The consequence of a knock on/forward pass should not be a scrum, it should be a free kick

by international198 Thu 23 Feb 2017, 6:42 pm

Scrums are boring to watch because they're always going down and the referee doesn't know who to penalise. It's important to keep the scrum as an option but also I think it would be better to have a quick tap from a knock on/forward pass or a kick so that the game doesn't come completely dependent on scrums.

by GLove39 Thu 23 Feb 2017, 6:51 pm

Inclined to agree. Especially when a knock on ends up directly costing you 3 points from a scrum penalty.

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 23 Feb 2017, 7:01 pm

GLove39 wrote:Inclined to agree. Especially when a knock on ends up directly costing you 3 points from a scrum penalty.

Can't agree, the scrum is an intrinsic part of the game. If you go that route, why not a free kick instead of a lineout. We start to get 15 man Rugby League.

by international198 Thu 23 Feb 2017, 7:24 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GLove39 wrote:Inclined to agree. Especially when a knock on ends up directly costing you 3 points from a scrum penalty.

Can't agree, the scrum is an intrinsic part of the game. If you go that route, why not a free kick instead of a lineout. We start to get 15 man Rugby League.

I have changed my mind. I think you're right. I believe we should keep things as they are.

by Scottrf Thu 23 Feb 2017, 7:25 pm

Well, that's decided that. Glad we cleared that one up.

by Gwlad Thu 23 Feb 2017, 7:41 pm

by SecretFly Thu 23 Feb 2017, 8:43 pm

A conversion that goes under the crossbar should be a scrum to the other side. It would cut out foolish quick kicks and slow down the game to better improve the quality.

by Gooseberry Thu 23 Feb 2017, 9:10 pm

Wasnt this trailed and rejected as part of the I'll fated ELVS?

by mid_gen Fri 24 Feb 2017, 9:32 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GLove39 wrote:Inclined to agree. Especially when a knock on ends up directly costing you 3 points from a scrum penalty.

Can't agree, the scrum is an intrinsic part of the game. If you go that route, why not a free kick instead of a lineout. We start to get 15 man Rugby League.

Lineouts :

Are skillful and require excellent teamwork
Require a variety of body shapes
Are very rarely reset
Don't take long
Rarely result in penalties that swing games
It's clear and obvious if a transgression has been made by either side

Scrums :

Take too long
Get reset endlessly
Are a complete lottery in terms of outcome
Result in 9s sitting and looking at an available ball waiting for a penalty
Resultant penalties from lottery refereeing can swing games

Now I'm a forward and I love scrummaging, but it's just broken in the current state of the game.

Personally I would just do away with scrum penalties and turn them into free kicks. That gets rid of the incentive for teams to turn down the opportunity to play a clearly available ball in favour of standing there looking at it waiting for a whistle and penalty.

by Gooseberry Fri 24 Feb 2017, 9:38 am

mid_gen wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GLove39 wrote:Inclined to agree. Especially when a knock on ends up directly costing you 3 points from a scrum penalty.

Can't agree, the scrum is an intrinsic part of the game. If you go that route, why not a free kick instead of a lineout. We start to get 15 man Rugby League.

Lineouts :

Are skillful and require excellent teamwork
Require a variety of body shapes
Are very rarely reset
Don't take long
Rarely result in penalties that swing games
It's clear and obvious if a transgression has been made by either side

Scrums :

Take too long
Get reset endlessly
Are a complete lottery in terms of outcome
Result in 9s sitting and looking at an available ball waiting for a penalty
Resultant penalties from lottery refereeing can swing games

Now I'm a forward and I love scrummaging, but it's just broken in the current state of the game.

Personally I would just do away with scrum penalties and turn them into free kicks. That gets rid of the incentive for teams to turn down the opportunity to play a clearly available ball in favour of standing there looking at it waiting for a whistle and penalty.

And was trailled and rejected as part of the ELVS.
It just encourages teams with rubbish props to take a knee and not compete in scrums.

Either do away with them or not. I do agree its fairly broken, all though the recent changes to refereeing practises and regulations have shown some improvement in scrum completion and numbers leading to penalties.

by mid_gen Fri 24 Feb 2017, 9:43 am

Gooseberry wrote:
And was trailled and rejected as part of the ELVS.
It just encourages teams with rubbish props to take a knee and not compete in scrums.

Either do away with them or not. I do agree its fairly broken, all though the recent changes to refereeing practises and regulations have shown some improvement in scrum completion and numbers leading to penalties.

Something needs to be done.

I don't know what was wrong with the old system where hookers competed for the ball. A dominant scrum was awarded by being able nick the ball against the head, not by another (yawn) penalty.

Nowadays it feels like no scrum is ever dominant, the refs just throw a few penalties each way to make it roughly even, sometimes favouring the advancing team if they've got a *really* good shove on.

by robbo277 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 9:45 am

mid_gen wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GLove39 wrote:Inclined to agree. Especially when a knock on ends up directly costing you 3 points from a scrum penalty.

Can't agree, the scrum is an intrinsic part of the game. If you go that route, why not a free kick instead of a lineout. We start to get 15 man Rugby League.

Lineouts :

Are skillful and require excellent teamwork
Require a variety of body shapes
Are very rarely reset
Don't take long
Rarely result in penalties that swing games
It's clear and obvious if a transgression has been made by either side

Scrums :

Take too long
Get reset endlessly
Are a complete lottery in terms of outcome
Result in 9s sitting and looking at an available ball waiting for a penalty
Resultant penalties from lottery refereeing can swing games

Now I'm a forward and I love scrummaging, but it's just broken in the current state of the game.

Personally I would just do away with scrum penalties and turn them into free kicks. That gets rid of the incentive for teams to turn down the opportunity to play a clearly available ball in favour of standing there looking at it waiting for a whistle and penalty.

Potentially, but it also allows a weaker scrum to infringe with relative impunity. This is obviously a safety concern.

My solutions would be:

*Enforce a straight feed. This will force hookers to hook and in turn will create an "8 against 7" for the defensive team. The attacking team will go back and want to get the ball out quicker.
*Referee the team going forwards first. Too often the penalty goes against the team going backwards for little more than going backwards. My question would be to ask how that side going forwards managed to exert such an advantage. If it's all above board then fine, carry on. But refereeing them first will reduce the incentive to cheat, because any advantage gained will be negated by a penalty against. This is similar to how referees look for infringements by the defence at the breakdown first, to encourage attacking teams to hold onto the ball.

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 10:11 am

international198 wrote:Scrums are boring to watch because they're always going down and the referee doesn't know who to penalise. It's important to keep the scrum as an option but also I think it would be better to have a quick tap from a knock on/forward pass or a kick so that the game doesn't come completely dependent on scrums.

Maybe you could give the team awarded the scrum the option of a free kick but an automatic free kick is a bad idea. There are already a lot less scrums now that there were 10 years ago. Thats part of the reason France and Italy are both a lot worse than they used to be.

by Gooseberry Fri 24 Feb 2017, 11:07 am

mid_gen wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
And was trailled and rejected as part of the ELVS.
It just encourages teams with rubbish props to take a knee and not compete in scrums.

Either do away with them or not. I do agree its fairly broken, all though the recent changes to refereeing practises and regulations have shown some improvement in scrum completion and numbers leading to penalties.

Something needs to be done.

I don't know what was wrong with the old system where hookers competed for the ball. A dominant scrum was awarded by being able nick the ball against the head, not by another (yawn) penalty.

Nowadays it feels like no scrum is ever dominant, the refs just throw a few penalties each way to make it roughly even, sometimes favouring the advancing team if they've got a *really* good shove on.

Something keeps getting done every year. Its a running joke now.
That inlcudes doing away with genuine hooking

by Heaf Fri 24 Feb 2017, 11:16 am

I'm not sure what the answer is but it does seem wrong that a team can knock-on or throw a forward pass and then get the benefit of a penalty from the resulting scrum ...

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 11:19 am

The Straight Feed is a biggie. It is almost NEVER enforced. Every scrum france had against Scotland last Sunday the ball was thrown into the 2nd row.

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 11:19 am

international198 wrote:Scrums are boring to watch because they're always going down and the referee doesn't know who to penalise. It's important to keep the scrum as an option but also I think it would be better to have a quick tap from a knock on/forward pass or a kick so that the game doesn't come completely dependent on scrums.

The game stopping for treatment to players is boring maybe we should stop that too Rolling Eyes

by Gooseberry Fri 24 Feb 2017, 11:27 am

Heaf wrote:I'm not sure what the answer is but it does seem wrong that a team can knock-on or throw a forward pass and then get the benefit of a penalty from the resulting scrum ...

Only if they out scrummage the opposition.

They can get the benefit from a bad free kick (or a good one for that matter ) too.

by cascough Fri 24 Feb 2017, 11:40 am

I don't buy this "killing the game" stuff that is thrown about around scrums.

I don't think it's any worse now than it has been in the last 10 years despite what people in the media claim.

I like scrums, I like watching scrums.

We must have empathy for the referees. Can't remember which ref it was but a top one recently said (ie in the last couple of years) when reffing the breakdown you have to have to use common sense. If you wanted to be picky you can often single out 3 or 4 offences at every ruck but its a highly technical area and you have to show more common sense than that. The scrum is the same.

Now where the refs don't help themselves is by not refereeing the easy stuff properly, like the feeds.

Beyond that, a few reset scrums now and again are a small price to pay for keeping a vital part of the game and crucially keeping it contestable.

With respect to the OP, if you're worried about conceding penalties essentially from a knock on, get better scrummagers, or get better handlers, or adjust your gameplan. To use Scotland as an example (as they got an absolute prison shaming against France) why shouldn't France have been rewarded for their superior scrum? If Scotland were worried about knocking on due to France's Scrum then they should have adjusted their game plan accordingly and not forced offloads, played territory more, etc.

by Pete330v2 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 11:48 am

The scrums are an integral part of the sport, removing them is a ridiculous idea. Perhaps rugby league would be more your thing.

My only bugbear about modern scrums is straight feed. Despite what we're told the straight feed is rarely enforced now and it destroys the contest a scrum should be. Apart from that scrums these days are rarely boring IMO. I think some folks here may be on the wrong forums Wink

by SecretFly Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:08 pm

cascough wrote:I don't buy this "killing the game" stuff that is thrown about around scrums.

I don't think it's any worse now than it has been in the last 10 years despite what people in the media claim.

I like scrums, I like watching scrums.

I didn't even have to read more than that. That was enough for me. Long live Scrums!

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:09 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:The scrums are an integral part of the sport, removing them is a ridiculous idea. Perhaps rugby league would be more your thing.

My only bugbear about modern scrums is straight feed. Despite what we're told the straight feed is rarely enforced now and it destroys the contest a scrum should be. Apart from that scrums these days are rarely boring IMO. I think some folks here may be on the wrong forums

If you want to get rid of the scrum anywhere its league

by SecretFly Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:13 pm

Union is a game for the connoisseur. League is a game for the impatient.

by screamingaddabs Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:15 pm

Is there ANYONE on this board who doesn't agree that enforcing the straight put in would make scrums better. Can anyone see any reason why this has not come in as a directive or why the refs don't enforce it?

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:16 pm

screamingaddabs wrote:Is there ANYONE on this board who doesn't agree that enforcing the straight put in would make scrums better. Can anyone see any reason why this has not come in as a directive or why the refs don't enforce it?

It did come in as a directive a number of times, was enforced then it wasn't

by screamingaddabs Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:19 pm

marty2086 wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:Is there ANYONE on this board who doesn't agree that enforcing the straight put in would make scrums better. Can anyone see any reason why this has not come in as a directive or why the refs don't enforce it?

It did come in as a directive a number of times, was enforced then it wasn't

I know - it came in as a directive, the ref would enforce it randomly a couple of times in each game and then the directive would be forgotten about. I just don't get why it isn't enforced. It's not a hard one to enforce!

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:22 pm

screamingaddabs wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:Is there ANYONE on this board who doesn't agree that enforcing the straight put in would make scrums better. Can anyone see any reason why this has not come in as a directive or why the refs don't enforce it?

It did come in as a directive a number of times, was enforced then it wasn't

I know - it came in as a directive, the ref would enforce it randomly a couple of times in each game and then the directive would be forgotten about. I just don't get why it isn't enforced. It's not a hard one to enforce!

Makes life easier for a ref if they don't, if they don't penalise either team they can't be pulled up if they miss a feed with a bit of a slant or the opposition merely deem it to be crooked

by screamingaddabs Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:27 pm

marty2086 wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:Is there ANYONE on this board who doesn't agree that enforcing the straight put in would make scrums better. Can anyone see any reason why this has not come in as a directive or why the refs don't enforce it?

It did come in as a directive a number of times, was enforced then it wasn't

I know - it came in as a directive, the ref would enforce it randomly a couple of times in each game and then the directive would be forgotten about. I just don't get why it isn't enforced. It's not a hard one to enforce!

Makes life easier for a ref if they don't, if they don't penalise either team they can't be pulled up if they miss a feed with a bit of a slant or the opposition merely deem it to be crooked

I guess so, but that logic could be applied to any rule...

by Gooseberry Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:44 pm

screamingaddabs wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:Is there ANYONE on this board who doesn't agree that enforcing the straight put in would make scrums better. Can anyone see any reason why this has not come in as a directive or why the refs don't enforce it?

It did come in as a directive a number of times, was enforced then it wasn't

I know - it came in as a directive, the ref would enforce it randomly a couple of times in each game and then the directive would be forgotten about. I just don't get why it isn't enforced. It's not a hard one to enforce!

Makes life easier for a ref if they don't, if they don't penalise either team they can't be pulled up if they miss a feed with a bit of a slant or the opposition merely deem it to be crooked

I guess so, but that logic could be applied to any rule...

Well they apply similar logic in a lot of ruck situations too...if it gets the cball out of a pile of bodies to the side going forward its often ignored.
The issue with straight feeds is that it creats a real comeptition for the ball and a need to push the opposition off it. Now in theory thats the opposite of an issue, its what a scrum should be. But in the real world its very rare for anyone to manage to get legitmate push on and drive the opposition any real distance now without both sides flopping and an myriad of penalties occuring. Less sxcrums completed, and those that are taking longer. Less ball in play time...bad. The pressure is on referees to enable game flow and quick ball.
And by going back to genuinely competitive scrums you then get into the realms of werent we supposed to be favouring the side that didnt knock on? Which in itself is a thing ...maybe traditionaly the advantage wasnt supposed to be so great, its more a method of restarting play that allows both sides to compete for the ball. Maybe it should go back to that ...and yeah that may mean the side that "offended" could win a penalty through good play at the retsrat. So be it, as long as its a fair comeptition with the slight advantage to the other side.
Or you just admit the scrum is broken and put props out of a job, and upset the purists. Sutton United need a new goal keeper....

by Mr Bounce Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:54 pm

We were forever getting penalised in school games for crooked scrum feeds in the 80s. Whilst not wanting to sound like a "back in my day" Brexiteer, I do feel that it's the one rule today that gets strangely overlooked. And, as a former prop and hooker I believe I should get those penalties back Very Happy

by Geordie Fri 24 Feb 2017, 12:55 pm

international198 wrote:Scrums are boring to watch because they're always going down and the referee doesn't know who to penalise. It's important to keep the scrum as an option but also I think it would be better to have a quick tap from a knock on/forward pass or a kick so that the game doesn't come completely dependent on scrums.

You might want to go watch rugby league then....they only have them as a means of a pointless restart. You'll enjoy that code better.

by SecretFly Fri 24 Feb 2017, 2:10 pm

Game 'flow' beats all rules. The 'flow' of the game is impeded with straight put-ins...mostly because the ball would be there looking at both sets of forwards for too many seconds.

'Seconds of wastage' is number two on the list of things that beat rules

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 2:16 pm

screamingaddabs wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:Is there ANYONE on this board who doesn't agree that enforcing the straight put in would make scrums better. Can anyone see any reason why this has not come in as a directive or why the refs don't enforce it?

It did come in as a directive a number of times, was enforced then it wasn't

I know - it came in as a directive, the ref would enforce it randomly a couple of times in each game and then the directive would be forgotten about. I just don't get why it isn't enforced. It's not a hard one to enforce!

Makes life easier for a ref if they don't, if they don't penalise either team they can't be pulled up if they miss a feed with a bit of a slant or the opposition merely deem it to be crooked

I guess so, but that logic could be applied to any rule...

That's true but if a ref is constantly resetting scrums its not good for the game, its why you also see refs give random penalties sometimes at scrum time its easier than a reset

by cascough Fri 24 Feb 2017, 2:19 pm

Why is re-setting scrums bad for the game?

Perhaps if you have a short attention span, but personally, If it's possible I'd rather have the correct decision made.

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 2:26 pm

Its generally viewed as not as good a spectacle, if you had to reset a scrum say 10 times would you be happy about that in a game?

by cascough Fri 24 Feb 2017, 2:26 pm

Who says it's generally viewed as not a good spectacle? Sky Sports?

by Gooseberry Fri 24 Feb 2017, 2:39 pm

cascough wrote:Who says it's generally viewed as not a good spectacle? Sky Sports?

Brian Moore

The SOuthern Hemisphere

Pretty much all viewer feedback

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 2:59 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
cascough wrote:Who says it's generally viewed as not a good spectacle? Sky Sports?

Brian Moore

The SOuthern Hemisphere

Pretty much all viewer feedback

World Rugby and apparently referees too

by cascough Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:00 pm

Resetting scrums I don't think is frustrating in the slightest. The extreme example of 10 in a row might be, but it hardly ever happens. I don't care what your sport is, from time to time something frustrating will happen.

I disagree about all viewer feedback. In my experience the more casual viewer finds it frustrating, but most rugby fans I tend to associate with don't see it as a big issue.

And, FYI Brian Moore doesn't mind reset scrums at all. It's when there has been an offence that isn't penalised that get's him agitated. Very different thing.

Rugby isn't in the "entertainment business" which is a horrible phrase that's been perpetuated over the last few years. It's sport that people just happen to find entertaining. It's first duty is to the game itself and to play it properly. Any entertainment that is derived from that is purely subjective.

by SecretFly Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:04 pm

More streakers (female and with a nice figure) for the spectacle please. We all have rights. Mine are being infringed right now.

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:05 pm

You don't get it though it is in the entertainment business, for the game to grow the casual and so far none viewer are the ones that are needed.

The mess and constant resetting of scrums are why the setting of the scrum was changed.

The idea of 10 resets is an slight exaggeration but essentially your argument is that should that be necessary to complete the scrum then that should happen

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:06 pm

SecretFly wrote:More streakers (female and with a nice figure) for the spectacle please. We all have rights. Mine are being infringed right now.

That sounds like a euphemism Whistle

Who decides if the figure is nice though or is there an obvious tell? Run

by SecretFly Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:08 pm

Yes, that is a technical issue I hadn't really considered marty. Obviously the TMO decides if the figure is worthy enough to get TV time.

by SecretFly Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:10 pm

Having said that, I take that all back.. No streakers, some of those streakers are likely to outrun some of our 'fastest' players Whistle

Forget I said anything. Carry on.

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:10 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yes, that is a technical issue I hadn't really considered marty. Obviously the TMO decides if the figure is worthy enough to get TV time.

You could end up disappointed then if Nigel Owens ever becomes a TMO

by SecretFly Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:13 pm

marty2086 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Yes, that is a technical issue I hadn't really considered marty. Obviously the TMO decides if the figure is worthy enough to get TV time.

You could end up disappointed then if Nigel Owens ever becomes a TMO

You forget the rule that they have to be female. Rugby is still mostly a sexist sport, thank God - Inverdale is our mascot Wink

by marty2086 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Yes, that is a technical issue I hadn't really considered marty. Obviously the TMO decides if the figure is worthy enough to get TV time.

You could end up disappointed then if Nigel Owens ever becomes a TMO

You forget the rule that they have to be female. Rugby is still mostly a sexist sport, thank God - Inverdale is our mascot

Trump to take over from Bill Beaumont once he steps down/gets out of prison/is impeached (delete accordingly)

He can make Rugby Great Again thumbsup

by SecretFly Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:22 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Trump to take over from Bill Beaumont once he steps down/gets out of prison/is impeached/ [is assasinated] (delete accordingly)

He can make Rugby Great Again

by Poorfour Fri 24 Feb 2017, 4:12 pm

I like robbo's idea of refereeing the team going forward first - but I think you can go further. How about this?

1. Automatic TMO review when the scrum goes down. Ref blows, but no decision until the TMO has looked at it. Because it's automatic, the camera angles would be ready for every scrum, so it needn't take longer than it does to reset the scrum

2. TMO checks in strict sequence: Bind - Feed - Body positions - Feet/Movement - Body angle - Popping up / Going down

3. TMO tells Ref what he's seen and ref awards sanction (preferably with a reduction in the number of penalty sanctions) or resets (should be only for genuine slips)

They could sit Brian Moore in the TMO van for a season and just ask him "Brian, what did you see?" every time a scrum goes down.

by international198 Fri 24 Feb 2017, 5:35 pm

If the scrum goes down then the referee should always penalise the side that was going backwards. If nobody was going backwards then the referee should award a reset scrum.

by Sponsored content