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RJJ better than FMJ at their peaks.

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Post by AdamT Thu 04 Aug 2016, 1:44 pm

I read an interesting quote from Max Kellerman regarding this issue. He Said that Jones was at his peak when Floyd was coming to his.

Now before Jones Jr demise, nobody was questioning if Floyd was as good as him. Jones hardly lost a round from Middleweight, right up to Heavyweight. Granted Floyd had more quality opposition on his record, but this thread has nothing to do with the records, or the longevity of the two men.

Who do you guys believe was the best at their respective peaks?

I have never seen a better boxer than Jones at his peak. He was near impossible to beat in his prime. I think he would of had the athleticism, confidence and speed to beat someone of Floyd's talent by a unanimous decision.

I believe Manny Pacquiao had the power and explosiveness with his style to do better against Jones. As great as Floyd was, Jones Jr would beat that style hands down in my opinion.

Yes this thread is probably going over old ground, but there are new posters, so any replies are welcome, if anybody can be bothered.

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Post by horizontalhero Thu 04 Aug 2016, 1:58 pm

Jones better in almost every department, actually make that all departments except knowing when to retire.

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Post by AdamT Thu 04 Aug 2016, 2:00 pm

horizontalhero wrote:Jones better in almost every department, actually make that all departments except knowing when to retire.

Floyd has better defence and probably the better brain. But as you say, in nearly every other area, Jones JR is superior.

Jones is arguably the best ever on a head to head basis. He is right up there.

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Post by horizontalhero Thu 04 Aug 2016, 2:33 pm

I'm not convinced that Floyd has better defence, RJJ was almost impossible to hit in his prime, you may be right about the brain, but again in his prime Roy barely put a foot wrong. If they both weighed the same I'd pick Jones every time.

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Post by AdamT Thu 04 Aug 2016, 2:38 pm

horizontalhero wrote:I'm not convinced that Floyd has better defence, RJJ was almost impossible to hit in his prime, you may be right about the brain, but again in his prime Roy barely put a foot wrong. If they both weighed the same I'd pick Jones every time.

He does have the better defence. Jones Jr was harder to hit (maybe that is what you mean?) because of his superman reflexes and speed. Not that Floyd is any slouch, but Jones is definitely ahead in them areas.

I would pick Jones every time too.

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Post by 88Chris05 Thu 04 Aug 2016, 2:47 pm

Jones probably had the highest level of dominance of any great fighter in history during their peak years. By that, I mean that the sheer margins of his victory tended to be eye-watering in their absoluteness; he usually got a knockout or stoppage, and if he didn’t he’d at least floor the other guy a couple of times on his way to a UD in which you couldn’t give his opponent more than a round. Even when his opponents did nick a round here or there, you often got the impression that they were only being as effective in that three-minute period as Jones was allowing them to be.

There were exceptions now and then, like when Griffin matched or arguably even just edged him for eight rounds in their first fight – but going back to my point about an opponent only being as effective as Jones allowed them to be, that anomaly was put right in devastating fashion in the rematch when Jones turned up with that bit of devil inside him, which his critics said he all too often lacked.

We’ve all heard the polar opposite reasons for that unmatched level of dominance. If you’re a Jones fan, it’s because he was one of the most unique and devastating talents the sport has ever seen. If you’re a critic, it’s because he was fighting dross against whom he had a free licence to do as he pleased and because he needed to use those theatrical bits of clowning (which showed just how easy he was finding it) to hide the technical deficiencies in his game, which were exposed once his speed and reflexes deserted him.

I guess it’s about perception. Mayweather was also incredibly dominant in his peak years, but whereas Jones was a bit more of a showman and liked to show the crowd how in control he was by doing Ali shuffles, placing his hands behind his back and daring his opponent to have a swing at his wide-open chin, Mayweather was always technical almost to a fault, seldom abandoning his technique or cocoon of concentration as he took his opponent apart professionally with clinical boxing rather than improvised bits of athleticism. I’m sure Mayweather could have subjected the hopelessly outclassed likes of Corrales, Baldomir, Guerrero etc. to that kind of clowning if he’d wanted to. Arguably, this gave the impression that Jones was ‘more’ dominant when at his best, albeit his superior knockout power did give him another edge over Floyd in that regard.

I don’t read too much in to the fact that not many people were putting Floyd ahead of Roy until after Roy’s fall from grace. Mayweather was doing great things up until 2003, but as brilliant as he already was, Jones had been doing that kind of stuff for a decade himself, with no real signs of real decline. At that stage, given that Mayweather’s best wins were still ‘only’ Corrales, Castillo (not one of his greatest showings, remember) and Hernandez, why would you have any reason for him to be supplanting Jones? When the facts change, people tend to change their minds – the next few years saw Jones fall apart while Mayweather went from strength to strength, so it’s natural that the debate about who was better didn’t materialise until a bit further down the line.

For me, Mayweather’s overall career accomplishments and sustained level of virtuosity put him ahead of Jones in the all-time stakes. But if we’re isolating their peaks and looking at who was simply ‘better’ or more talented on their best days, then I’d agree and go with Roy. Haven’t seen a fighter in my life time with that much talent, regardless of whether it was conventional boxing technique or not.
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Post by AdamT Thu 04 Aug 2016, 3:01 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Jones probably had the highest level of dominance of any great fighter in history during their peak years. By that, I mean that the sheer margins of his victory tended to be eye-watering in their absoluteness; he usually got a knockout or stoppage, and if he didn’t he’d at least floor the other guy a couple of times on his way to a UD in which you couldn’t give his opponent more than a round. Even when his opponents did nick a round here or there, you often got the impression that they were only being as effective in that three-minute period as Jones was allowing them to be.

There were exceptions now and then, like when Griffin matched or arguably even just edged him for eight rounds in their first fight – but going back to my point about an opponent only being as effective as Jones allowed them to be, that anomaly was put right in devastating fashion in the rematch when Jones turned up with that bit of devil inside him, which his critics said he all too often lacked.

We’ve all heard the polar opposite reasons for that unmatched level of dominance. If you’re a Jones fan, it’s because he was one of the most unique and devastating talents the sport has ever seen. If you’re a critic, it’s because he was fighting dross against whom he had a free licence to do as he pleased and because he needed to use those theatrical bits of clowning (which showed just how easy he was finding it) to hide the technical deficiencies in his game, which were exposed once his speed and reflexes deserted him.

A great post and agree with everything you say. Cheers for the contribution.

I guess it’s about perception. Mayweather was also incredibly dominant in his peak years, but whereas Jones was a bit more of a showman and liked to show the crowd how in control he was by doing Ali shuffles, placing his hands behind his back and daring his opponent to have a swing at his wide-open chin, Mayweather was always technical almost to a fault, seldom abandoning his technique or cocoon of concentration as he took his opponent apart professionally with clinical boxing rather than improvised bits of athleticism. I’m sure Mayweather could have subjected the hopelessly outclassed likes of Corrales, Baldomir, Guerrero etc. to that kind of clowning if he’d wanted to. Arguably, this gave the impression that Jones was ‘more’ dominant when at his best, albeit his superior knockout power did give him another edge over Floyd in that regard.

I don’t read too much in to the fact that not many people were putting Floyd ahead of Roy until after Roy’s fall from grace. Mayweather was doing great things up until 2003, but as brilliant as he already was, Jones had been doing that kind of stuff for a decade himself, with no real signs of real decline. At that stage, given that Mayweather’s best wins were still ‘only’ Corrales, Castillo (not one of his greatest showings, remember) and Hernandez, why would you have any reason for him to be supplanting Jones? When the facts change, people tend to change their minds – the next few years saw Jones fall apart while Mayweather went from strength to strength, so it’s natural that the debate about who was better didn’t materialise until a bit further down the line.

For me, Mayweather’s overall career accomplishments and sustained level of virtuosity put him ahead of Jones in the all-time stakes. But if we’re isolating their peaks and looking at who was simply ‘better’ or more talented on their best days, then I’d agree and go with Roy. Haven’t seen a fighter in my life time with that much talent, regardless of whether it was conventional boxing technique or not.

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Post by Guest Thu 04 Aug 2016, 3:37 pm

Completely f*cked up the quote function there, Adam.

I'm no fan of Mayweather but whilst I appreciate his talent, I don't think he every cleaned out a division before moving on did he? Whilst one can argue that Jones' failure to meet Dariuz M(don't ask me to spell it) meant he never truly dominated the LH division but you'd have to be a complete hater to suggest he wasn't the best LH in the world at that time (sorry Tony Oakey). As Chris says, the way he dominated some opponents may have made them look like dross rather than demonstrating RJJ's greatness and in some respects I agree...he did fight some guff but there were enough good honest solid pro that he made look very ordinary, like our own Clinton Woods.

I recall Mayweather's foray into the LW(?) division when he was badly hurt by Corley and even a badly faded Mosley had him in trouble at his supposed peak. At his peak, you couldn't lay a glove on Roy.

They're both guilty of picking the weakest of Champions at times, but again I'd wager that RJJ's foray up at HW against Ruiz is more impressive for the sheer rarity of the feat. It's a case of what you like, (or don't as the case may be with Floyd), but for me, the fact that Jones never blew his own horn about being the best fighter in the world is one of the reasons he ranks higher than Floyd.

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Post by AdamT Thu 04 Aug 2016, 3:41 pm

DAVE667 wrote:Completely f*cked up the quote function there, Adam.

I'm no fan of Mayweather but whilst I appreciate his talent, I don't think he every cleaned out a division before moving on did he? Whilst one can argue that Jones' failure to meet Dariuz M(don't ask me to spell it) meant he never truly dominated the LH division but you'd have to be a complete hater to suggest he wasn't the best LH in the world at that time (sorry Tony Oakey). As Chris says, the way he dominated some opponents may have made them look like dross rather than demonstrating RJJ's greatness and in some respects I agree...he did fight some guff but there were enough good honest solid pro that he made look very ordinary, like our own Clinton Woods.

I recall Mayweather's foray into the LW(?) division when he was badly hurt by Corley and even a badly faded Mosley had him in trouble at his supposed peak. At his peak, you couldn't lay a glove on Roy.

They're both guilty of picking the weakest of Champions at times, but again I'd wager that RJJ's foray up at HW against Ruiz is more impressive for the sheer rarity of the feat. It's a case of what you like, (or don't as the case may be with Floyd), but for me, the fact that Jones never blew his own horn about being the best fighter in the world is one of the reasons he ranks higher than Floyd.

Wasn't actually quoting what he said, just that I read the quote he states Roy is better.

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Post by Guest Thu 04 Aug 2016, 3:46 pm

AdamT wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Completely f*cked up the quote function there, Adam.

I'm no fan of Mayweather but whilst I appreciate his talent, I don't think he every cleaned out a division before moving on did he? Whilst one can argue that Jones' failure to meet Dariuz M(don't ask me to spell it) meant he never truly dominated the LH division but you'd have to be a complete hater to suggest he wasn't the best LH in the world at that time (sorry Tony Oakey). As Chris says, the way he dominated some opponents may have made them look like dross rather than demonstrating RJJ's greatness and in some respects I agree...he did fight some guff but there were enough good honest solid pro that he made look very ordinary, like our own Clinton Woods.

I recall Mayweather's foray into the LW(?) division when he was badly hurt by Corley and even a badly faded Mosley had him in trouble at his supposed peak. At his peak, you couldn't lay a glove on Roy.

They're both guilty of picking the weakest of Champions at times, but again I'd wager that RJJ's foray up at HW against Ruiz is more impressive for the sheer rarity of the feat. It's a case of what you like, (or don't as the case may be with Floyd), but for me, the fact that Jones never blew his own horn about being the best fighter in the world is one of the reasons he ranks higher than Floyd.

Wasn't actually quoting what he said, just that I read the quote he states Roy is better.
That's as maybe but you still f*cked it up!

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Post by AdamT Thu 04 Aug 2016, 3:49 pm

Yeah, yeah!! Cool

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Post by hazharrison Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:12 pm

Jones was an incredible athlete; Floyd was an incredible boxer.

Floyd was the much better technician, whereas Jones could do unusual physical feats (he was super quick but had incredible power, also). You couldn’t hit either with a bag of rice. Jones was more aggressive and had a crazy offense with triple left hooks and ridiculous combinations; Floyd was absolutely superb as a super featherweight (before he became “Money” and more selective over who he fought). Jones was tested at a higher level than Floyd in his prime, also.

I don’t want to go down the old Ripped Fuel rabbit hole again (I think we’ve done that to death) but I think anyone who has been linked to PED use and is as physically unusual as fighters such as Jones/Mosley/Pacquiao etc. (not that I’m accusing Pacquiao – merely acknowledging he has been subject to ongoing accusations) will always attract suspicion (in some quarters at least).


Last edited by hazharrison on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by BoxingFan88 Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:14 pm

Commercially and from a business sense undoubtedly Floyd

Boxing standpoint, have to go with RJJ, one of the best I have ever seen

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Post by horizontalhero Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:41 pm

AdamT wrote:
horizontalhero wrote:I'm not convinced that Floyd has better defence, RJJ was almost impossible to hit in his prime, you may be right about the brain, but again in his prime Roy barely put a foot wrong. If they both weighed the same I'd pick Jones every time.

He does have the better defence. Jones Jr was harder to hit (maybe that is what you mean?) because of his superman reflexes and speed. Not that Floyd is any slouch, but Jones is definitely ahead in them areas.

I would pick Jones every time too.

Yeah -that is what I mean, not getting hit is the best defence there is.

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