The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.

rodders wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:
Fact is as Cameron said this week at the EU summit, immigration and the open border policy lost him the remain vote the head in the sand EU bureaucrats ignored it when it was mentioned in January and that is why we are now on our way out of the EU, the ordinary man on the street hasn't got a clue about the bloody economy.

The EU didn't ignore it, Cameron was told then, what May or whoever replaces him will be told when they (threaten to) invoke article 50 - that the free movement of people is one of the fundamental principals of the EU and without it there is no full access to the single market.

The failure of remain to sell the deal that Cameron got, arguably the best deal of any member state, and outline all the economic and social benefits of EU membership in a way the man on the street could understand - including free movement of people - is why we are on our way out.

Liam Fox who has shot his hat in the ring for the Tory leadership has already said that the way forward is a deal in Europe without the free movement of people and that is what this country has voted for.

Nico the gman wrote:

rodders wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:
Fact is as Cameron said this week at the EU summit, immigration and the open border policy lost him the remain vote the head in the sand EU bureaucrats ignored it when it was mentioned in January and that is why we are now on our way out of the EU, the ordinary man on the street hasn't got a clue about the bloody economy.

The EU didn't ignore it, Cameron was told then, what May or whoever replaces him will be told when they (threaten to) invoke article 50 - that the free movement of people is one of the fundamental principals of the EU and without it there is no full access to the single market.

The failure of remain to sell the deal that Cameron got, arguably the best deal of any member state, and outline all the economic and social benefits of EU membership in a way the man on the street could understand - including free movement of people - is why we are on our way out.

Liam Fox who has shot his hat in the ring for the Tory leadership has already said that the way forward is a deal in Europe without the free movement of people and that is what this country has voted for.

It's not in Liam's hands, or anyone other UK politicians to decide on what terms the EU will give and it is disingenuous for anyone in the leave camp to say it is.

What they should have said from the outset that it would be very difficult to arrange a free trade deal with Europe post brexit and more than likely it would be on worse terms that we have already.

That might have made the vote a bit easier for people, as they'd voting on reality not fantasy.

rodders wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

rodders wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....

Well would say it was everyone who voted leave who did that, it can't be blamed on Boris, more so the idiots who believed him.

Rubbish.

Why is it? Boris just had one vote the same as everyone else.

All of these questions the leave camp can't answer now, they couldn't answer before the referendum - and were they tried it was just so incredulous a child could have seen through it i.e. the mythical 350 million extra for the NHS.

The state the country is in now is entirely down to the 17.5 million people who voted to leave and ignore all the warnings about the consequences and took a blind leap of faith at the behest of narcissistic idiots like Johnson and treacherous toads like Farriage and Gove.

Boris having just one vote is neither here nor there, however, the fact that he led the Leave campaign is. He is responsible for how he led the campaign, and must be held accountable for how he informed the public, as should Cameron and Corbyn. None did a sterling job (pun intended).
You are blaming a public for not fully comprehending complex economic issues, or a complex UK - EU relationship, but rather investing their trust on those in authority, and those expected to be equipped with the understanding and insights they lack.
You are also expecting 2/3 of the Brexit vote to vote on the word of a Government and opposition that they feel has abandoned them. These people have clearly lost trust in the British establishment, and so convincing them to their side of the debate was always going to be a huge challenge, and one that Remain failed spectacularly.

Yes I am blaming the public  -100%.

If people were unsure then they should have either stayed at home or voted for the status quo position.

If people were prepared to change out of their pajamas and miss an episode of Jeremy Kyle or homes under the hammer to vote for constitutional change then they should have made sure they had some bloody clue what they were voting on.

rodders wrote:

The failure of remain to sell the deal that Cameron got, arguably the best deal of any member state, and outline all the economic and social benefits of EU membership in a way the man on the street could understand - including free movement of people - is why we are on our way out.

And so confirming that the UK has always wanted special status anyway.  They've always regarded themselves as the most OUT of the IN crowd.  But now that they have decided to be fully OUT, they want to negotiate being the most IN of the OUT crowd?

I personally liked the UK's attitude to the EU, but perhaps those decades of half-hearted commitment and the retention of the pound and the constant resistance to EU conformity was finally dragged out further than those big boys in Europe were going to accept.

What does being IN mean if in practice you want to cherry pick all the good bits and leave the other, less edible IN bits to the others?  How much IN has the UK ever really wanted?  Not much', is what history would answer.

So has the UK not finally gotten the perfect model?  More OUT than IN?  Hasn't that always been what it wanted in the first place?

rodders wrote:Yes I am blaming the public  -100%.

If people were unsure then they should have either stayed at home or voted for the status quo position.

If people were prepared to change out of their pajamas and miss an episode of Jeremy Kyle or homes under the hammer to vote for constitutional change then they should have made sure they had some bloody clue what they were voting on.

Who said they were unsure? They may well have actually believed a politician and voted accordingly. Shocking, isn't it?

Kyle? Maybe you think 17 million of the Brexit vote are unemployed, including around 6 million middle class? I know you're angry at the result, but lashing out as you are is uncalled for.

rodders wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:

rodders wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:
Fact is as Cameron said this week at the EU summit, immigration and the open border policy lost him the remain vote the head in the sand EU bureaucrats ignored it when it was mentioned in January and that is why we are now on our way out of the EU, the ordinary man on the street hasn't got a clue about the bloody economy.

The EU didn't ignore it, Cameron was told then, what May or whoever replaces him will be told when they (threaten to) invoke article 50 - that the free movement of people is one of the fundamental principals of the EU and without it there is no full access to the single market.

The failure of remain to sell the deal that Cameron got, arguably the best deal of any member state, and outline all the economic and social benefits of EU membership in a way the man on the street could understand - including free movement of people - is why we are on our way out.

Liam Fox who has shot his hat in the ring for the Tory leadership has already said that the way forward is a deal in Europe without the free movement of people and that is what this country has voted for.

It's not in Liam's hands, or anyone other UK politicians to decide on what terms the EU will give and it is disingenuous for anyone in the leave camp to say it is.

What they should have said from the outset that it would be very difficult to arrange a free trade deal with Europe post brexit and more than likely it would be on worse terms that we have already.

That might have made the vote a bit easier for people, as they'd voting on reality not fantasy.  

But that was the problem when you sat and watched the TV debates, Cameron couldn't answer a single question properly, and as one University student said "I'm studying a degree in English Lit and I know waffle when I hear it" Brexit must have been over the moon Cameron was leading the remain campaign, if Corbyn wasn't in touch with the labour party, Cameron wasn't in sync with the country he was an absolute joke.

rodders wrote:Yes I am blaming the public  -100%.

If people were unsure then they should have either stayed at home or voted for the status quo position.

If people were prepared to change out of their pajamas and miss an episode of Jeremy Kyle or homes under the hammer to vote for constitutional change then they should have made sure they had some bloody clue what they were voting on.

^ this

At no point was either side able to say what was going to happen if we left the EU. So your choice was stay with as it is, or take a risk that it might be better out.

My personal opinion is better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Maybe I'm risk adverse but it was such a big decision, it wasn't one to gamble on.

My analogy was that if you find a big black hole in the ground and you can't see the bottom. If someone tells you there's a 50% there is a trampoline in there and 50% it's just a big black hole, how many people would jump in?

Munchkin wrote:

rodders wrote:Yes I am blaming the public  -100%.

If people were unsure then they should have either stayed at home or voted for the status quo position.

If people were prepared to change out of their pajamas and miss an episode of Jeremy Kyle or homes under the hammer to vote for constitutional change then they should have made sure they had some bloody clue what they were voting on.

Who said they were unsure? They may well have actually believed a politician and voted accordingly. Shocking, isn't it?

Kyle? Maybe you think 17 million of the Brexit vote are unemployed, including around 6 million middle class? I know you're angry at the result, but lashing out as you are is uncalled for.

Why do you assume that anyone who watches Jeremy Kyle is unemployed.
Seems you are generalising just as much.[/quote]

Afro wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

rodders wrote:Yes I am blaming the public  -100%.

If people were unsure then they should have either stayed at home or voted for the status quo position.

If people were prepared to change out of their pajamas and miss an episode of Jeremy Kyle or homes under the hammer to vote for constitutional change then they should have made sure they had some bloody clue what they were voting on.

Who said they were unsure? They may well have actually believed a politician and voted accordingly. Shocking, isn't it?

Kyle? Maybe you think 17 million of the Brexit vote are unemployed, including around 6 million middle class? I know you're angry at the result, but lashing out as you are is uncalled for.

Why do you assume that anyone who watches Jeremy Kyle is unemployed.
Seems you are generalising just as much.

I was responding to rodders implication. Take it up with him if you're so vexed, however, as the show is during working hours I don't think it's much of a generalisation, do you?

I'm not vexed. I'm making a point that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Afro wrote:I'm not vexed. I'm making a point that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Hit and a miss for you then.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:47% of what?

15% of what?

Percentages are nice, but 47% of f**k all is f**k all.

Show me the money (and source).

47% of our exports go to the EU. What if this is worth say......£15bn?

15% of EU exports go to America. What if this was worth say.......£78bn?

Ergo getting slapped with any restrictions on our trade to the EU would have huge negative effects.

This isn't hard to understand and the figures are readily available in the public domain.

Right then! If you can't answer it, don't act like you know it all.

Which, my friend, you absolutely don't.

Oh just be quiet you "something as our PHD maths genius will ban me".

Our exports to the EU were worth about £230bn last calendar year. So yes, a lot. And yes, I know more than you. And yes that's far more than the net £9bn we spend on membership to be able to export those goods and services.

Jesus Christ.

That's not how I see it.

Ive perceived you as self righteous and that you come across as thinking yourself above other posters on here.

So pointing out that you appeared to be generalising felt good!

Afro wrote:That's not how I see it.

Ive perceived you as self righteous and that you come across as thinking yourself above other posters on here.

So pointing out that you appeared to be generalising felt good!

Uh Oh!  I feel a Class debate coming:



I'm the bowler hat.

Afro wrote:That's not how I see it.

Ive perceived you as self righteous and that you come across as thinking yourself above other posters on here.

So pointing out that you appeared to be generalising felt good!

So you're not being self-righteous in pointing out my obvious self-righteousness? Ok then.

Happy you're so easily pleased....

I'm out. I try to avoid this post when certain individuals are on.

SecretFly wrote:

Afro wrote:That's not how I see it.

Ive perceived you as self righteous and that you come across as thinking yourself above other posters on here.

So pointing out that you appeared to be generalising felt good!

Uh Oh!  I feel a Class debate coming:



I'm the bowler hat.

As an Ulster man, I can only be the one in the bowler

"The decision to trigger Article 50 is in the hands of the next prime minister. If that is me, I will make a judgement as to when is right for Britain and I won't be hurried or hassled by anyone into pressing that button or triggering that Article until I believe it is right for this country," he said.

Interesting quote from Gove the Boris bullet killing lunatic.

I would've thought he'd be all over marching down there and signing it with blood...

Hmmm

Afro wrote:I'm out. I try to avoid this post when certain individuals are on.

I did say that was my perception not that i was right.

Coxy001 wrote:

"The decision to trigger Article 50 is in the hands of the next prime minister. If that is me, I will make a judgement as to when is right for Britain and I won't be hurried or hassled by anyone into pressing that button or triggering that Article until I believe it is right for this country," he said.

Interesting quote from Gove the Boris bullet killing lunatic.

I would've thought he'd be all over marching down there and signing it with blood...

Hmmm

I have wondered if nobody really wants the PM job because they may have to hit the button?

Munchkin wrote:

Afro wrote:I'm out. I try to avoid this post when certain individuals are on.

I wasn't referring to you.

Unless you are celebrating my leaving, in which case, carry on

Afro wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Afro wrote:I'm out. I try to avoid this post when certain individuals are on.

I wasn't referring to you.

Unless you are celebrating my leaving, in which case, carry on

oh, sorry

Munchkin wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:

"The decision to trigger Article 50 is in the hands of the next prime minister. If that is me, I will make a judgement as to when is right for Britain and I won't be hurried or hassled by anyone into pressing that button or triggering that Article until I believe it is right for this country," he said.

Interesting quote from Gove the Boris bullet killing lunatic.

I would've thought he'd be all over marching down there and signing it with blood...

Hmmm

I have wondered if nobody really wants the PM job because they may have to hit the button?

I think this is spot on btw. I don't think any of them expected Cameron to step aside so quickly.

Ironically I think the new leader and therefore the person to press the button will have been a
Remain campaigner

Coxy001 wrote:

"The decision to trigger Article 50 is in the hands of the next prime minister. If that is me, I will make a judgement as to when is right for Britain and I won't be hurried or hassled by anyone into pressing that button or triggering that Article until I believe it is right for this country," he said.

Interesting quote from Gove the Boris bullet killing lunatic.

I would've thought he'd be all over marching down there and signing it with blood...

Hmmm

It looks like it'll take a real man to press that button....

And a Remainer. Over to you Theresa.

The Leavers are now praying a Remainer gets in.

Gove is melting under the pressure of his back stabbing.

sorry for repeat afro...didn't see your post

Afro wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:

"The decision to trigger Article 50 is in the hands of the next prime minister. If that is me, I will make a judgement as to when is right for Britain and I won't be hurried or hassled by anyone into pressing that button or triggering that Article until I believe it is right for this country," he said.

Interesting quote from Gove the Boris bullet killing lunatic.

I would've thought he'd be all over marching down there and signing it with blood...

Hmmm

I have wondered if nobody really wants the PM job because they may have to hit the button?

I think this is spot on btw. I don't think any of them expected Cameron to step aside so quickly.

Ironically I think the new leader and therefore the person to press the button will have been a
Remain campaigner

This whole campaign has been full of irony.

It was interesting that Boris and Gove sent a letter to Cameron asking him to stay, after the Brexit victory. I think they are terrified. I won't be surprised at all to see Gove drop out of the running, and basically hand it to May.

SecretFly wrote:sorry for repeat afro...didn't see your post

No worries man. Forums are for all opinions.

SecretFly wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:

"The decision to trigger Article 50 is in the hands of the next prime minister. If that is me, I will make a judgement as to when is right for Britain and I won't be hurried or hassled by anyone into pressing that button or triggering that Article until I believe it is right for this country," he said.

Interesting quote from Gove the Boris bullet killing lunatic.

I would've thought he'd be all over marching down there and signing it with blood...

Hmmm

It looks like it'll take a real man to press that button....

And a Remainer.   Over to you Theresa.

The Leavers are now praying a Remainer gets in.

Gove is melting under the pressure of his back stabbing.

Haha! Agreed. Trying to get odds of us not leaving in the next 5 years and no one is giving me odds

Agreed?! WTF is happening to me.

OECD's breakdown of UK's major trading partners and what they are:

The United Kingdom is the 9th largest export economy in the world and the 11th most complex economy according to the Economic Complexity Index (ECI). In 2014, the United Kingdom exported $472B and imported $663B, resulting in a negative trade balance of $191B. In 2014 the GDP of the United Kingdom was $2.99T and its GDP per capita was $40.2k.

The top exports of the United Kingdom are Cars ($46B), Gold ($37.4B), Crude Petroleum ($23.1B), Refined Petroleum ($22.1B) and Packaged Medicaments ($19.6B), using the 1992 revision of the HS (Harmonized System) classification. Its top imports are Cars ($47.3B), Crude Petroleum ($34.1B), Refined Petroleum ($27.7B), Packaged Medicaments ($21.5B) and Computers ($16.9B).

The top export destinations of the United Kingdom are the
United States ($51B),
Germany ($46.5B),
the Netherlands ($34.2B),
Switzerland ($33.6B) and
France ($27B).

The top import origins are Germany ($100B),
China ($62.7B),
the Netherlands ($50.7B),
the United States ($44.4B) and
France ($41.5B).

The United Kingdom borders Ireland by land and Antigua and Barbuda by sea.

May on her own - so purposeful and strident in her distinct views - she's doing it the right way - no dithering. That's what markets want - someone that is not displaying fear but determination to get a job done with efficiency.

She should be a walk-in but of course she has to keep up that attitude right through to getting chosen. If she too starts doing 'maybes' under pressure from the media then she'll become just another one of the nervous boys. She needs to keep strong - and show it.

May would have my vote 100%. Shes the only one with any eyes on the real job at hand

This article, on Gove's wife, adds weight to the theory that neither of Boris or Gove actually wanted Brexit to succeed: TheReluctantVictors

Well ok let me try and guide this a bit

A lot of people felt the result was based on lies and deceit without any real thought.

Is there any precedent to formally, legally challenge the validity of a referendum if it could be shown as fraudulent in some way.

Ignorance isnt illegal, but would the campaigning be seen as deliberately deceitful and be challengsble

temporary21 wrote:Well ok let me try and guide this a bit

A lot of people felt the result was based on lies and deceit without any real thought.

Is there any precedent to formally, legally challenge the validity of a referendum if it could be shown as fraudulent in some way.

Ignorance isnt illegal, but would the campaigning be seen as deliberately deceitful and be challengsble

I was thinking the same questions. I don't know, but I doubt there could be any legal challenge, even if proven deceitful. Would it be right to push for a second, properly informed, referendum?

Munchkin wrote:

temporary21 wrote:Well ok let me try and guide this a bit

A lot of people felt the result was based on lies and deceit without any real thought.

Is there any precedent to formally, legally challenge the validity of a referendum if it could be shown as fraudulent in some way.

Ignorance isnt illegal, but would the campaigning be seen as deliberately deceitful and be challengsble

I was thinking the same questions. I don't know, but I doubt there could be any legal challenge, even if proven deceitful. Would it be right to push for a second, properly informed, referendum?

Thanks for the link #munchkin, interesting to read though not much surprising there.

There can be no legal challenge at all for the simple reason it's not binding. If it was binding then you could at least argue that it's not a true reflection of democracy or that it was voted for under false premise. Someone simply has to have the balls to say we will not invoke it,

ShahenshahG wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

temporary21 wrote:Well ok let me try and guide this a bit

A lot of people felt the result was based on lies and deceit without any real thought.

Is there any precedent to formally, legally challenge the validity of a referendum if it could be shown as fraudulent in some way.

Ignorance isnt illegal, but would the campaigning be seen as deliberately deceitful and be challengsble

I was thinking the same questions. I don't know, but I doubt there could be any legal challenge, even if proven deceitful. Would it be right to push for a second, properly informed, referendum?

Thanks for the link #munchkin, interesting to read though not much surprising there.

There can be no legal challenge at all for the simple reason it's not binding. If it was binding then you could at least argue that it's not a true reflection of democracy or that it was voted for under false premise. Someone simply has to have the balls to say we will not invoke it,

You're right, it isn't legally binding. I struggle a bit with the idea of refusing to invoke it but then, if the voters were duped, then democracy has been abused. I wouldn't just refuse to invoke it though. I think a second referendum would be the right thing to do, if it's the right at all. It may also help avoid rioting on a huge scale.

Whether people like it or not the country voted to leave the EU and I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of a 2nd Referendum, those who did fail to vote and wanted to remain have in my opinion no argument.

Nico the gman wrote:Whether people like it or not the country voted to leave the EU and I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of a 2nd Referendum, those who did fail to vote and wanted to remain have in my opinion no argument.

I don't think a 2nd referendum will happen. I do think a 2nd referendum would vote Remain, even if the exact same voters came out.

That's fair enough, if you couldn't be arsed to vote or register you deserve not to have your voice heard. But nearly every claim has turned out to be a lie or a half truth so there has to be some scope. I too struggle with it munchkin, but the problem isn't a small one. The damage done by invoking it could be seismic so if there is any room for error i'd definitely err on the side of the status quo. I work in the security industry and i'll be one of the few who gets a pay rise/promotion should the worst happen but i'd rather be stuck here than watch hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs over some referendum where practically no one knew what was what and every single promise was broken before the perpetrators even took office.

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https://www.606v2.com/viewtopic.forum?t=63519

temporary21 wrote:Im a doctor of mathematics...

Bsc 1st with honours, Msc with distinction, and Phd...

I would suggest therefore that you stop talking down to everyone because you got an average Bsc. Trust me, that doesnt make you as smart as you might think

You insult my intelligence or talk down to me, or anybody even one more time, I wont ask anybody to ban you. Ill give you the clearly needed time to calm down myself

Final warning mate... Ive been very patient with you given your tone but there are limits even now

What do you make of George Osbourne and John McDonell? Do any of their proposals stack up? I know economics is NOT maths, but even though I'm a postgrad I nearly failed Standard Grade Maths so I'm good at rhetoric but crap at the crunch of the numbers.