The UEFA Champions League and Europa League Thread 2016/17

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

Might as well make a poll on this one...

[Guest]

N'Koudou, Sissoko & Janssen were dire acquisitions & Poch has paid the price for his decisions.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

It's weird to me he rested players for this and not for our game at the weekend.

[Hero]

Janssen isn't living up to the billing but I never thought Spurs was the right club for him, just some faces don't fit certain clubs.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

He probably could have done with being the star somewhere

[Guest]

PSG 3-0 Barcelona

I still think PSG will need 4, just to make sure

[Crimey]

Being completely torn apart. Barcelona aren't replacing their top players properly, Alves and Xavi both left in the last couple of years and not replaced properly, not to mention Iniesta isn't getting any younger and no real replacement for him either.

[Guest]

4-0

tie over. agree, transitioned from recruiting star names, to building squad depth.

[Guest]

and that's the end of Arsenal in the champions league

[Hammersmith harrier]

Wenger really does need to move on; fourth place and the last 16 of the Champions League year in year out can't be enough any more.

[Jermaine2015]

as I predicted when the draw was made Arsenal aren't in FC Bayern's class, even this disjointed version Ancelotti has employed

[Ent]

Not surprised by that result.

Arsenal are a poor side, lacking in quality players - Bayern have top players throughout their side and numerous world class players.

Men against boys.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

To this day I'll never understand why Liverpool sold Xabi Alonso. What a lovely player, their best midfielder of the 21st century

[Ent]

Not much you can do when bigger clubs with more money come calling.

[GSC]

Probably the night when it became clear the end is nigh. Despite the ridicule, United and Liverpool have shown managing to stay at a high level for a long time is hard to accomplish. But there's no clear sign of progression.

[Crimey]

To this day I'll never understand why Liverpool sold Xabi Alonso. What a lovely player, their best midfielder of the 21st century

Don't be silly.

I love Xabi Alonso but Gerrard was definitely much better, particularly for Liverpool. Before his absolutely world class 2008/09 season, Alonso had actually had two pretty poor seasons in a row. 04/05 and 05/06 he was good, not world class but good. His form dropped off of a cliff in 06/07 and 07/08, it's only in hindsight after the next season where he was world class that it seems strange that Benitez didn't have faith in him. Not to mention it was clear that Alonso was playing so well because he was looking to move for a bigger club. It came after Benitez was considering replacing him and he had already decided his time was up. 

During that time Gerrard was far and away the better player.

[Jermaine2015]

Zlatan's bagged his 21st of the season with arguably one of the worst freekicks of his career. United will take it

[Jermaine2015]

Manchester United dodged plenty of bullets tonight, St Etienne wasteful. Zlatan makes it 2-0

[Jermaine2015]

United kill off the tie, Zlatan first hat trick in England with a PK. 23 goals and 7 assists for the ageless Zlatan

[Hero]

That was a very flattering 3-0 win but certainly take it.

[Guest]

To this day I'll never understand why Liverpool sold Xabi Alonso. What a lovely player, their best midfielder of the 21st century

I say this to fellow Liverpool fans and they laugh. As a pure footballer Gerrard doesn't come close.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

To this day I'll never understand why Liverpool sold Xabi Alonso. What a lovely player, their best midfielder of the 21st century

I say this to fellow Liverpool fans and they laugh. As a pure footballer Gerrard doesn't come close.

100% agree freek

[Crimey]

To this day I'll never understand why Liverpool sold Xabi Alonso. What a lovely player, their best midfielder of the 21st century

I say this to fellow Liverpool fans and they laugh. As a pure footballer Gerrard doesn't come close.

What does that even mean? It's such a meaningless distinction. If Gerrard was foreign and Alonso was English I am certain that this wouldn't be used as an argument. Alonso is a fantastic world class midfielder, but he only was world class for Liverpool for one season. I'd argue even the levels he reached after leaving Liverpool never hit Gerrard's heights, where for a decent period of time he was one of the best players in the world. It's unfair as they didn't play the same position but I think Gerrard at his height would be more sought after than Alonso ever was.

[Hammersmith harrier]

To this day I'll never understand why Liverpool sold Xabi Alonso. What a lovely player, their best midfielder of the 21st century

I say this to fellow Liverpool fans and they laugh. As a pure footballer Gerrard doesn't come close.

It's the English mentality though that running around a lot makes you a better player, we're so far behind the continent it's unreal.

[Crimey]

To this day I'll never understand why Liverpool sold Xabi Alonso. What a lovely player, their best midfielder of the 21st century

I say this to fellow Liverpool fans and they laugh. As a pure footballer Gerrard doesn't come close.

It's the English mentality though that running around a lot makes you a better player, we're so far behind the continent it's unreal.

It's also the English mentality that "classy" foreign players are better than English ones. I'm genuinely baffled that people genuinely think that Xabi Alonso is better than Gerrard. Obviously it's difficult to compare as they play different positions but Gerrard was definitely better than Alonso when Alonso was at Liverpool and I'd argue even at Alonso's peak when compared to Gerrard's peak that Gerrard was a better player.

[Beer]

To this day I'll never understand why Liverpool sold Xabi Alonso. What a lovely player, their best midfielder of the 21st century

I say this to fellow Liverpool fans and they laugh. As a pure footballer Gerrard doesn't come close.

It's the English mentality though that running around a lot makes you a better player, we're so far behind the continent it's unreal.

It's also the English mentality that "classy" foreign players are better than English ones. I'm genuinely baffled that people genuinely think that Xabi Alonso is better than Gerrard. Obviously it's difficult to compare as they play different positions but Gerrard was definitely better than Alonso when Alonso was at Liverpool and I'd argue even at Alonso's peak when compared to Gerrard's peak that Gerrard was a better player.

And that view is nothing to do with being a Liverpool fan?

[Hero]

Poll up on this page.

[Crimey]

To this day I'll never understand why Liverpool sold Xabi Alonso. What a lovely player, their best midfielder of the 21st century

I say this to fellow Liverpool fans and they laugh. As a pure footballer Gerrard doesn't come close.

It's the English mentality though that running around a lot makes you a better player, we're so far behind the continent it's unreal.

It's also the English mentality that "classy" foreign players are better than English ones. I'm genuinely baffled that people genuinely think that Xabi Alonso is better than Gerrard. Obviously it's difficult to compare as they play different positions but Gerrard was definitely better than Alonso when Alonso was at Liverpool and I'd argue even at Alonso's peak when compared to Gerrard's peak that Gerrard was a better player.

And that view is nothing to do with being a Liverpool fan?

Xabi Alonso also played, quite successfuly for Liverpool....

I love Alonso, but he was not a world class player for most of his time at Liverpool, he had one world class season and that was 08/09. The two seasons previous to that he wasn't anywhere near world class, he was often in poor form and it wasn't inconceivable that he could have been sold for less than £20 million without anybody raising their eyebrows. He raised his game up a level in 08/09 when he had decided he wanted to move clubs, which generated the Real Madrid lesson and then was fantastic for Madrid for five-six years.

Gerrard on the other hand from 04/05-09/10 was pretty much consistently world class or very close to it. He would have been a starter at pretty much every club in world football. His list of individual accolades is probably quadruple of that of Alonso, both in England and in Europe. For example Gerrard has been named in both the UEFA team of the year three times, and the FIFA FIFPro World XI three times, Xabi Alonso was named just twice in the FIFPro team. 

There is absolutely no comparing Alonso's Liverpool career to Gerrard's, which is what Olly was doing. Maybe, maybe you could argue Alonso's later career success gets him closer to Gerrard but from their times at Liverpool it's genuinely not even close. There was never a season where Alonso was better than Gerrard.

[Hammersmith harrier]

You put far too much stock into awards and you've written three paragraphs without once saying a reason why you think Gerrard is better and it's simply not true that the English rate continental players more.

You say Gerrard was consistently world class during a six year period which isn't strictly true, he was capable of world class performances but was anonymous for large parts of the season. His performance in Istanbul is for me the single most over rated performance in my memory, he was shocking for the first 45 minutes and most people like to forget that it was the introduction of Hamann that changed that game.

Gerrard had talent and worked hard but for me a top class midfielder can control matches week in week out something that Alonso was capable of doing but not Gerrard.

[Beer]

You put far too much stock into awards and you've written three paragraphs without once saying a reason why you think Gerrard is better and it's simply not true that the English rate continental players more.

You say Gerrard was consistently world class during a six year period which isn't strictly true, he was capable of world class performances but was anonymous for large parts of the season. His performance in Istanbul is for me the single most over rated performance in my memory, he was shocking for the first 45 minutes and most people like to forget that it was the introduction of Hamann that changed that game.

Gerrard had talent and worked hard but for me a top class midfielder can control matches week in week out something that Alonso was capable of doing but not Gerrard.

Always happens, Harrier.

Euro '96, England v Scotland; Gazza was absolute dross for 70 minues, scores a worldy and everyone forgets the horror show. He was about to be subbed before he did that.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Gerrard was better. Alonso is lovely, a real graceful player, but Gerrard was genuinely one of the better players in the world. 

Crimey is right, there was a period at Liverpool where Xabi dropped. 

And most of the best performances in football aren't 90 minute performances. It's about impact, and Gerrard's was instrumental in that and the cup final that still breaks my heart. Especially as individuals stand out when the chips are down and the team isn't working.

[Crimey]

Gerrard was still the best performing Liverpool player in the first half and absolutely dragged the team to victory in that game. I have watched that match more than any other, as recently as last year and it would be stupid to say Gerrard wasn't instrumental in that win and not a lot of blame could be attributed to him for the first half performance.

AC Milan blew Liverpool away in the first half as Kaka was absolutely open, funnily enough the person who was supposed to be controlling Kaka? Xabi Alonso. Gerrard was given more freedom to get forward whilst Alonso was to sit back and control Kaka. 

Then the second half, Gerrard played about 4 different positions and was fantastic in all of them. Definitely Hamann coming on and marking Kaka was a big help, this freed Alonso to use his passing ability but more importantly allowed Gerrard and Garcia to move just behind Baros and Gerrard to cause a ridiculous amount of problems. Then when the equaliser went in, he was moved further back in midfield and helped nullify their threat and then when Serginho came on he was moved to right back where he played a big role in stopping Serginho turning the tide of the game. 

Then this is without mentioning ALL the other games where Gerrard was the direct influence on Liverpool winning, FA Cup Final 2006, coming off of the bench against Napoli, hat-trick against Everton in 2013. 

Gerrard is close to being considered Liverpool's best ever player, never mind best midfielder of the 21st century. There is only one player who comes close to Gerrard's talent for Liverpool in that time and that's Suarez. Even then Suarez had one world class season, he was decent in the second half of 10/11, certainly better in 11/12, top talent in 12/13 and then out of this world in 13/14. But even a player of Suarez's quality and talent was unable to drag performances and win games in the same way that Gerrard did. The closest Suarez ever came was in 12/13 against Zenit in the Europa League or against Manchester United in 11/12 when Dirk Kuyt scored a hat-trick.

As for actual reasons Gerrard is better than Alonso, it's difficult as they are different positions but I'd honestly argue there are only two things Alonso is better than Gerrard at and that's long range passing and reading of the game. Even there he's not that much better than Gerrard as Gerrard was very good at both of those things. Crossing, set pieces, shooting, pace, tackling, defending, heading, attacking runs, versatility, leadership, penalties, "skill" all those things Gerrard was better than Alonso at. 

I'm genuinely surprised it's even a debate and I definitely think, IN PART, it has to do with the fact that he's English. It makes him less glamorous than Alonso. 

Gerrard had talent and worked hard but for me a top class midfielder can control matches week in week out something that Alonso was capable of doing but not Gerrard.

This is actually the reason it's so stupid to try and compare the two as they played totally different positions. During their time together at Liverpool, which is what we're discussing, Gerrard played as a right midfielder and as a number 10. He very rarely played as a deeper holding midfielder like Alonso did. Gerrard was never tasked with controlling matches week in and week out, he was tasked with setting up goals, scoring goals, changing the match and he did that consistently week in week out. It's simply wrong to say that Gerrard would go missing for most of the season, he was incredibly consistent, it was one of his best traits. Alonso is the player that would drop dramatically out and in of form for much of his time at Liverpool. This is why he could not be relied upon by Benitez in the same way.

[superflyweight]

Don't recall Alonso ever slipping.

[Jermaine2015]

Gerrard lacked the courage to better himself at a bigger club e.g. Chelsea. Could've achieved a legendary cv playing with superior players. Whereas he was happy to be a big fish in a small pond at Liverpool.

Alonso take the opportunity to further his career at Real Madrid and FC Bayern and it transformed his career.

[Scott is Back]

Don't recall Alonso ever slipping.  

[Crimey]

Gerrard lacked the courage to better himself at a bigger club e.g. Chelsea. Could've achieved a legendary cv playing with superior players. Whereas he was happy to be a big fish in a small pond at Liverpool.

To be fair, when Gerrard stayed at Liverpool they were still very much competitive. He could have left later in his career around 2012-14 when Bayern were interested, but other than that when he chose to stay at Liverpool they weren't really that small of a pond. 

05-06: Liverpool 3rd, Chelsea 1st Points difference: 9 | Liverpool won FA Cup that season, both reached L16 of Champions League after Liverpool finished ahead in their group
06-07: Liverpool 3rd, Chelsea 2nd Points difference: 15 | Chelsea won FA Cup and League Cup, but Liverpool knocked them out Champions League semi-finals
07-08: Liverpool 4th, Chelsea 2nd Points difference: 9 | Chelsea knocked Liverpool out of Champions League semi-finals, Chelsea runners up in League Cup
08-09: Liverpool 2nd, Chelsea 3rd Points difference: -3 | Chelsea knocked Liverpool out of Champions League quarter finals, Chelsea win FA Cup

So through Gerrard's prime Liverpool were competing with Chelsea, both domestically and in Europe. Okay, he'd have missed out on a league title and a couple of cups, but not a huge difference to his CV. Obviously Gerrard would have likely improved Chelsea so they would have done better, but I can totally see why Gerrard wanted to win it all with his hometown club rather than selling out to Chelsea. Surely that takes more courage? He was the major reason Liverpool were one of Europe's best clubs in that period. I feel like people forget that Liverpool reached two Champions League finals in that time and the other years were in semi-finals and quarter finals consistently.

[Guest]

Gerrard lacked the courage to better himself at a bigger club e.g. Chelsea. Could've achieved a legendary cv playing with superior players. Whereas he was happy to be a big fish in a small pond at Liverpool.

To be fair, when Gerrard stayed at Liverpool they were still very much competitive. He could have left later in his career around 2012-14 when Bayern were interested, but other than that when he chose to stay at Liverpool they weren't really that small of a pond. 

05-06: Liverpool 3rd, Chelsea 1st Points difference: 9 | Liverpool won FA Cup that season, both reached L16 of Champions League after Liverpool finished ahead in their group
06-07: Liverpool 3rd, Chelsea 2nd Points difference: 15 | Chelsea won FA Cup and League Cup, but Liverpool knocked them out Champions League semi-finals
07-08: Liverpool 4th, Chelsea 2nd Points difference: 9 | Chelsea knocked Liverpool out of Champions League semi-finals, Chelsea runners up in League Cup
08-09: Liverpool 2nd, Chelsea 3rd Points difference: -3 | Chelsea knocked Liverpool out of Champions League quarter finals, Chelsea win FA Cup

So through Gerrard's prime Liverpool were competing with Chelsea, both domestically and in Europe. Okay, he'd have missed out on a league title and a couple of cups, but not a huge difference to his CV. Obviously Gerrard would have likely improved Chelsea so they would have done better, but I can totally see why Gerrard wanted to win it all with his hometown club rather than selling out to Chelsea. Surely that takes more courage? He was the major reason Liverpool were one of Europe's best clubs in that period. I feel like people forget that Liverpool reached two Champions League finals in that time and the other years were in semi-finals and quarter finals consistently.

There's a 30 points difference there, Crimey. And knocking a side out of the CL means diddy if you don't win the damn thing.

[Crimey]

Gerrard lacked the courage to better himself at a bigger club e.g. Chelsea. Could've achieved a legendary cv playing with superior players. Whereas he was happy to be a big fish in a small pond at Liverpool.

To be fair, when Gerrard stayed at Liverpool they were still very much competitive. He could have left later in his career around 2012-14 when Bayern were interested, but other than that when he chose to stay at Liverpool they weren't really that small of a pond. 

05-06: Liverpool 3rd, Chelsea 1st Points difference: 9 | Liverpool won FA Cup that season, both reached L16 of Champions League after Liverpool finished ahead in their group
06-07: Liverpool 3rd, Chelsea 2nd Points difference: 15 | Chelsea won FA Cup and League Cup, but Liverpool knocked them out Champions League semi-finals
07-08: Liverpool 4th, Chelsea 2nd Points difference: 9 | Chelsea knocked Liverpool out of Champions League semi-finals, Chelsea runners up in League Cup
08-09: Liverpool 2nd, Chelsea 3rd Points difference: -3 | Chelsea knocked Liverpool out of Champions League quarter finals, Chelsea win FA Cup

So through Gerrard's prime Liverpool were competing with Chelsea, both domestically and in Europe. Okay, he'd have missed out on a league title and a couple of cups, but not a huge difference to his CV. Obviously Gerrard would have likely improved Chelsea so they would have done better, but I can totally see why Gerrard wanted to win it all with his hometown club rather than selling out to Chelsea. Surely that takes more courage? He was the major reason Liverpool were one of Europe's best clubs in that period. I feel like people forget that Liverpool reached two Champions League finals in that time and the other years were in semi-finals and quarter finals consistently.

There's a 30 points difference there, Crimey. And knocking a side out of the CL means diddy if you don't win the damn thing.

Of course it does when you are discussing how competitive two teams were.

[Beer]

I'll give you your due, Crimey, that's the most passionate defence of Gerrard i've ever seen.

[Crimey]

I'll give you your due, Crimey, that's the most passionate defence of Gerrard i've ever seen.

I genuinely can't believe there is even a debate about who the better footballer at Liverpool is out of Gerrard and Alonso.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Gerrard lacked the courage to better himself at a bigger club e.g. Chelsea. Could've achieved a legendary cv playing with superior players. Whereas he was happy to be a big fish in a small pond at Liverpool.

Alonso take the opportunity to further his career at Real Madrid and FC Bayern and it transformed his career.

I genuinely can't believe this is an argument for who is the better player. Courage? One takes courage, and moving to Real or Bayern does not. Loyalty and sticking to something is as much a risk as change, especially when the "courageous" decision was brought on by teams not wanting him. 

Looking at another factor, would Gerrard have been £30m for Real to buy in 2009?

[Hammersmith harrier]

I don't think you can use staying at Liverpool against Gerrard, it should be admired that he played for the team he loved. What's to be admired in players who move for money or have no desire to fight for their place.

The Carraghers and Nevilles of this world are the players we fans look up to. It's easy to stay when your winning everything but I don't remember either of them once complaining about money.

[Crimey]

Even in 2009 I think Gerrard would have cost more than £30 million for Real Madrid. That was one of his best seasons ever. Problem as a measuring stick is that Gerrard was more marketable than Alonso, a bigger name across the world and generally a more flashy player as well being more important to Liverpool

[Jermaine2015]

Fantastic game going on in the CL tonight. City 1-2 Monaco at half time. Sterling scored for City, Falcao(the reborn Colombian superstar) equalized and new wonderkid Mbappe put Monaco ahead.

Aguero should've had a penalty, but was incorrectly booked for a dive. Sterling was booked for dissent and will miss the return leg.

[Jermaine2015]

Falcao misses a penalty! Absolutely dreadful attempt, probably would've ended the tie had it gone in

[Jermaine2015]

Aguero 2-2, shocking howler by Monaco GK

[Jermaine2015]

Falcao 3-2 unbelievable

[Jermaine2015]

Stones is dreadfully bad

[Fernando]

Falcao 3-2 unbelievable

I literally jizzed a little at that goal

[Jermaine2015]

3-3 Aguero this could end up 5-3 or 3-5 both defenses are woeful

[GSC]

Well this is happening

[Sponsored content]