Saxons v SA(A) 1st Test - 10th June (Friday Night)

First topic message reminder :

England Saxons match-day 23 for first game against South Africa ‘A’

15. Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
14. Alex Lewington (London Irish)
13. Nick Tompkins (Saracens)
12. Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby, 1 senior England cap)
11. Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby, 1 senior England cap)
10. Danny Cipriani (Wasps, 14 senior England caps)
9. Dan Robson (Wasps)

1. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs)
2. Tommy Taylor (Wasps, 1 senior England cap)
3. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 16 senior England caps)
4. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 23 senior England caps) (C)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
6. Donovan Armand (Exeter Chiefs)
7. Matt Kvesic (Gloucester, 3 senior England caps)
8. Sam Jones (Wasps)

Replacements:

16. George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons)
17. Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
18. Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps)
19. Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs)
20. Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
21. Micky Young (Newcastle Falcons)
22. Sam James (Sale Sharks)
23. Christian Wade (Wasps, 1 senior England cap)

South Africa ‘A’:

15 Leolin Zas
14 Travis Ismaiel
13 Francois Venter
12 Howard Mnisi
11 Courtnall Skosan
10 Garth April
9 Nic Groom

8 Nizaam Carr
7 Oupa Mohoje (c)
6 Sikhumbuzo Notshe
5 Stephan Lewies
4 JD Schickerling
3 Vincent Koch
2 Scarra Ntubeni
1 Thomas du Toit

Replacements: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Lizo Gqoboka, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Jean-Luc du Preez, 21 Piet van Zyl, 22 Francois Brummer, 23 Lukhanyo Am

I must admit I was surprised when I saw that Young was part of the squad ... surely we have better?

Micky Young very poor.

Otherwise the rest were pretty good.

Thought Robson and Tomkins were out danger men, note able that when Robson went off and as Tompkins tired we looked less threatening.

The ref was interesting to say the least.

Heaf wrote:I must admit I was surprised when I saw that Young was part of the squad ... surely we have better?

The resources are so thin this summer I wonder if maybe, right now, we don't for an A tour.

Well done to the Saxons, they were clinical on the counter and waited to punish every mistake of an overzealous you g bunch of South Africans.

Just a quick one, ref was really really poor in the second half, and i'm not sure how he was allowed to ref that game due the bias he had (intentional or not). he's great on the 7's circuit but needs to hone his craft a little more before the step to 15s.

For those complaining about SA kicking the ball out after 80 minutes and getting a lineout, this is one of the new laws that the SH have been trialing this year and is only allowed for penalties. England, Ireland and wales will be playing with this law in their series, i quite like it tbh.

Just a quick one, ref was really really poor in the second half, and i'm not sure how he was allowed to ref that game due the bias he had (intentional or not). he's great on the 7's circuit but needs to hone his craft a little more before the step to 15s.

For those complaining about SA kicking the ball out after 80 minutes and getting a lineout, this is one of the new laws that the SH have been trialing this year and is only allowed for penalties. England, Ireland and wales will be playing with this law in their series, i quite like it tbh.

trebellbobaggins wrote:

Heaf wrote:I must admit I was surprised when I saw that Young was part of the squad ... surely we have better?

The resources are so thin this summer I wonder if maybe, right now, we don't for an A tour.

would have been fine if Simpson weren't in 7s and we could have used Dickson/Wriggles instead but would seem to not be moving things forward

Surely it was no coincidence that when Young came on England went off the boil. The guy is utter turd and so slow at everything he does. Perhaps they are injured  but surely one of Harrison, Spencer, Cook,  Chudley,  Lewis, Braley, Dickson, Arr or even Bergamasco would have been better??

ChequeredJersey wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

Heaf wrote:I must admit I was surprised when I saw that Young was part of the squad ... surely we have better?

The resources are so thin this summer I wonder if maybe, right now, we don't for an A tour.

would have been fine if Simpson weren't in 7s and we could have used Dickson/Wriggles instead but would seem to not be moving things forward

Young is moving things forward? OK, I get your point but I do wonder if it would have been a better service to the other players to have a proper professional level 9 instead of Young. I only caught the end of the match. England looked reasonably OK?

Actually, looking at the list HongKongCherry produced, I'm astounded that Young was picked. At least Chudley, Spencer, Lewis would make more sense

I am Haley's new biggest fan. Taylor good around the park, Tompkins and Robson very good.

Home refs always favour the home side. It was always thus. Always hard to take though. Some really good performances though. The backline was brilliant. Mickey young has got a much more superior pass to Ben Youngs.

belovedfrosties wrote:Just a quick one, ref was really really poor in the second half, and i'm not sure how he was allowed to ref that game due the bias he had (intentional or not).  he's great on the 7's circuit but needs to hone his craft a little more before the step to 15s.

For those complaining about SA kicking the ball out after 80 minutes and getting a lineout, this is one of the new laws that the SH have been trialing this year and is only allowed for penalties.  England, Ireland and wales will be playing with this law in their series, i quite like it tbh.

But they were playing to the 'old rules' according to the ref earlier when SA got a penalty at the end of the first half.  I think it must have been that the clock on TV wasn't synchronised with the officials as just after they kicked the ball out the siren went off.

HongKongCherry wrote:Surely it was no coincidence that when Young came on England went off the boil. The guy is utter turd and so slow at everything he does. Perhaps they are injured  but surely one of Harrison, Spencer, Cook,  Chudley,  Lewis, Braley, Dickson, Arr or even Bergamasco would have been better??

I agree, especially about Bergamasco!  So, serious question, why was Young taken on tour?  Certainly, this tour would have benefited any of the younger players. Bringing a more senior player like Dickson would help the rest of the team.  The only time I like to see Young playing is when he is playing for the opposition.

Well the refereeing was certainly interesting. I thought the last penalty summed it up - a man clearly lying on the wrong side preventing the clear out, and the penalty goes the other way. Brookes had his LH on toast, but I don't think he got a single penalty.

Tompkins looks like he's starting to fulfil his potential. Cipriani and Devoto were good, Robson was excellent (what a try given he was carrying an injury). Haley and Hepburn also good. Overall decent mental strength and some great handling at times.

I don't understand why Chudley isn't on tour.

As a Newcastle fan I was mystified by Young's inclusion, he's been delivering ball like that for us all season, so I'm not seeing what the England coaches saw in him. It is a mercy that he didn't go into box kicking mode...

Assuming they aren't injured I'd have preferred to see; Chris Cook, Sam Harrison or Will Chudley.

With my Northern hat on, I was really pleased to see Haley play so well, I just hope that Sale can keep hold of him. Perhaps with their new investors this will be possible.

Tomkins was really very good. Am I right in thinking he's behind a few players at Sarries? That might change next season.

His step and has almost every time he got the ball was just tearing the SA boys apart.

Wasn't too impressed with Devoto, thought he tried too hard at times and seemed a bit rushed.

Also thought the 6 and 8 had quite games which was a shame as Armand in particular has had a good season.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

Heaf wrote:I must admit I was surprised when I saw that Young was part of the squad ... surely we have better?

The resources are so thin this summer I wonder if maybe, right now, we don't for an A tour.

would have been fine if Simpson weren't in 7s and we could have used Dickson/Wriggles instead but would seem to not be moving things forward

Good point. If they're not using the last two at all then that is weird.

Squad for 2nd game

15. Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
14. Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby, 1 senior England cap)
13. Nick Tompkins (Saracens)
12. Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby, 1 senior England cap)
11. Christian Wade (Wasps, 1 senior England cap)
10. Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks, 14 senior England caps)
9. Dan Robson (Wasps)
1. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs)
2. Tommy Taylor (Sale Sharks, 1 senior England cap)
3. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 16 senior England caps)
4. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 23 senior England caps) (C)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
6. Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
7. Matt Kvesic (Gloucester, 3 senior England caps)
8. Donovan Armand (Exeter Chiefs)

Replacements:
16. George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons)
17. Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
18. Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps)
19. Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs)
20. Sam Jones (Wasps)
21. Micky Young (Newcastle Falcons)
22. Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
23. Sam James (Sale Sharks)

trebellbobaggins wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

Heaf wrote:I must admit I was surprised when I saw that Young was part of the squad ... surely we have better?

The resources are so thin this summer I wonder if maybe, right now, we don't for an A tour.

would have been fine if Simpson weren't in 7s and we could have used Dickson/Wriggles instead but would seem to not be moving things forward

Good point.  If they're not using the last two at all then that is weird.

why is it weird? WHat's the point in putting fully established, older players in the Saxons?

ChequeredJersey wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

Heaf wrote:I must admit I was surprised when I saw that Young was part of the squad ... surely we have better?

The resources are so thin this summer I wonder if maybe, right now, we don't for an A tour.

would have been fine if Simpson weren't in 7s and we could have used Dickson/Wriggles instead but would seem to not be moving things forward

Good point.  If they're not using the last two at all then that is weird.

why is it weird? WHat's the point in putting fully established, older players in the Saxons?

Older, more experienced players can give better ball to the rest of the team and also a little veteran experience. I think that can actually be helpful to get good ball.

Doc, that's true for Stringer and say Bath......But Micky Young and the Saxons! Don't think so.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:

Heaf wrote:I must admit I was surprised when I saw that Young was part of the squad ... surely we have better?

The resources are so thin this summer I wonder if maybe, right now, we don't for an A tour.

would have been fine if Simpson weren't in 7s and we could have used Dickson/Wriggles instead but would seem to not be moving things forward

Good point.  If they're not using the last two at all then that is weird.

why is it weird? WHat's the point in putting fully established, older players in the Saxons?

Agree with that. Saxons should be a stepping stone, primarily giving newer players experience. It's why I am pleased Ashton turned it down as it gives less experienced wingers an opportunity.

Personally I would rather they had taken Wiggy than Young. As mentioned he could have been a wise head on the bench and help younger players settle.


As it is I would still rather have taken Chudley, Cook or Spencer over Young (and if fit Harrison).

I'd have taken Spencer or Chudley

Mind you, I would have taken Callum Braley and Henry Taylor over Young as well.

LondonTiger wrote:Mind you, I would have taken Callum Braley and Henry Taylor over Young as well.

I would have taken Dawson in his current celebrity quiz show captain over Young. In fact I would have taken all 6'3" and 17 stone of 60+ plus me, over young. At least it would have given people a laugh; plus I can still pass the ball more than 3m metres accurately.

Looks a decent side side for tomorrows game. Am glad to see Wade is starting among others.

It's incredible to think that neither Kitchener or Barrow made this quad, second row riches indeed.

I think Kitcheners chances are gone now. He wont make it now. Likewise I think Slaters chances are gone.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Mind you, I would have taken Callum Braley and Henry Taylor over Young as well.

In fact I would have taken all 6'3" and 17 stone of 60+ plus me, over young. At least it would have given people a laugh; plus I can still pass the ball more than 3m metres accurately.

Ah, the perfect body dimensions for a scrum half.

The fact that you can pass more accurately than Young is, unfortunately, not a laughing matter. Even worse, I have no doubts you are right.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Kitcheners chances are gone now. He wont make it now. Likewise I think Slaters chances are gone.

Wouldn't write them off just yet. Things can change. They have in the 2nd row. Plus injuries can bring opportunities.

Both Slater and Kitchener will need good club seasons though. Also need to stay fit.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Kitcheners chances are gone now. He wont make it now. Likewise I think Slaters chances are gone.

Agreed. Kitch's chance probably went:

a) The AIs when he was in EPS, but got injured and was replaced by Kruis.
b) The following 6Ns when Kruis got a short ban for a tip tackle for Sarries and thus was available for the 6Ns


Slater's chances were ruined by injury.

I was impressed with Barrow's end year form and hence my surprise he didn't may the Saxons (injury?).

If he continues to improve then I can't see why he couldn't offer a more physical option as required. Hopefully he has the nous to make those incremental improvements.