Dudley Phillips

by PhilBB Wed 28 Sep 2016, 5:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

Dudley Phillips is employed by the IRFU as a "Participation Rugby Operations Officer". He used to be part of the Leinster Branch Rugby Referees: http://www.arlb.ie/?tag=dudley-philips

This weekend he is refereeing....... Leinster.

Now, I remember being told explicitly by Sin e that this kind of thing couldn't happen.

Dudley has never refereed Leinster before.

by mikey_dragon Sun 02 Oct 2016, 6:49 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Did they show Jenkins obstruction for anscombes try?

From what I seen Jenkins and a Leinster player had turned to run back, the Leinster play pushed Jenkins over and threw his hands in the air like a little girl probably shouting "obstruction" at the same time. There was another Leinster forward closer to Anscombe who tried to get close to him but couldn't. I saw no obstruction whatsoever - did you? Or have you not watched the highlights or match?

by carpet baboon Sun 02 Oct 2016, 7:03 pm

Not watched or seen it. My friend who was there (Cardiff fan) said he thought it was probably obstruction. Thats why I asked.

by mikey_dragon Sun 02 Oct 2016, 7:09 pm

He might reconsider that position once he sees the replay. I get the impression he also would have said Dudley was poor all round for all, rather than say he's a cheating Irish bar steward which I've read a lot of since last night.

by carpet baboon Sun 02 Oct 2016, 7:14 pm

No I have been of the opinion he's a crap ref for some time now. Not biassed just bad. My mate said the same.
As you have seen the highlights what went on with the try the tmo initially gave but then dudley disagreed?

by mikey_dragon Sun 02 Oct 2016, 7:16 pm

That was the one which Chum V failed to show.

by carpet baboon Sun 02 Oct 2016, 7:18 pm

Ok. I asked my mate and his answer was "f**k knows"

by Guest Sun 02 Oct 2016, 7:31 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yes, it's about delaying too long and then trying a smart 'reach' three or four seconds after having being stopped trying to get to the line.

Anyway, I can't talk on the detail as Mikey didn't see the first half, with the Leinster 'try' that was correctly disallowed by Dudley, and I couldn't watch the second half, where it's said he allowed a Lesinter try that wasn't.

It's the reach that some wrongly interpret as the fictional 'double movement'. The timing must be subjective as I don't believe there is a specified time.

by Guest Sun 02 Oct 2016, 7:33 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:They didn't show it. They pointed out a few decisions made by Phillips that were clearly wrong when blues the receiving end of it, like you'd expect but heck they were costly. The Leinster player didn't reach out straight away to score, he was tackled and both arms were on the ground - there was a definite pause before placing the ball down.

How long was the pause?

by carpet baboon Sun 02 Oct 2016, 7:35 pm

Ist the game on any catch up? You tube? Some magic Philip k dick beam it straight into your mind thing?

by Guest Sun 02 Oct 2016, 7:38 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:He might reconsider that position once he sees the replay. I get the impression he also would have said Dudley was poor all round for all, rather than say he's a cheating Irish bar steward which I've read a lot of since last night.

It would be more correct to say " he's a cheating bar steward because he's Irish ", with the mindset of those clowns. For Welsh refs it's " the Welsh refs favour the Irish because they are afraid of appearing biased ". Can't win with their twisted logic.

by **Notch** Sun 02 Oct 2016, 8:11 pm

Just saw the Ruddock try. Didn't think it was a double movement. He's brought down but his first attempt to ground the ball he grounds the ball. He was tackled and both arms were on the ground, but he makes no effort them to place the ball. At that point he's entitled to place the ball and he does place the ball. A lot of fuss over nothing in my view, but I suppose opinions are indeed like @rseholes..

These calls are always subject because how long you are allowed to hold onto a ball on the floor before you attempt to place it is completely dependent on the whims of the referee. Some would be very hot on that. But if it was going to be chalked off it would be for holding on for me. Not double movement.

by **Notch** Sun 02 Oct 2016, 8:16 pm

Leinster streetwise to milk the penalty off Navidi, Ulster streetwise to take the few chances we had and nick the win. I like what I'm seeing this season

by Guest Sun 02 Oct 2016, 9:15 pm

It was Black holding Cracknell in that gave us the penalty. Different refs react differently to it. Owens wouldn't give the penalty, while others are super quick to the whistle. I don't think Whitehouse seen it.
I'm not complaining though. Ulster do need a bit more grit and street smarts. We have also been penalised plenty of times for the same offence when our players have been held in.

by mikey_dragon Sun 02 Oct 2016, 9:21 pm

Munchkin wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:They didn't show it. They pointed out a few decisions made by Phillips that were clearly wrong when blues the receiving end of it, like you'd expect but heck they were costly. The Leinster player didn't reach out straight away to score, he was tackled and both arms were on the ground - there was a definite pause before placing the ball down.

How long was the pause?

I didn't time it, but it seemed significant enough to be questioned. I'm not sure of the rules here either. I think it was more of a case of Ospreys and Blues losing it this weekend after having looked in control for long periods of the game and been ahead for most of it on the scoreboard. You can't really say losing in the manner in which both teams did is because of cheating ref's. I thought Whitehouse was good as always, Phillips I'm not so sure about yet.

by Guest Sun 02 Oct 2016, 9:23 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:They didn't show it. They pointed out a few decisions made by Phillips that were clearly wrong when blues the receiving end of it, like you'd expect but heck they were costly. The Leinster player didn't reach out straight away to score, he was tackled and both arms were on the ground - there was a definite pause before placing the ball down.

How long was the pause?

I didn't time it, but it seemed significant enough to be questioned. I'm not sure of the rules here either. I think it was more of A case of Ospreys and Blues losing it this weekend and having looked in control for long periods of the game and been ahead for most of it on the scoreboard. You can't really say losing in the manner in which both teams did is because of cheating ref's. I thought Whitehouse was good as always, Phillips I'm not so sure about yet.

Whitehouse is pretty good, but a bit of a homer. Dudley sucks.

by carpet baboon Sun 02 Oct 2016, 9:25 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:They didn't show it. They pointed out a few decisions made by Phillips that were clearly wrong when blues the receiving end of it, like you'd expect but heck they were costly. The Leinster player didn't reach out straight away to score, he was tackled and both arms were on the ground - there was a definite pause before placing the ball down.

How long was the pause?

I didn't time it, but it seemed significant enough to be questioned. I'm not sure of the rules here either. I think it was more of A case of Ospreys and Blues losing it this weekend and having looked in control for long periods of the game and been ahead for most of it on the scoreboard. You can't really say losing in the manner in which both teams did is because of cheating ref's. I thought Whitehouse was good as always, Phillips I'm not so sure about yet.

Phillips good games I find are pretty rare. Whitehouse I rate very highly. And towards the end of last year wasn't there a youngish Italian ref who looked very promising? Or have I exempt that?

by mikey_dragon Sun 02 Oct 2016, 9:28 pm

It's not Mitrea is it?... But yeah we certainly need more of those guys in the pro12.

by **Notch** Sun 02 Oct 2016, 9:30 pm

Munchkin wrote:It was Black holding Cracknell in that gave us the penalty. Different refs react differently to it. Owens wouldn't give the penalty, while others are super quick to the whistle. I don't think Whitehouse seen it.
I'm not complaining though. Ulster do need a bit more grit and street smarts. We have also been penalised plenty of times for the same offence when our players have been held in.

I'm very pleased with that. We're a team thats been on the receiving end of other teams streetwise breakdown work, and the one common denominator of all champion teams in this sport is how well they play the ref.

by Guest Sun 02 Oct 2016, 9:46 pm

Notch wrote:
Munchkin wrote:It was Black holding Cracknell in that gave us the penalty. Different refs react differently to it. Owens wouldn't give the penalty, while others are super quick to the whistle. I don't think Whitehouse seen it.
I'm not complaining though. Ulster do need a bit more grit and street smarts. We have also been penalised plenty of times for the same offence when our players have been held in.

I'm very pleased with that. We're a team thats been on the receiving end of other teams streetwise breakdown work, and the one common denominator of all champion teams in this sport is how well they play the ref.

I'm more than happy to see our side play the ref more. In the Ospreys game a penalty went against us for holding on, but the Ospreys player wasn't supporting his weight, and the penalty should have been ours. It's up to the Ulster players to even the score, and they did so in the penalty that gave us the win.

by Pot Hale Mon 03 Oct 2016, 1:03 am

Headline from Wales Online:

"Cardiff Blues fans' rage over referee Dudley Phillips, but officials are on a hiding to nothing without a 100% neutral policy"

That kind of sums up most people's views in this topic. If you make them neutral, then who employs them is pretty moot.

by Guest Mon 03 Oct 2016, 2:26 am

Ok, just watched the Ruddock try. The try was perfectly legal. Those idiots frothing at the mouth about it either have no clue about rugby law, or all rational thought is horribly infected by prejudice.

It was predetermined that any loss would be the casualty of a biased Irish ref.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:20 am

Munchkin wrote:Ok, just watched the Ruddock try. The try was perfectly legal. Those idiots frothing at the mouth about it either have no clue about rugby law, or all rational thought is horribly infected by prejudice.

It was predetermined that any loss would be the casualty of a biased Irish ref.

The Law for this is 15.5c. It clearly states the movement of the ball must be immediate after the tackle. That makes your third sentence rather interesting.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:36 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You are complaining who employs the officials, this is where Flys comments come into it. What are they employed to do?

An official, who is under the same employment as the people who he is supposed to be impartial to, is not neutral. There is a conflict of interest there, and it is damaging to the league.

Neither is someone of the same nationality but you and Phil seem blind to that

In a cross border domestic league, the nationality issue is not as important as employment. There is no such thing as complete neutrality so we are going to have use a spectrum of acceptability. Nationality is not as far down that spectrum as the importance of paying a mortgage.

There is a reason that this was the first ever Leinster game that Dudley has officiated. We can all recognise the reason. Agreed?

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:38 am

marty2086 wrote:Because this thread has been argument free when talking about what you want to talk about?

You need to wind your neck in, you want to discuss one element of a larger problem that's like throwing buckets of water onto your burning house

If you have enough buckets, the fire goes out.

But first of all you have to accept there is a fire and it seems many on here won't.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:39 am

marty2086 wrote:
The reason the issue was raised was because some perceive a bias, particularly an Irish one. The figures show in fact that the Irish teams do worse with an Irish ref against the teams from the other nations.

Anayi specifically mentioned nationality and the perceived bias that goes with it, not employment as LD and Phil seem so obsessed with

The two biggest issues are the number and quality of the available officials and as Anayi stated it requires time and money but is an ongoing process

What figures are these?

Anayi has to mention nationality over employment as, otherwise, he'd undermine the entire IRFU set up and he can't do that as he shares an office with them.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:41 am

carpet baboon wrote:My take on it is quite simple.
He's a grown man being paid to do his job, I belive that like me and everyone else when they turn up for work they do the best they can.
As wouldn't you as a ref aspire to be at the top table reffing internationals?
So being biased aint gonna help you get to the top. It will ultimately see you unemployed.
I understand why it should be avoided if it can.
But really people, he is an adult in an adult world trying to do his job. If he's good bad or indifferent so be it.
Not really worth all the agro at the end of the day. It's just a game

If you were him, would have you accepted the game? I wouldn't have.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:42 am

Pot Hale wrote:The Welsh TMO says to award the try. The Irish ref queries it and the Welsh TMO changes his mind and says no.

Erm, the TMO was Patterson once of Ulster and now of Scotland, no?

by Guest Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:42 am

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Ok, just watched the Ruddock try. The try was perfectly legal. Those idiots frothing at the mouth about it either have no clue about rugby law, or all rational thought is horribly infected by prejudice.

It was predetermined that any loss would be the casualty of a biased Irish ref.

The Law for this is 15.5c. It clearly states the movement of the ball must be immediate after the tackle. That makes your third sentence rather interesting.

I was about to post the same thing. As you say, the law says you need to either pass or release the ball immediately or reach out and ground it over the try line immediately. Pausing motionless for a short while before deciding to reach out is the polar opposite of immediately. Hence it's a discussion point because there is an element of interpretation by the ref. Doesn't mean we're all frothing at the mouth though!

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:44 am

Pot Hale wrote:

"Apparently getting the plane down with the team". The plane? As in a special Leinster plane, or the only scheduled flight, or what? Do you think he talked to the players and made arrangements in advance?

Dudley Phillips officiating his colleagues? Is Dudley employed by Leinster Rugby? Someone else said he was employed by IRFU.

Did you see the Leinster try attempt that was ruled OK by the Welsh TMO, and was then queried by Phillips, and TMO changed his mind? Do you think Phillips should have gone upstairs on that occasion?

I'm assuming there's more than one flight to the UK out of Dublin each day.

Players in Ireland are contracted to the IRFU, so he is officiating his colleagues.

There was no Welsh TMO.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:45 am

mikey_dragon wrote:That's one plausible reason, but Dudley can see it for himself on the big screen and again, he can overrule the TMO. As it stands he didn't go upstairs and might have made the wrong decision in awarding the try. It's done now so we'll all have to move on - however it is another match that shows us how average the referees, TMOs, etc. are. If the Pro12 employed their own ref's then might that lead to better officiating? I don't know, but it would certainly please a lot of supporters in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and maybe Italy...

The Leinster players saw the replays on the screen in the ground and started walking back for the line out.....

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:45 am

Munchkin wrote:Has anyone a clip of this 'double movement'?

There is no such thing as a double movement, in Rugby Union Law. The Law does make clear that a tackled player can immediately pass the ball on to, or over, the try-line. So, if a player is tackled before reaching the try-line, that player can then reach out for the try-line, as long as the official judges that the movement was 'immediate'.

And in no way was that immediate.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 8:47 am

carpet baboon wrote:Did they show Jenkins obstruction for anscombes try?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37516113

What obstruction? He was metres from Anscombe when he was pushed in the back, off the ball, by a Leinster player.

The camera angle from behind the posts clearly shows this.

by **Notch** Mon 03 Oct 2016, 10:20 am

Griff wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Ok, just watched the Ruddock try. The try was perfectly legal. Those idiots frothing at the mouth about it either have no clue about rugby law, or all rational thought is horribly infected by prejudice.

It was predetermined that any loss would be the casualty of a biased Irish ref.

The Law for this is 15.5c. It clearly states the movement of the ball must be immediate after the tackle. That makes your third sentence rather interesting.

I was about to post the same thing. As you say, the law says you need to either pass or release the ball immediately or reach out and ground it over the try line immediately. Pausing motionless for a short while before deciding to reach out is the polar opposite of immediately. Hence it's a discussion point because there is an element of interpretation by the ref. Doesn't mean we're all frothing at the mouth though!

Well this is the issue- immediate is a term that is entirely down to a referees interpretation. Guarantee you that some top refs would have given that every time, while others wouldn't. I believe it would have been overly fussy not to award it, unless a defender was on the ball. I think that most refs would give it. It wasn't exactly a very long pause between the tackle and the grounding. If it was a second or two longer I can see it being less likely to be awarded.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 10:24 am

It's a second. It's not immediate.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 10:38 am

http://rugby.delfan.co.uk/rugby/2016-2017/Round05/Cardiff-Leinster/DoubleMovement1.gif

by No 7&1/2 Mon 03 Oct 2016, 10:49 am

It isn't a consistent time period certainly. Look at the amount of tackles during a game and the amount of time that is deemed acceptable for immediate.

by marty2086 Mon 03 Oct 2016, 10:50 am

PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Did they show Jenkins obstruction for anscombes try?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37516113

What obstruction? He was metres from Anscombe when he was pushed in the back, off the ball, by a Leinster player.

The camera angle from behind the posts clearly shows this.

He was pushed in the back because he was obstructing the Leinster players path

by marty2086 Mon 03 Oct 2016, 10:53 am

PhilBB wrote:It's a second. It's not immediate.

What is immediate?

Whats the timeframe for not being immediate?

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:00 am

marty2086 wrote:

He was pushed in the back because he was obstructing the Leinster players path

That doesn't equate to obstruction in the laws of the game, Martyn.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:01 am

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:It's a second. It's not immediate.

What is immediate?

Whats the timeframe for not being immediate?

They are interesting questions. I'm not sure of their point, however.

You can look at that and see it as immediate or not.

by marty2086 Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:02 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

He was pushed in the back because he was obstructing the Leinster players path

That doesn't equate to obstruction in the laws of the game, Martyn.

Well its not Martyn but the look from Jenkins over his shoulder and little step to his right does

by marty2086 Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:03 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:It's a second. It's not immediate.

What is immediate?

Whats the timeframe for not being immediate?

They are interesting questions. I'm not sure of their point, however.

You can look at that and see it as immediate or not.

Neither was Anscombes release as the tackler which probably slowed down Ruddock, meaning a penalty try should have been given

Worked out ok then

by SecretFly Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:07 am

Hadn't seen the try until that gif.

Yep, it's a try - I've seen many many of those in the last 10 years and by the law of averages I'd assume Welsh sides were in there too as benefactors both at Club and International levels. So why all the angst now? Because it's part of the continuing chant campaign I suppose.

by SecretFly Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:09 am

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The Welsh TMO says to award the try. The Irish ref queries it and the Welsh TMO changes his mind and says no.

Erm, the TMO was Patterson once of Ulster and now of Scotland, no?

Erm...well the Scottish TMO didn't have a clue. So much for TMOs at all games.

by PhilBB Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:15 am

I do have to question the honesty of some.

by **Notch** Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:16 am

PhilBB wrote:You can look at that and see it as immediate or not.

Well, quite.

by SecretFly Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:18 am

PhilBB wrote:I do have to question the honesty of some.

Where?

by marty2086 Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:36 am

PhilBB wrote:I do have to question the honesty of some.

by Guest Mon 03 Oct 2016, 12:09 pm

I do find this debate on bias quite fascinating. It's intriguing that opinions on something like a refereeing decision can be split by nationality. Welsh fans will all argue one way, Irish will all argue the other way; Irish will argue Wayne Barnes is a cheating so and so, the Welsh will say he was OK but we'll flip that around for Alain Rolland, etc. We see it time and time again. And we'll accuse each other of being in the wrong too. But how or why is it split so cleanly along lines of nationality? Perhaps bias is inherent? And if it is inherent could that trump the professionalism of the referee (it was previously suggested that a referee is professional therefore is unlikely to be biased)? I don't know what anyone on here does for jobs but many of us will class ourselves as 'professional' in some way, yet regardless of our professionalism it is nationality that seems to predict our opinion on refereeing matters. Is there no way that could that not extend to referees too?

It's a good debate though.

by Guest Mon 03 Oct 2016, 12:27 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Ok, just watched the Ruddock try. The try was perfectly legal. Those idiots frothing at the mouth about it either have no clue about rugby law, or all rational thought is horribly infected by prejudice.

It was predetermined that any loss would be the casualty of a biased Irish ref.

The Law for this is 15.5c. It clearly states the movement of the ball must be immediate after the tackle. That makes your third sentence rather interesting.

If it was any more immediate it would be a straight forward try. That particular law provides for the pause (the reach). If there was no pause (reach) the law wouldn't exist. Ruddock couldn't have reached for the line any sooner.

Talking about honesty; if those moaning about the try were honest they would acknowledge these try's as fairly common, instead of looking for any excuse to froth about bias.

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