Ulster 2016/2017

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Well the danger is always that life happens and he might refocus his entire life after two years in France.... were he to go.

Good luck to him, and hope he gets the most out of his time there. He's been a good signing for Ulster, and one of a few near indestructible players.

Change the coaches - fine. Until Ulster start getting some quality players it doesn't matter how many times the coaches are changed they still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The players aren't there and replacements aren't being produced so until that fundamental reality is embraced Ulster cannot get better.

The Great Aukster wrote:Change the coaches - fine. Until Ulster start getting some quality players it doesn't matter how many times the coaches are changed they still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The players aren't there and replacements aren't being produced so until that fundamental reality is embraced Ulster cannot get better.

Don't agree. Well, not completely. We can't really measure the quality of the players until we get quality coaches. I think you're putting the cart before the horse. I firmly believe better coaching would get much, much, more from this side.

That side are not playing anywhere near as well as they can. That much is obvious. Your point would be stronger if the proven quality players we have also weren't playing below their best.

Players are only measured by how others judge them. Only Best and Henderson (in the pack) are rated by Schmidt so nothing to do with Kiss et al. Joe is quite prepared to pick plenty of backs from the same team that is getting the same results as the forwards.
You can't coach speed and you can't coach height, and Ulster have too many average specimens irrespective of how well they are drilled (or not).

The Great Aukster wrote:Change the coaches - fine. Until Ulster start getting some quality players it doesn't matter how many times the coaches are changed they still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The players aren't there and replacements aren't being produced so until that fundamental reality is embraced Ulster cannot get better.

Connacht won the league with far less resources.

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Change the coaches - fine. Until Ulster start getting some quality players it doesn't matter how many times the coaches are changed they still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The players aren't there and replacements aren't being produced so until that fundamental reality is embraced Ulster cannot get better.

Connacht won the league with far less resources.

Please enlighten me in the pack where Ulster's resources were superior?

The Great Aukster wrote:Players are only measured by how others judge them. Only Best and Henderson (in the pack) are rated by Schmidt so nothing to do with Kiss et al. Joe is quite prepared to pick plenty of backs from the same team that is getting the same results as the forwards.
You can't coach speed and you can't coach height, and Ulster have too many average specimens irrespective of how well they are drilled (or not).

And those players are being judged on poor performances due to poor coaching. We know how it works. The Province does well, the players will be picked. It takes a well coached team to make a good player look good, and a poorly coached team will drain the confidence of even the good players. It's a vicious circle.

It wasn't that long ago that Ulster were well represented in the Ireland squad, and that was basically the same Ulster squad we have now.

You mention Best and Henderson, but Henderson isn't back to his best yet, and Best had a really poor game at the weekend. Are they average specimens? There's few average specimens in that Ulster side. There are average coaches.

To be fair, Aukster is right. Connahct had a fantastic pack that was vastly superior to anything Ulster have produced over the past number of years. Buckley, McCartney, Heffernan, Bealham, Ah You, Muldowney, Roux, Dillane, Browne, Muldoon, Masterson, SOBv2, Heenan, McKeon and I'm absolutely missing a few.

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Change the coaches - fine. Until Ulster start getting some quality players it doesn't matter how many times the coaches are changed they still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The players aren't there and replacements aren't being produced so until that fundamental reality is embraced Ulster cannot get better.

Connacht won the league with far less resources.

Please enlighten me in the pack where Ulster's resources were superior?

Its not about winning things but getting the best out of the players you have. I have not seen that with Ulster. All the talented backs play well individually but the team itself looks a bit blunt in attack. Leinster were like that for a few years even with their excellent pack but this season they've sorted out their attack. Last season they equaled the record for the lowest tries scored in the group stages. This season they've scored the most tries.


Ospreys, Scarlets and Glasgow are other teams who play good rugby.

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Change the coaches - fine. Until Ulster start getting some quality players it doesn't matter how many times the coaches are changed they still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The players aren't there and replacements aren't being produced so until that fundamental reality is embraced Ulster cannot get better.

Connacht won the league with far less resources.

Please enlighten me in the pack where Ulster's resources were superior?

Its not about winning things but getting the best out of the players you have. I have not seen that with Ulster. All the talented backs play well individually but the team itself looks a bit blunt in attack. Leinster were like that for a few years even with their excellent pack but this season they've sorted out their attack. Last season they equaled the record for the lowest tries scored in the group stages. This season they've scored the most tries.


Ospreys, Scarlets and Glasgow are other teams who play good rugby.

Give it up with the logic prof.

Apparently people are born taller and faster in the other provinces so Ulster need special dispensation to sign more players than the other provinces. I've heard it all now.

A few points

Neil Best is a complete and utter chube and I would ignore everything he says.
There are a number a number of inaccuracies and unsubstantiated opinions in his article.

Coaching is conducted by all the coaches and all have a role.
Kiss doesn't want Doak or Clarke and it looks like they will move on.
Whilst I have reservations about Kiss I do think he deserves a year with his own staff which is where we should be next year.

We are not world beaters but improved coaching will take us a long way and with Coetzee, Botha, Henry (with Henderson and Reidy to play if injuries) we will have a decent backrow next year which will give us a chance (unlike this where our backrow has been pathetic)

We have a very real production line of promising props coming through - see above re quality coaching.

DeMerwe has been a good servant but is struggling this year.
Without sounding too brutal my view is he is in noticeable decline ala Wilson.

As to BOD and analysis he is simply awful and seems to be a wannabee Englishman - he is so sycophantic to the English game.
Not a patch on Kay or Healey, or indeed Monye, on BT sport.

Pienaer to Saracens would not surprise me and fits the rumours

geoff999rugby wrote:
As to BOD and analysis he is simply awful and seems to be a wannabee Englishman - he is so sycophantic to the English game.
Not a patch on Kay or Healey, or indeed Monye, on BT sport.

Pienaer to Saracens would not surprise me and fits the rumours

Healey?? Ok go easy Geoff ....

Pienaars recent appearances on BT sport would suggest that he's after, or already signed with a premiership side rather than French.

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

profitius wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Change the coaches - fine. Until Ulster start getting some quality players it doesn't matter how many times the coaches are changed they still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The players aren't there and replacements aren't being produced so until that fundamental reality is embraced Ulster cannot get better.

Connacht won the league with far less resources.

Please enlighten me in the pack where Ulster's resources were superior?

Its not about winning things but getting the best out of the players you have. I have not seen that with Ulster. All the talented backs play well individually but the team itself looks a bit blunt in attack. Leinster were like that for a few years even with their excellent pack but this season they've sorted out their attack. Last season they equaled the record for the lowest tries scored in the group stages. This season they've scored the most tries.


Ospreys, Scarlets and Glasgow are other teams who play good rugby.

Give it up with the logic prof.

Apparently people are born taller and faster in the other provinces so Ulster need special dispensation to sign more players than the other provinces. I've heard it all now.

It worked for Connacht, although it was combined with excellent and consistent coaching. Our pack is utterly inadequate compared to the other provinces. At halfback our depth is very weak (although I thought Shanahan actually looked good against Exeter) and our much vaunted backline doesn't function as a team, partly because they are on the back foot and rarely have the space. We almost exclusively rely on individual brilliance to create it.

It looks like we are making some big signings to try and fix it. For example, having Botha and Coetzee in the back row, if they are actually fit, is an enormous bonus.

I think that is true and it is almost certainly to do with not compromising his residency status.

Also loads of flights back to Belfast so he can split his living time

No chance of Ulster being given special status.

Financial best off province.
Also a perception, which I share, that the talent is there but we do not identify it, if we do we do not nurture it, and if we do we often loose it - WHY !!!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
our much vaunted backline doesn't function as a team, partly because they are on the back foot and rarely have the space. We almost exclusively rely on individual brilliance to create it.

It looks like we are making some big signings to try and fix it. For example, having Botha and Coetzee in the back row, if they are actually fit, is an enormous bonus.

Our backline doesn't function because we only have 3 tactics which we use over and over again - give the ball to McCloskey of first phase , give the ball to Henderson on the second and then the ball out the back on the 3rd....

Compare how little involvement we see from Trimble now post Kiss. We just do the same play over and over again.

Big signings are why we are in the mess we are in. What happens in 2-3 seasons when they go? Will we have more homegrown forwards then?

No because nothing fundamental will have changed in our Schools/club structure and the same arguments about the IRFU will be made when we can't replace the next crop on NIEs.

Hopefully a decent backs coach will change that.

Also we will have a decent backrow to give us front foot ball.

I agree that re schools/club structure - the one positive I see is more and more players are, slowly, coming from non traditional schools and proving to be better players in terms of raw talent and dare I say it attitude.
Many players from the big schools come with a sense of entitlement but are not prepared to do the hard yards

I'd like to see us use our strong financial position and spend some cash on some decent coaches, better a well coached unit than a group of superstars that are getting ok or poor coaching.

Just look at Toulon

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To be fair, Aukster is right. Connacht had a fantastic pack that was vastly superior to anything Ulster have produced over the past number of years. Buckley, McCartney, Heffernan, Bealham, Ah You, Muldowney, Roux, Dillane, Browne, Muldoon, Masterson, SOBv2, Heenan, McKeon and I'm absolutely missing a few.

But were you saying there were great players before Lam and his coaches came in?

Buckley, - Granted he is a top player but he has been brought through by Connacht
McCartney, - Not better then Best
Heffernan, - Not better then Herring
Bealham, - Ulster had him, didnt think he was good enough or were unable to hang onto him (not sure what the story is TBH?)
Ah You, - Ulster now have him - not that great a player
Muldowney, - Would you have rated him much better than Tuohy 2 years ago?
Roux, - Leinster reject (injuries played their part in fairness)
Dillane, - Hendy is better (atm anyway)
Browne,
Muldoon, - Solid pro just like Henry
Masterson, SOBv2, McKeon - All young players who were coached and brought through by Connacht. Ulster don't play their youngsters.


Connacht had a great pack last year but its not because they signed lots of established/world class players. They signed good club players who fit their game plan or coached young and upcoming players to play that way. The difference is the coaching the players receive.

(15-9): C Piutau, T Bowe, D Cave, S McCloskey, A Trimble (captain), P Jackson, D Shanahan;
(1-8): A Warwick, R Best, J Simpson, R Diack, F van der Merwe, I Henderson, C Henry, S Reidy;
Replacements (16-23): J Andrew, C Black, R Lutton, K Treadwell, C Ross, P Marshall, B Herron, C Gilroy.

I take it vDM is playing to add some experience and leadership in the second row alongside Diack otherwise it makes no sense

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To be fair, Aukster is right. Connahct had a fantastic pack that was vastly superior to anything Ulster have produced over the past number of years. Buckley, McCartney, Heffernan, Bealham, Ah You, Muldowney, Roux, Dillane, Browne, Muldoon, Masterson, SOBv2, Heenan, McKeon and I'm absolutely missing a few.

I don't believe he is. There's a few good players in that pack, but the same can be said of Ulster. The big difference between the two sides is one is very well coached, and the other isn't.

Munchkin wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To be fair, Aukster is right. Connahct had a fantastic pack that was vastly superior to anything Ulster have produced over the past number of years. Buckley, McCartney, Heffernan, Bealham, Ah You, Muldowney, Roux, Dillane, Browne, Muldoon, Masterson, SOBv2, Heenan, McKeon and I'm absolutely missing a few.

I don't believe he is. There's a few good players in that pack, but the same can be said of Ulster. The big difference between the two sides is one is very well coached, and the other isn't.

Its not just coaching though, Connacht to an extent have players who fit what they are trying to do. You just have to look at the Exeter game to see that Ulster aren't exactly set up at times to play to their players strengths with Best deployed out wide in a narrow defence, vDM at times finds himself on the wing in attack and isn't exactly a player renowned for his pace.

Connachts players utilise their strengths and as a pack they compliment each other and work well together and when things are going well everyone looks better, whether that is better than they are its all just a matter of opinion.

If Ulster can get a cohesive forward unit then itll be telling then

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To be fair, Aukster is right. Connahct had a fantastic pack that was vastly superior to anything Ulster have produced over the past number of years. Buckley, McCartney, Heffernan, Bealham, Ah You, Muldowney, Roux, Dillane, Browne, Muldoon, Masterson, SOBv2, Heenan, McKeon and I'm absolutely missing a few.

I don't believe he is. There's a few good players in that pack, but the same can be said of Ulster. The big difference between the two sides is one is very well coached, and the other isn't.

Its not just coaching though, Connacht to an extent have players who fit what they are trying to do. You just have to look at the Exeter game to see that Ulster aren't exactly set up at times to play to their players strengths with Best deployed out wide in a narrow defence, vDM at times finds himself on the wing in attack and isn't exactly a player renowned for his pace.

I'd call that bad coaching

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To be fair, Aukster is right. Connahct had a fantastic pack that was vastly superior to anything Ulster have produced over the past number of years. Buckley, McCartney, Heffernan, Bealham, Ah You, Muldowney, Roux, Dillane, Browne, Muldoon, Masterson, SOBv2, Heenan, McKeon and I'm absolutely missing a few.

I don't believe he is. There's a few good players in that pack, but the same can be said of Ulster. The big difference between the two sides is one is very well coached, and the other isn't.

Its not just coaching though, Connacht to an extent have players who fit what they are trying to do. You just have to look at the Exeter game to see that Ulster aren't exactly set up at times to play to their players strengths with Best deployed out wide in a narrow defence, vDM at times finds himself on the wing in attack and isn't exactly a player renowned for his pace.

 

I'd call that bad coaching

It depends on what they were trying to achieve with it but I think part of Ulsters problem isn't just a lack of depth but a poor balance too

Well I agree with respect to the backrow but that will be addressed for next year.
I think that is the only lack of balance though

Connacht supposedly (according to Prof) won the Pro12 with far less resources than Ulster. I asked him to support that with evidence that Ulster were superior in the pack. Golden made a decent attempt to show that Connacht weren't superior to Ulster so at the very best if Connacht aren't superior those packs are on a par.
There is no disputing that Lam has worked wonders with the squad and that is a testament to his coaching - what would he have done with Leinster or Munster?
Maybe he would have worked wonders at Ulster too - then again maybe he wouldn't have had the McKeon's and O'Briens coming through to play his style, because there is zero evidence to suggest Ulster have similar players sleeping in the Ulster Academy. Either way it is indisputable that Ulster don't have the resources of the top teams so if it is just coaching that is lacking Ulster don't just need a good coach they need an exceptional one.

BTW if the quality of the players is irrelevant when they have an exceptional coach - why aren't Connacht doing better this season?

4 wins from 5 and leading their pool doesn't seem so bad to me!

Their exceptional coach gone and done a runner on them mid way through a season and that made them cry. Their exceptional coach didn't give them a very good pre-season for some reason best known to himself.

Their exceptional coach, though, I suppose has them top of their European pool (which surprises me but might hint at the competition he's prioritising this year) and still has Connacht in the play for a top six Pro12 finish.... so................ I guess under the circumstances, he's still proving himself.

Just wanted to say what a wasted opportunity this game today is. You don't get many chances to blood youngsters in games that don't matter, but today is one and the only kids we're playing are enforced changes.

Surely we must have a few more kids registered to play than what we're put out?

Don't knock it Redman, I'm sure it will be a valuable learning experience for Franco, Cave and Bowe....

Ball went straight out the back of the scrum. Made Shanahan look perhaps worse than he is. But ball needed controlled at the back there. Hope Shanahan doesn't take it too badly.

Oh dear, it just gets worse...

I hope Paul Marshall comes on soon.
Now there's a sentence I didn't expect to be saying.

I've seen better restarts from 10 year old son.

Scrum going well too!

Scarily, Madigan is having a decent game. Certainly out performing PJ today but that probably has more to do with his forwards dominance.

Good reffing there.

Excellent refereeing. Never a yellow card.

He's having an arm chair ride at the moment

Franco certainly seemed fired up in his try celebration...

Did say that John Andrew, Herron, Kane, Lyttle, Matt Rea, Stockdale, David Shanahan and Treadwell all are registered and are all young enough that they should start if fit.

Doesn't matter of we lose playing youngsters, as we may uncover someone ready for more games and the experience will stand them all in good stead.

Disappointed we didn't can understand if its on the back of selling season tickets for next year, build winning mentality etc, but we cannot name a strong team and then lose, that is a worse case scenario.

Shambles. I've never seen such bad handling and judgement. And from our experienced players as much as anyone.

Ulster will take that at half time. Think they may be too strong in the second half. Ulster by 10 with a TBP

Jesus Billy you've got some optimism

Is Greenwood at Strictly Come Dancing, or is he a rugby pundit? Someone needs to have a word about the bow tie!

Just see something in Ulster here today Pete, that and I have started drinking early for the Munster match

Poor restarts and missed/weak tackles aside, Ulster finished the stronger, and with a man advantage starting the 2nd half, we should pull ahead. But will we?

Feel bad for Shanahan. Poor service from Reidy has made him look really bad. Cave needs to sharpen up. His pass was intercepted, and he drops the ball close to the line.

Ball off top of lineout was unkind at one point for Shanahan, but he threw a pass that was so clearly not on.

Glad to see Marshall actually...