Alex Goode - Premiership player of the year

A little surprising, although he's had a good season.

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/goode-named-premiership-player-of-the-season/

I'm a little confused with this statement:

"Alex’s explosive pace, quick feet, game management, kicking game and exceptional distribution skills have been the platform for a number of Saracens’ victories this season.

What??

In tests he is the quickest over 10m from a standing start at Sarries.

They meant to type Andy?

I assume the rest of the player run backwards?

Think George Smith is a bit unfortunate but I think Alex Goode has had an excellent season.

Alex Goode was man of the match at least twice - vs LI and Quins.

Wasn't he vs Worcester too?

Londontiger very interesting, didn't know that.

The following was named the AP Dream Team at the same awards dinner. Charles Piutau at 12!!

15. Alex Goode - Saracens
14. Jack Nowell - Exeter Chiefs
13. Elliot Daly - Wasps
12. Charles Piutau - Wasps
11. Telusa Veainu - Leicester Tigers
10. Gareth Steenson - Exeter Chiefs
9. Francois Hougaard - Worcester Warriors
1. Mako Vunipola - Saracens
2. Mike Haywood - Northampton Saints
3. Vadim Cobîlas - Sale Sharks
4. Maro Itoje - Saracens
5. George Kruis - Saracens
6. Teimana Harrison - Northampton Saints
7. George Smith - Wasps
8. Billy Vunipola - Saracens

Suppose a bit depends on how you view the award. Is it the best performances over the year or the best in the prem. I rate Vunipola as the best 8 currently but Waldrom in the prem (due to internationals) may have stolen in for me. Similar for a few other players.

no 7 & 1/2 to be fair you're probably right about Waldrom and others but then again the problem with is if you went with the premiership stats that were put on another thread, the likes of Newcastle and Worcester would dominate because they play more games.

Some of these guys in this list have played less games but have been influential.

Think it's fair that the top 5 dominate though.

Only Hougaard and Cobilas outside that.

Saracens - 5
Wasps - 3
Exeter -2
Saints -2
Leicester- 1
Worcester - 1
Sale - 1

A stat I would be very interested in is how many MOTMs each player got. Of course that's not always a fair reflection of someone's performance but would be interesting.

Really surprised Sean Robinson didn't make the team.

There's the problem beshocked, are we looking for consistency across the whole season or eye catching cameos?

no 7 & 1/2 it's difficult but I think influencing a match and team is important.

Sean Robinson might have been an excellent workhorse for Newcastle but Itoje and Kruis has been much more influential than Robinson for both club and country.

During the international window, Saracens beat Bath because Itoje put in a big match winning performance. During the same IW, Goode put in a big match winning performance vs LI - this was without full strength teams so it wasn't just simply benefitting from being in a team which steamrollers everyone.

Saracens strength in depth is fantastic as we all know. My best players from the prem would still be quite different from my premiership team of the year.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Really surprised Sean Robinson didn't make the team.

Why he has played well but not in Itoje or Kruis class.

no 7 & 1/2 I actually think that without the England contingent and Taylor Saracens played like a team 8th/9th in the league not first during the IW.

Hence 3 losses and a draw. Including that hammering by Wasps. Saracens still had good players that day but were taken apart, Saracens have been a completely different team at full strength. Lucky with injuries admittedly or just getting injuries in the right positions - e.g. losing George is no big deal when your other hooker is Brits.

I think the strength of the Saracens first team has gone up but the depth hasn't. It's why getting just one player like Goode or Itoje back from England was such a boost.

It's why I think both players are in the team.

Hamilton isn't in the same class as Kruis or Itoje, huge drop in quality now if either is missing. Same with some other positions.

Completely outplayed Itoje at our place.

I'll side step the obvious money related matter! Just think that this sort of thing should ignore the players who are internationals or miss a large chunk due to injury, they simply don't play enough.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Completely outplayed Itoje at our place.

Still coming out with that. Newcastle got taken apart. 38-3.

Robinson did not sufficiently influence the game to make much difference.

That's what you want from your players surely? To influence a game positively?

no 7 & 1/2 the problem with that is that you would basically be handing most of the awards to the bottom teams.

The best teams generally do have the best performing players, it's why they are doing the best. Not always of course but generally.

As for money, with the splashing of the cash going on at the moment not sure anyone can really point fingers now.

Because 1 man change a result on his own

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Because 1 man change a result on his own

I've seen Itoje do it. I've seen Goode do it. Both this season. Of course they aren't the only two either.

Are you telling me you've never seen a player put in a hugely influential display which turned a likely loss into victory?

Like I said beshocked if we label the team as the best performing in the Prem it would have different players than the best players in the prem. You'd be discounting a lot due to internationals, and rewarding the guys who've actually done it in the comp. There's some very good players in average teams of course.

beshocked wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Because 1 man change a result on his own

I've seen Itoje do it. I've seen Goode do it. Both this season. Of course they aren't the only two either.

Are you telling me you've never seen a player put in a hugely influential display which turned a likely loss into victory?

Of course but that's not your saying.

You're saying that a player from a losing team can't outplay one from a winning team, that's idiotic.

no 7 & 1/2 depends how you measure performances. Is it purely statistical? E.g. player X makes most tackles, let's get him on the list.

Surely not. Ksevic made most turnovers but would you say he's been as influential as Smith? I wouldn't. I think Smith has been a huge leader for Wasps and help them get to where they are. Whereas Ksevic hasn't done the same for Gloucester despite having a pretty good season.

Now I personally agree with you that Waldrom should probably be there instead of Billy but I wouldn't change the whole team.

Sgt Pooly it's debatable whether Robinson did outplay Itoje. I don't think he did at all. Of course a player can outplay the opposition on the losing side but they need to stand out. I don't think Robinson did. He was just one of 23 Newcastle players overwhelmed by the Sarries juggernaut. A juggernaut that Itoje is part of. Itoje has been more influential than Robinson for club and country - not even you could argue with that.

I'd never do it on stats personally as they can be so misleading.

Robinson did outplay Itoje...you've previously admitted to not even seeing the game.

I am reasonably happy with Kruis and Itoje - even if they have started just 11 & 10 AP matches. Kruis was easily the best AP lock in the first half of the season, while Itoje has been the standout in the spring.

Really struggle with both Vunipola boys in the team. Billy has been much better in Euro and for England, in the AP he has at times been off colour. Then throw in just 7 starts and surely Waldrom should be in. Mako has been much better, but with 8 starts has he really featured enough. As said by someone else this was meant to be the best performers in the AP.

I also feel they have shoehorned players into unfamiliar positions just so they make the team - notably Charles P at 12 and Harrison at 6.

Finally, while I can see why Hougaard was selected as he was instrumental in Wuss's good run, he played barely a handful of games. Robson was for me better across much more of the season.

Sgt Pooly I did watch the game so I don't know what you're talking about. I saw it on TV so I probably had a better view than you did if you watched it at the ground.

Londontiger agree about Robson but I guess the selectors felt that there needed to be one representative from one of the lower ranked teams.

Maybe got the Piutau's mixed up.

If it went on MotM awards, Harrison would have it by a mile. He was the only one that kept Saints in the hunt for a large pat of the season.

Saw Alex play at Sixways. He was sensational. He does not look quick, but his vision, decision making and execution was sublime.
He would have my vote (If I had one).
He should surely start for England. He is pure class and is incredibly consistent.

Deserved AP award but I'd still never have him in an England shirt. There are qualities required at international level that he is missing, that people like Harrison for example, aren't.

Harrison? A player who is unproven at international level.... let's see what he can do first.

What Harrison has to do with Goode I don't know, but I'd far rather give the unproven rookie a go than the proven average

Jury is out on Harrison but he looks a real talent. He seems to have an all round game, hopefully Jones can develop him.

As Bam says, we know Goode isn't good enough, why persist with him?

Goode does need to be given a chance vs Aus and in the AIs, to start and also come from the bench and see what he does. If he can't make an impact it's then we should be looking at alternatives. He does deserve a few games though, based on form.

I can't agree 7.5, his form has shown his ball playing, half breaks, the ability to secure the high ball and his kicking

Those have never been his weaknesses at international level, its his complete lack of the physical attributes needed to execute those strengths effectively at international level

He's basically Borthwick in a FB's body

I'd give Watson a go at FB if we're starting anyone else, I wouldn't be opposed to Brown taking the summer off and using Watson and another (Miller?) as the two FB options on tour

I don't really think despite 20 caps he's really been given a fair shake yet. I do think he deserves a few games to sink or swim. I'd be reluctant to move Watson from the wing given he looks settled and very good there for England.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jury is out on Harrison but he looks a real talent. He seems to have an all round game, hopefully Jones can develop him.

As Bam says, we know Goode isn't good enough, why persist with him?

Problem is for the haters, like Ashton, he is now demonstrably good enough to play for England - especially when you consider that the likes of Brown are out of (international) form. Ashton has more of an issue because the incumbents are well established and on a par with him.

I'd be more willing to persist with him if he'd even shown flashes of being able to play for England as he has done so capably for Saracens.

Other than one wet weather game against Ireland, I can't remember a single England game where I've thought Goode had put in a "good" performance.

Obviously that's highly subjective, but I really don't think he's up to scratch. I am willing to admit that I may see Alex Goode as Pooly does Tom Youngs though

As for Watson, I think his strengths have been chasing high balls, counter attacking and being the finisher. I think finishing is the only one of those that he'd struggle to get as many opportunities at as he does at wing, but he should get far more of the ball at FB, and I'd love to see him paired with Nowell and another flyer on the wing.

I'm not convinced on Wade/Ashton, so may be better off waiting for May to return, but definitely want to see Watson get a shot at FB either over the summer or the AIs

Goode got a run of 9 matches in the 12/13 season and, while it may be committing board heresy, I thought he looked pretty good then. Defensively we struggled with Wales at the end of that season, but that was far more to do with Brown on the wing than anything else.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't really think despite 20 caps he's really been given a fair shake yet. I do think he deserves a few games to sink or swim. I'd be reluctant to move Watson from the wing given he looks settled and very good there for England.

19 caps some as sub. And probably only 2 good performances, Ireland and NZ. Ireland was a game played under extreme conditions to which he adapted very well (from memory). NZ is different, but it was one of those days and its a long time ago.

I do think that had he been given the right opportunities he'd make a more than decent international fly half, but I have no confidence in him as an international full back.

We'll soon be able to tell whether he fits with jones style anyway. He wants a bosher at 12 by the looks, a more play making full back may be his requirement.

Player ratings for Goode, from Telegraph mainly, for that run of 9 starts:

Fiji - 9/10 (Highest in match)
Australia - 6/10 (Highest for an England player)
South Africa - 6/10 (Forwards scored well, but only Manu got more in backs)
New Zealand - 7/10 ("Very clever defensively and a threat in attack. Has had a very fine series. Ben Foden will find it difficult to oust him.")
Scotland - 6/10 ("Missed the tackle on Hogg in build up to Scotland try, and appeared ring-rusty after his lay-off.")
Ireland - 8/10 (Same from Guardian)
France - 7/10
Italy - 5/10 (He’s had a great tournament but for the first time errors crept in to his game and at times he lacked conviction)
Wales - 5/10 (One of the higher marks for England.

So two above par performances and two marginally below par with other five at the level you expect from an international. He is better now than he was then.

I think it's fair to say he is nearing the end of his chances but he does need a crack.

20 caps is more than enough time to gauge if a player can step up, Goode just hasn't.

He's been shown to have very little pace and be weak physically, these issues haven't been resolved.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think it's fair to say he is nearing the end of his chances but he does need a crack.

Maybe crack would help him run faster

Goode player of the year?

Was Austin Healy on the panel?

I can't really think of many times when he's been badly at fault playing for England. Pretty poor when he initially came on vs France a few years ago and didn't compete well against (Henshaw?? for ireland in the air a couple of years ago). He hasn't had a run of games for a fair while though. Granted if speed in the back 3 is an absolute we need to drop him, Brown and Nowell asap.

Pace is an absolute must in the back 3 imo, especially at the higher level. Going forward:

11. May
15. Watson
14. Ashton/Roko/Nowell

Agree Pooly.

Why would England go with a player that doesn't have all the physical elements needed for a top international fullback when someone like Watson is ready to fill the gap long term?

Goode is not and never will be quick enough vs top international opposition, the gaps he exploits at club level just aren't there.

I think Ashton has had far more chances and failed than Goode.Rokoduguni, not convinced he'll be more than a good prem winger and Nowell surely doesn't have the pace?

Again Watson is currently shining at wing.