Saturday night

First topic message reminder :

Joshua weighed in at 17st 2lb, a stone lighter than his opponent. Both Eubank Jr and Martin Murray weighed in slightly over their respective limits. Dyllian Whyte was a stone heavier than last time.

Murray/Groves could well be fight of the night for me...think Groves wins by late stoppage with a couple of shaky moments. Eubank blasts his man out in reasonably quick time and Joshua levels his man within 3 rounds

... He should have named him David, after his own God.

milkyboy wrote:... He should have named him David, after his own God.

Very good milky. Thanks for that!

Dave, he should have thought about it and then decided for another name rather than an inappropriate one for what he was trying to achieve.

Haye was obviously not thinking however I don't question his motives and admiration for Ali and him naming his son cassius was no doubt coming from a place of genuine acknowledgement of the great man.

As a black male of Caribbean or American decent you are taught about our history and we can understand the significance of the names we have today. If I had a son and wanted to name him after Ali I would not have named him cassius but Haye is mixed race so I guess growing up his parents would have wanted him to get the best of both worlds so to speak and to identify with being both black and white.

The slave name issue is part of a millitant brand of black Afro-centric teaching that most blacks ignore but if you study deeper into it you can appreciate what it signifies especially when trying to find your own identity like Ali and many black people have done.

Thanks onetwo, good comment.

It's Hayes son and if what he named him has significance to him, then good for him. But it does have an element of irony.

The Ali slave name thing was largely Ali bluster. He joined the NoI and wanted to get rid of his slave name, clay. The clay family were a prominent plantation family in the south. No problems with that.

But cassius was the name his parents gave him, so wasn't really his slave name at all. So, in reality, he probably wouldn't mind haye calling his kid the name his parents gave him?

The Mohammed name is ironic though. As the prophet Mohammed was a slave owner, as was the caliph Ali. I assumed he named himself after the second?

Because Mohammed was a slave owner the books about his life, the Hadith, are full of justifications for slavery. Which is why Islam has had an uncomfortable relationship with slavery. Which is why Al Shabab, Boko Horom, ISIS endulge in slavery, technically it's justified in Sharia.

So, removing one slave owners name for another isn't the deepest in ideological thinking. But, he felt it made a statement.

Sorry to get deep and theological.

A translation from Hadith, Sahih Muslim, Book 10, Number 3901:

'There came a slave and pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) on migration; he (the Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man).'

Back on topic.

Though Joshua was professional but that’s about it. I don’t think the fight thought us anything really apart from his opponent had a good chin. We don’t know anything new about Joshua and as the commentary said last night he wasn’t pushed or caught hard so still not sure how good/bad his engine is.

Thurman Porter was a great fight. I had it a draw but two rounds either ways would’ve been hard to argue as a tough one to score. Still not convinced Thurman is all that. Solid enough but I think he can be outboxed. Would fancy Brook to beat him.

Happy

Slavery was a major part of middle age life not just in the middle east either the name Ali chose is not a slave name however his English name cassius clay had no reverence to God but to a family group as you correctly mentioned before the name Muhammad Ali actually has reverence to God and the name was used long before Muhammad brought islam into existence.

Muhammad Ali chose the name because it praised God which the noi believe the black slaves were originally given for names. Names that praised God not in recognition of people but in reverence of their creator. For example Jesus was the Latin name given to yahushua Ben yosef the latter being the original Hebrew name which praised God. Arabs to this day have names that proclaim the creator.

So the big difference between cassius clay and Muhammad Ali is that the latter Ali chose for himself unlike the former that him and his generations were given like a stamp of ownership.

Good debate.

there's a bit in When We Were Kings when Ali talks about his new name and what it means. Can't remember the specifics but I think he mentions the phrase "most high"
Anyway can see Joshua choosing Parker next. Easy to hit and shouldn't pose too much of a physical threat

Back on topic, I 'm looking forward to seeing the Thurman/Porter fight again because I watched the fight on computer and picture not highest quality. Rather like watching the fight from the back of the hall. I had it a draw or point to Porter. Keith the sharper puncher, but maybe Shawn out worked him. What is Shawn's head made of too!

When I watch it back, I could completely change my mind and will come on here and say so if that's the case.

re WWWK. does Ali also say that Elijah Mohammed gave him his name? Been a while since I've seen it

Worthy of praise, most high.

You're welcome.

I'm more of a viewer than a poster but seriously lads this is getting ridiculous lads whatever Haye wishes to call his son is his own opinion no wonder this boxing forum is becoming so bad when you have twits hyper sensitive making something out of nothing

Stick around basset. I like you.

@Basset

As Rowley will confirm to you, *unless you’ve got an internet IQ of 150 or have a net worth of £10m then you’re not worth debating on this forum. It’s pretty much two wrongs make a right type stuff.

*neither of these things will be either true or have to be proven

It's tragic that folk of such wealth and intellect can't find anything better to do with their time really.

Basset wrote:I'm more of a viewer than a poster but seriously lads this is getting ridiculous lads whatever Haye wishes to call his son is his own opinion no wonder this boxing forum is becoming so bad when you have twits hyper sensitive making something out of nothing

Sorry to say this Basset, but you are wrong. When Haye was deciding on a name for his son he should have come on here first for suggestions then this debate could have been avoided.

If I ever have a new baby boy, I know this is the first place I'll come to for ideas.

Atila wrote:

If I ever have a new baby boy, I know this is the first place I'll come to for ideas.

Suspect the chances of anyone on here persuading an actual real woman to do it with us are pretty slim, thus rendering the need to decide a name for a child pretty remote.

Just watched Porter /Thurman again and that's the nearest thing to a draw as you can get in boxing. First time round with a bad picture, I thought Shawn got wobbled in the tenth, but with a clear picture you could see it was just a balance thing. Honestly it's difficult to score that fight in favour  for either man.

As for Haye, well he can call his son whatever the fuc£ he wants to imo. Listening to onetwoforever on race much longer and I think I'll lose the will to live.

Rowley wrote:

Atila wrote:

If I ever have a new baby boy, I know this is the first place I'll come to for ideas.

Suspect the chances of anyone on here persuading an actual real woman to do it with us are pretty slim, thus rendering the need to decide a name for a child pretty remote.

Just to clear something up. When I talk about having a new baby boy, I do mean have a son, an off spring. Had to clear that up before Milkyboy makes me out to be some sort of perve.

I don't need to make you into any such thing Atila... You do such a good job on your own.

And you don't need anyone on here's advice to name young Ray. I'm sure he'll grow up to be a fine figure of a man, with a great bolo punch.

Anyway I'm off to change Marvellous marvin milkyboy's nappy. If I had the wealth of some on here, I'd have a nanny to do it for me. One with a decent set of norks obviously.

Definitely like to see a rematch but not an immediate one as would prefer to see Thurman fight Garcia. But will Angel ever let Danny take a real fight at '47? Really is time though, can't live off the Matthysse win forever.

Also the fight got extremely good ratings, this is what happens when you give the fans what they want, boxing needs to stop shooting itself in the foot and deliver these kind of fights more often. The cherrypickers need to be weeded out but how to go about doing that is another thing. If only the networks could be made to refuse to air the fights of a champion if he refuses to face his chief rival(s.)  Because clearly fan pressure can only do so much.

Rowley wrote:Worthy of praise, most high.

You're welcome.

Thanks but did you discover if the name was chosen by Ali or given to him by Elijah Mohammed...or as I suspect, did I make that bit up?

To be honest I can't recall how this thread strayed spectacularly off topic.

All a bit of a haze to be honest

I blame happy

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Haye was obviously not thinking however I don't question his motives and admiration for Ali and him naming his son cassius was no doubt coming from a place of genuine acknowledgement of the great man.

As a black male of Caribbean or American decent you are taught about our history and we can understand the significance of the names we have today. If I had a son and wanted to name him after Ali I would not have named him cassius but Haye is mixed race so I guess growing up his parents would have wanted him to get the best of both worlds so to speak and to identify with being both black and white.

The slave name issue is part of  a millitant brand of black Afro-centric teaching that most blacks ignore but if you study deeper into it you can appreciate what it signifies especially when trying to find your own identity like Ali and many black people have done.

Really? Which lessons were these at school? Was it at home? Was it compulsory? If it was my father was somewhat remiss on that score. Seems Denzil WASHINGTON and the ironically named Morgan FREEMAN weren't compelled to do anything about it and, as such high profile black actors, one would have thought they'd have been very proactive on that front. Of course unless the black man with the whitest name ever Will "William" SMITH isn't kicking up a stink I guess no-one is really that bothered

Thanks onetwo. Appreciate your comments. But there are numerous flaws in the arguments.

'Slavery was a major part of middle age life not just in the middle east'

Very true but it was largely Christianity and Christian nations that made conscious, ideological and real physical attempts to eliminate slavery, around the world and Africa.

Slavery, as I pointed out, is in fact 'technically' enshrined in Sharia BECAUSE it is mentioned and justified in Hadith AND Koran.

Slavery was a part of Arab culture, and so practiced by Mohammed and the inhabitants of Arabia, till the 50's-60's when the British gov put pressure on the Arabian govs to stop.

Which is why Arab slavery in Africa pre dates European by 700yrs and why it post dated colonial slavery by about 200 yrs. Indeed, Mauritania only abolished slavery in 1980, and only made it illegal in 2000's.

Muslim slavery removed as many African slaves as Christian European but also took a million plus white slaves from Europe. The main difference was the Muslims castrated their slaves because they were more valuable that way. There's many documents of caliphs etc boasting of their (tens) thousand black and white slaves, as it was a sign of power and wealth. Look into the ancient slave revolt in Basra (sorry to lazy to find the exact date) where estimates of 500k slaves took part, including 10'sk black and white.

Indeed, and I may very well be wrong, but there has only been one Muslim nation to voluntarily outlaw slavery, Morocco I think (I once read a list of nations abolishion of slavery and think I remember that but may be wrong).

But, most Muslim nations only abolished slavery under pressure from European nations, predominantly Britain. Indeed, to abolish slavery became a spurious justification (amongst other things) of the Benin, Sholoko in N Nigeria (?) And other African empires.

So, for Ali to leave Christianity and become a Muslim and highlight slavery as the issue is truly bazaar.

If any religion has been synonymous with slavery, it's Islam. It's leading figure was a slave owner, trader etc., his teachings about slavery are part of it's 'legal' fabric and so give endorsement to those who interpret it that way and that endorsement has been widespread up to modernity and are currently used.

By the way, I'm an atheist so take interest in all religions, to challenge them, if nothing else.

But, the fact Mohammed was a slave owning warlord, compared to pacifist ascetic in the case of Jesus and Buddha etc, can only leave Muslims confused with respect to the message of peace that Mohammed ventured in his early life.

joey bartons kid is also called Cassius, running theme here of people who call their kid by that name