Pot Hale earlier in this thread musing about how the new cup is currently providing relatively little revenue to the Irish teams by comparison with other sources. He suggested that, should this continue, they would look to give greater priority to the Pro12 competition.

That, of course, is the exactly the same way the English and French teams thought about the old cup

One of the key reasons the clubs wanted more control, is because the commercial side of the cup was being poorly run. We now know there was a lot more TV revenue available to the degree that, whatever else may be wrong with rounding up sponsors, and selling tickets, we are already at a higher mark than before. Which is a pretty damning indictment of the old set-up.

I don't think the fears being expressed in this thread are unwarranted. It's very possible that the new set-up fails to become a major centrepiece for the sport in Europe. The club owners who said it would be, will have egg on their faces, but they won't flog a dead horse: they'll dump it.

To go back to the old Heineken Cup: it provided some great times but it failed on one key count. It didn't satisfy the demands of all its stakeholders, and that's a crucial condition for all parts of the global calendar. If the current competition doesn't work then it'll be for the same reason.

Hmmm.  You know what 'the same again' meant there, Rugby Fan.   It was a response to what Quins said would be a reversal of 'mood' within Irish circles if an Irish side gets to the play off stages next season.  I answered in the negative.  

No I don't think so.  Memories of the mutiny will be fresh for years.  Some guy a while back said that people outside Ireland don't realise how deeply that idea of 'treachery' is felt.... and in a sense I'm realising how right he is.  It was a major sour-tasting power battle that gave us an insight into the personalities of the 'stakeholders' we're dealing with.  And the impression of them presents a lasting effect.  

Private men out for private stockmarket gains, and using the sport of rugby to do so.  Nothing else works.  These are private companies, run by private business men looking for massive profit returns on investments - winning is just a symptom; but profit for themselves is the real goal.  
We all should be delighted that's who is now running rugby in Europe?  

Grand.  Insider traders, telling each other which horse to back this or that year, when to invest here or there, informing their investor pals when rules will be changing this way and that, wink wink, nod nod.... you look after me and I'll look after you....  And I'm not even calling it match fixing.  It has nothing to do with games being played - but it's back scratching behind the scenes, circular investing amongst the suits involved in sponsorship, broadcasting and ownership.

So paint your innocent picture of Privately run Rugby Clubs just wanting a fair crack of the whip if that's what you genuinely believe.  I've now heard their words in print and seen their moves in action, and I don't believe any of it is designed for any other purpose than massive profits on investments made - not for the clubs and their fans but for the silk lining of the owners' private pockets.

On the bit about Irish Provinces going back to concentrate on Pro12 based on how little they might get out of Europe? - well yes, that was certainly the long-view intention of the new 'owners'.

On the idea that the commercial side of the HC was poorly run and now is being run like clockwork?  I think the argument against that belief is the very reason for this thread?

And on that highlighted bit.  Yes, perfectly correct.  If the new Private Club owner cartel of European Rugby find the new system isn't paying its way - they'll just change the rules again until it's even more in their favour. They'll rig the Roulette wheel, won't they. It's their casino.  

And the rest of us are really meant to smile and admit it's all for the best?   That's the crazy bit. This is for your guys' benefit just as much as the French and English super-owners'. Oh Yeah....yeah....... right...............

Mutiny would suggest the Irish were the guys in control of it all.

What drivel.

There was no mutiny - PRL and the French left the competition as is their right.
Stockmarket gains - which clubs trade on the market? Who is in rugby to make a profit?

It's funny how none of these moans erupted when the game was controlled by the blazers, for the gravy trainers.

Wake up Ireland, sell off pro rugby and join the 21st century.

PhilBB wrote:What drivel.

There was no mutiny - PRL and the French left the competition as is their right.
Stockmarket gains - which clubs trade on the market? Who is in rugby to make a profit?

It's funny how none of these moans erupted when the game was controlled by the blazers, for the gravy trainers.

Wake up Ireland, sell off pro rugby and join the 21st century.

Got to love broken records

marty2086 wrote:
Got to love broken records

Doesn't make them any less right.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Mutiny would suggest the Irish were the guys in control of it all.

Mutiny is Mutiny... the old Captain was killed and a new guy took over the role. Nothing to do with Ireland. Old Captain got it in the gut....

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Got to love broken records

Doesn't make them any less right.

Which in turn doesn't mean its wrong

For those of us in the real world, the same model can't work across the board in any business. See the current BBC debate as an example or rugby across the world, maybe any other sector in business even and you'll see a variety of models and approaches

Guess what we get you don't like the Irish, no need to keep telling us

marty2086 wrote:
Which in turn doesn't mean its wrong

For those of us in the real world, the same model can't work across the board in any business. See the current BBC debate as an example or rugby across the world, maybe any other sector in business even and you'll see a variety of models and approaches

Guess what we get you don't like the Irish, no need to keep telling us

The final sentence is moronic. I dislike the Irish rugby model, which is what you should have written.

As soon as Ireland is awarded the 2023 Rugby World Cup, the better. That way we can all move on with modernising rugby.

PhilBB wrote:What drivel.

There was no mutiny - PRL and the French left the competition as is their right.
Stockmarket gains - which clubs trade on the market? Who is in rugby to make a profit?

It's funny how none of these moans erupted when the game was controlled by the blazers, for the gravy trainers.

Wake up Ireland, sell off pro rugby and join the 21st century.

You're so naïve, PhilBB, which is strange for a guy that likes to quote the financial times stuff so much in your arguments. 

I'm right - you're wrong.  Find me the private investment portfolios of many of the owners involved in PRL and the LNR - find me where their interests were going and coming from in the lead up to the Mutiny.   I'd say they'd be interesting reading.   Lots of folks might be interested...not Blatter though, he's retired.

SecretFly wrote:

You're so naïve, PhilBB, which is strange for a guy that likes to quote the financial times stuff so much in your arguments. 

I'm right - you're wrong.  Find me the private investment portfolios of many of the owners involved in PRL and the LNR - find me where their interests were going and coming from in the lead up to the Mutiny.   I'd say they'd be interesting reading.   Lots of folks might be interested...not Blatter though, he's retired.

Crikey.

You're right, the value of Domino's, Atlantic Properties, Liberty Properties and some South African real estate was dependent upon a new European Rugby Competition.

How could I have missed it?

Yeah Secret you've hit the nail on the head. You were happy that you were getting the best deal, not so much now it's almost fair.

PhilBB wrote:


The final sentence is moronic. I dislike the Irish rugby model.

Why should you dislike it? If it's old, creaking and antiquated, then why should a guy who lives in and supports Welsh Regional rugby care. Surely that's an advantage. The New Rugby destroying the old brand? The silk suits destroying the blazers?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Which in turn doesn't mean its wrong

For those of us in the real world, the same model can't work across the board in any business. See the current BBC debate as an example or rugby across the world, maybe any other sector in business even and you'll see a variety of models and approaches

Guess what we get you don't like the Irish, no need to keep telling us

The final sentence is moronic. I dislike the Irish rugby model, which is what you should have written.

As soon as Ireland is awarded the 2023 Rugby World Cup, the better. That way we can all move on with modernising rugby.

Given your constant abuse and focus on the Irish despite the Scottish, Kiwi and other models being the same then its not moronic its an opinion based on your statements

And how does the RWC going to Ireland modernise rugby?

SecretFly wrote:
Why should you dislike it?  If it's old, creaking and antiquated, then why should a guy who lives in and supports Welsh Regional rugby care.  Surely that's an advantage.  The New Rugby destroying the old brand?  The silk suits destroying the blazers?

I dislike it as it is a handbrake on British Rugby.

Without it, negotiating a B&I league to compete with the French will be (deliberate tense used) much easier.

Phil Phil Phil. You crazy!

marty2086 wrote:
Given your constant abuse and focus on the Irish despite the Scottish, Kiwi and other models being the same then its not moronic its an opinion based on your statements

And how does the RWC going to Ireland modernise rugby?

The Kiwi model is not the same at all. They sold off their franchises whilst maintaining the player contracts. It is nowhere near the same as the Irish model.

I raised my dislike of the Scottish model in a thread to have a mod reply with 'it's all we've got so take it elsewhere'.

Once WR award the IRFU the RWC (and its nigh on a done deal, even GAA are involved), their ability to play the blazer game goes.

Honestly chaps, all that you moan about now is coming your way and, of course, it will make at least Leinster significantly stronger.

Munster, on the other hand, are drowning in debt.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah Secret you've hit the nail on the head. You were happy that you were getting the best deal, not so much now it's almost fair.

Oh God. We only have One Automatic Entry 7 1/2 - One! England have how many Autos? And now it's a fairer contest than before? We lost two of our auto entries. Thanks European Rugby.

It's what it is. The PRL and LNR have done an aggressive take-over. The deal is sealed. The best part of it is reserved for themselves. They're not idiots. They care nothing about the other guys on the edges. So be it. This is a discussion. The Deal is already done.

Three leagues.

The Pro12 still gets more auto entries than the Aviva and Top 14.

It's almost fair, but not quite yet.

Fairly sure that the Pro 12 still have more than 1 auto entry Fly! The deal is done though like you said.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Why should you dislike it?  If it's old, creaking and antiquated, then why should a guy who lives in and supports Welsh Regional rugby care.  Surely that's an advantage.  The New Rugby destroying the old brand?  The silk suits destroying the blazers?

I dislike it as it is a handbrake on British Rugby.

We're not British Rugby. Look after your own show, fight your own battles. Have your guys the lungs to battle on your own? You certainly tried to a few years ago. Now we're needed? That's cute It's nice being liked for a change.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fairly sure that the Pro 12 still have more than 1 auto entry Fly! The deal is done though like you said.

You think I care about the Welsh, Scottish and Italian element? I'm the guy with the grenade, remember. The Pan Nationalist Front!

SecretFly wrote:

We're not British Rugby.  Look after your own show, fight your own battles.  Have your guys the lungs to battle on your own?  You certainly tried to a few years ago.  Now we're needed?  That's cute  It's nice being liked for a change.

I wish others had your attitude, I really do.

Because, if they did, your lot would have only three other teams to play each season.

And the rest of the pro 12 goes under.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Given your constant abuse and focus on the Irish despite the Scottish, Kiwi and other models being the same then its not moronic its an opinion based on your statements

And how does the RWC going to Ireland modernise rugby?

The Kiwi model is not the same at all. They sold off their franchises whilst maintaining the player contracts. It is nowhere near the same as the Irish model.

I raised my dislike of the Scottish model in a thread to have a mod reply with 'it's all we've got so take it elsewhere'.

Once WR award the IRFU the RWC (and its nigh on a done deal, even GAA are involved), their ability to play the blazer game goes.

Honestly chaps, all that you moan about now is coming your way and, of course, it will make at least Leinster significantly stronger.

Munster, on the other hand, are drowning in debt.

No actually Phil the Unions still retain control of all the Kiwi teams, while the name Franchise is used they are more licensed organisations though each have different setups with mixes of unions and private operators running the day to day operations

So the blazers as you call they bring the world cup and they lose control? You do realise the GAA is made up of blazers?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

We're not British Rugby.  Look after your own show, fight your own battles.  Have your guys the lungs to battle on your own?  You certainly tried to a few years ago.  Now we're needed?  That's cute  It's nice being liked for a change.

I wish others had your attitude, I really do.

Because, if they did, your lot would have only three other teams to play each season.

Of course you really do.  
I'm one of the few who don't listen to your 'reasoning' crap because it's all just a smokescreen.  

You wish we didn't exist.  We're a nightmare to your sensibilities.  You have hot sweats about us at night.  Why should I humour you by pretending you care about the survival of all of us together in this little cosy thing called the B&I League - where our influence would be reduced even more   Talk about being a minor partner!!!  

"Shut up and obey Bastards!  We now rule.... us Brits!  signed Phil!"

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the rest of the pro 12 goes under.

Not at all. We go off to play the English.

Why would the English want to prop up the Pro 12 rejects? Baffling.

marty2086 wrote:
No actually Phil the Unions still retain control of all the Kiwi teams, while the name Franchise is used they are more licensed organisations though each have different setups with mixes of unions and private operators running the day to day operations

So the blazers as you call they bring the world cup and they lose control? You do realise the GAA is made up of blazers?

Not control, just control of the players. Do some research.

Why are you mentioning the GAA? I only mentioned them as their assets will need to be used as the IRFU can't host it alone.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would the English want to prop up the Pro 12 rejects? Baffling.

Oh, you want to play that stupid game again.

SecretFly wrote:

You wish we didn't exist.  We're a nightmare to your sensibilities.  You have hot sweats about us at night.  Why should I humour you by pretending you care about the survival of all of us together in this little cosy thing called the B&I League - where our influence would be reduced even more   Talk about being a minor partner!!!  

"Shut up and obey Bastards!  We now rule.... us Brits!  signed Phil!"

Yeah, that combined with the stuff about profits in rugby should be all I need to know.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would the English want to prop up the Pro 12 rejects? Baffling.

Oh, you want to play that stupid game again.

Yeah a stupid game where I say 'why would the English want that'. You reply along the lines of you're just scared it will happen. What have I to be scared of and you don't reply.

And if you want the Wlesh to have a say in running the comp trying to get the English clubs to have your best interetsts at heart ain't the way of doing it!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would the English want to prop up the Pro 12 rejects? Baffling.

Oh, you want to play that stupid game again.

Yeah a stupid game where I say 'why would the English want that'. You reply along the lines of you're just scared it will happen. What have I to be scared of and you don't reply.

What an odd recollection you have.

The stupid game is 'the English won't want that' & I reply with 'yes, unless it makes them more money'.

And that's that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And if you want the Wlesh to have a say in running the comp trying to get the English clubs to have your best interetsts at heart ain't the way of doing it!

Really? Walk me through the shareholding of EPCR in that case.

Thanks.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
No actually Phil the Unions still retain control of all the Kiwi teams, while the name Franchise is used they are more licensed organisations though each have different setups with mixes of unions and private operators running the day to day operations

So the blazers as you call they bring the world cup and they lose control? You do realise the GAA is made up of blazers?

Not control, just control of the players. Do some research.

Why are you mentioning the GAA? I only mentioned them as their assets will need to be used as the IRFU can't host it alone.

Maybe you should follow your own advice, the contracts are union owned and controlled, the assets are union owned, the licenses are union owned but they have no control?

The IRFU won't lose control of rugby in Ireland because of the RWC, you forget they used Croke Park for years already and lost no control. I don't think you understand your own reasoning

So you'd want the English to give up some of their power? Why would they do that Phil? How much extra money would need to be generated for the English to get more? And would they be happy to then be increasing the strength of the other clubs?

You're saying that I should be scared because the English would make more money? Really? If thats true, and I doubt it would be, why would that scare me?

marty2086 wrote:
Maybe you should follow your own advice, the contracts are union owned and controlled, the assets are union owned, the licenses are union owned but they have no control?

The IRFU won't lose control of rugby in Ireland because of the RWC, you forget they used Croke Park for years already and lost no control. I don't think you understand your own reasoning

You've conflated using Croke Park with losing control. What an odd thing to do.

Browne has already started the process of whining publicly that he can't sell off the provinces. We'll see.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you'd want the English to give up some of their power? Why would they do that Phil? How much extra money would need to be generated for the English to get more? And would they be happy to then be increasing the strength of the other clubs?

You're saying that I should be scared because the English would make more money? Really? If thats true, and I doubt it would be, why would that scare me?

I have no idea why you are mentioning being scared.

SecretFly wrote:....
Grand.  Insider traders, telling each other which horse to back this or that year, when to invest here or there, informing their investor pals when rules will be changing this way and that, wink wink, nod nod.... you look after me and I'll look after you....  And I'm not even calling it match fixing.  It has nothing to do with games being played - but it's back scratching behind the scenes, circular investing amongst the suits involved in sponsorship, broadcasting and ownership.

So paint your innocent picture of Privately run Rugby Clubs just wanting a fair crack of the whip if that's what you genuinely believe.  I've now heard their words in print and seen their moves in action, and I don't believe any of it is designed for any other purpose than massive profits on investments made - not for the clubs and their fans but for the silk lining of the owners' private pockets.
.....

Ah for the good old days doing business with a nod and a wink and the passing of a brown envelope over a few pints of black stuff...

Actually think that Rugby Fan's comments are very useful. In summary despite the oft heard complaints here the French and English didn't like the status quo (as in a huge part of the competition wasn't happy) so forced change. Its possible the changes have not worked and that will lead to more changes.

Hopefully eventually we will end up with something that does work and is well run. It may not be happening now but neither was the previous version, not for some major stakeholders anyway.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Maybe you should follow your own advice, the contracts are union owned and controlled, the assets are union owned, the licenses are union owned but they have no control?

The IRFU won't lose control of rugby in Ireland because of the RWC, you forget they used Croke Park for years already and lost no control. I don't think you understand your own reasoning

You've conflated using Croke Park with losing control. What an odd thing to do.

Browne has already started the process of whining publicly that he can't sell off the provinces. We'll see.

'I only mentioned them as their assets will need to be used as the IRFU can't host it alone'

They couldn't host 6 Nations games alone yet lost no control, so you keep trying to figure out what point you are trying to make

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you'd want the English to give up some of their power? Why would they do that Phil? How much extra money would need to be generated for the English to get more? And would they be happy to then be increasing the strength of the other clubs?

You're saying that I should be scared because the English would make more money? Really? If thats true, and I doubt it would be, why would that scare me?

I have no idea why you are mentioning being scared.

Last time this came up you said I was scared about the Welsh actually getting into some sort of league with the English. When pressed on this you disappeared.

Rugby Fan wrote:
One of the key reasons the clubs wanted more control, is because the commercial side of the cup was being poorly run. We now know there was a lot more TV revenue available to the degree that, whatever else may be wrong with rounding up sponsors, and selling tickets, we are already at a higher mark than before. Which is a pretty damning indictment of the old set-up.

The details of the new tv deal were not published, so how do you know what they are? You are not fooling anyone either by claiming that the tv deal (negotiated in 2013) is better than the ERC media deal negotiated in 2008 would be better

As for the deal itself -  all we know is that the PRO 12 teams were guaranteed 20m per year to participate in this competition. We have yet to see published accounts, but considering the lack of sponsors, it can't be going too well.

I don't think the fears being expressed in this thread are unwarranted. It's very possible that the new set-up fails to become a major centrepiece for the sport in Europe. The club owners who said it would be, will have egg on their faces, but they won't flog a dead horse: they'll dump it.

The owners don't give a toss. They want control of rugby union so that they can get their hands on the real money - international rugby.

We've got to be honest here. On many counts, rugby is growing in popularity, and reaching new territory. On the other hand, we are still a very unbalanced proposition as a professional sport. Fiji, Samoa and Tonga have a lot of rugby talent but no domestic market. Australia is a two-time World Champion but their union seems to operate on the verge of bankruptcy. Japan has a lot of financial clout but rugby remains a niche sport that doesn't draw big crowds or much media coverage. The All Blacks are the greatest team, and one of the top brands, but the NZRU wants everyone to give them more money because there's a physical limit to what they can generate themselves.[/quote]

The Kiwis just want a return on their investment. They fill stadia around the world and are not getting anything out of it.

The club, regional and provincial picture seems all over the place. Super Rugby has expanded but, in the short term, might have bitten off more than it can chew. Opinions of the Pro12 on this forum, seem to range from seeing it as a totally busted flush, to a league which is just falling short of getting it right. The English Premiership might be financially stronger in general but there remain a whole host of unresolved issues at club level. Not least, the status of the Championship, which has struggled badly this year as a league. The Top 14 is a lucrative league but the time and resources it monopolizes leave little room for other rugby priorities to get a look-in.

Perfidious albion messed with the heads of the Welsh and the pockets of the Scots and screwed the PRO12 as a league.

There's a lot of money kicking around, yet it is focused on very specific parts of the schedule. The World Cup, Six Nations, Lions Tour, Rugby Championship and the Autumn Internationals are among the biggest revenue generators so everyone has been afraid to mess with them. And yet it might well be that, taken together, they are blocking the successful development of our sport because the calendar looks a shambles. Thank goodness it seems World Rugby is at last looking at the Six Nations timing. I agree with the Rugby Players Association when they say that the global structure needs to be broken for changes to be made. Not everything can be sacrosanct.

How are these competitions (6Ns, Lions etc) blocking the successful development of rugby? They are the competitions that developed the interest in the first place. No one wants to watch Saracens v Racing except their few fans - everyone is interested in 6Ns. And yet you guys think the blazers don't know how to run a competition    

6Ns will not be changing - and Beaumont knows it as chair of the 6Ns -  they have signed a tv deal up to 2022 and if you think UTV / BBC etc are going to change that so that they will end up competing with the run-in of the Premiership, you are deluded.

It makes absolutely no sense for northern hemisphere leagues to lose their players to Test duty while still playing competitive matches. The two top finishers in the English premiership, Exeter and Saracens, played a fixture with none of their international players. Then Saracens had a match against third placed Wasps the following week under similar constraints. That's daft.

Why don't the PRL drop the Welsh Cup thing and take a break like the football boys do in the middle of the season.  

To go back to the old Heineken Cup: it provided some great times but it failed on one key count. It didn't satisfy the demands of all its stakeholders, and that's a crucial condition for all parts of the global calendar. If the current competition doesn't work then it'll be for the same reason.

Pity they had to destroy the competition then and not change it. As far as I can recall, all the requests of the stakeholders were granted. The problem was McCafferty had signed away the rights to PRL's games to BT without the permission of the RFU.

marty2086 wrote:
They couldn't host 6 Nations games alone yet lost no control, so you keep trying to figure out what point you are trying to make

I've already explained that your conflation was odd.

I remember now your inability to comprehend basic English, making written interaction with you utterly pointless.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
No actually Phil the Unions still retain control of all the Kiwi teams, while the name Franchise is used they are more licensed organisations though each have different setups with mixes of unions and private operators running the day to day operations

So the blazers as you call they bring the world cup and they lose control? You do realise the GAA is made up of blazers?

Not control, just control of the players. Do some research.

Why are you mentioning the GAA? I only mentioned them as their assets will need to be used as the IRFU can't host it alone.

You do realise that in the recent world cup, the RFU only used one of their own assets - Twickenham. If the IRFU win the bid, we'll be using at least 3 of our own assets.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Last time this came up you said I was scared about the Welsh actually getting into some sort of league with the English. When pressed on this you disappeared.

As I've explained before - there's a nice twitter button next to my posts. Click on that as I don't often use this board.

I thought that we'd danced to the end of this silly game before. In fact, we have.

Sin é wrote:
You do realise that in the recent world cup, the RFU only used one of their own assets - Twickenham. If the IRFU win the bid, we'll be using at least 3 of our own assets.

Yes.

What's your point?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
They couldn't host 6 Nations games alone yet lost no control, so you keep trying to figure out what point you are trying to make

I've already explained that your conflation was odd.

I remember now your inability to comprehend basic English, making written interaction with you utterly pointless.

No you haven't explained anything, you have said that having to use other people assets for an event will lose them control without actually offering any logic beyond that.

This is despite the fact that they have used GAA assets previously, they co-own the Aviva with the FAI, regularly work with the governments on both sides of the border but its me that fails to comprehend it all

I like how you failed to address the NZ issue again, wouldn't be like you when your in the wrong

marty2086 wrote:
No you haven't explained anything, you have said that having to use other people assets for an event will lose them control

No, I didn't.